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Clint
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Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
12/04/02 07:16 PM
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My wife and I just bought a little place on some acreage. The water pressure is really low. Our neighbor said to turn up the pressure at the pressure tank. He said that his is set to about 30 psi. Before I even touched ours it was set to 70 psi (on the guage near the pressure tank). At 70 psi, the flow inside is very low. I have cleaned all of the faucet screens of mineral deposits, but the flow is still low.
At the kitchen sink the flow rate is 1 gl/ 52 sec. Is this about right? Any info, web site links etc would be appreciated.
Mr and Mrs Previous owner knew absolutely nothing about the well besides depth 170' and that they thought they bought the next to the largest pump. They've been wrong on a lot of their other info so who knows.
Thanks
Clint
si vis pacem para bellum
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Hayseed
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/04/02 07:41 PM
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How old are the water lines? Do you have a spigot near the well where you could check how long it takes to fill a gallon jug there? If your tank is set at 70 psi and you have very little water pressure in the house it could be that your lines are plugged up with mineral deposits. Is there any place between the well and the house where you can access a water line? If so you could break a connection or cut into it if it is PVC and inspect it to see if there is mineral build up inside. If your lines are plugged with minerals that would explain the low water pressure inside the house.
Chris
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CJDave
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/04/02 09:46 PM
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This might be a good time to invest in a simple test setup. Buy a water pressure gauge and then attach it to a garden hose adapter so you can connect the gauge to a faucet. Attach the test setup and note the pressure with everything not flowing any water. Then open a few taps in the house and see what happens to the gauge pressure. If the gauge pressure drops like a rock, there is a constriction somewhere. By checking available faucets all the way to the pump, you may be able to isolate the problem. I almost feel sheepish asking this, but did you check under the sinks and see that the cut-off cocks are full open or at least several turns? Normally, domestic water pressure is no more than fifty pounds; forty-five even better. You can get a lot of slamming from washing machine valves and from dishwasher valves and possibly pop a hose with the higher pressures. Sometimes by LISTENING while a lot of water is flowing, you can hear water blasting past a piping restriction, be it a partially closed valve or a collapsed pipe.
CJDave
Edited by CJDave (12/04/02 09:47 PM)
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edt
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/05/02 07:34 AM
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Hi Clint another thing to check is a strainer set up one may have been installed in the line to catch and large deposits we install them at work all the time. They are inline they have a screen in them. also i have hads a problem with small rocks in the lines due to pipe breaks in the ground had to cut out clean out and reinstall new good luck EDT
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pbenven
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/05/02 08:01 AM
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I'm a little confused. Our pressure tank (bladder) is set to 18 pounds, which I believe is standard for these things. The pump pressure switch closes at around 30 and opens at around 55.
The tank with the bladder inside is used to smooth out the pressure at the faucet. Ideally, you shouldn't be able to tell when the pump kicks on at the faucet. Is this what you mean by pressure tank?
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BrianP
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/05/02 08:27 AM
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70 PSI should be all you'll ever need, and 1 Gal in 52 seconds sounds mighty weak. What do you get directly off the pressure tank? Pressure and flow are two different things, however. A good pressure should give you a good flow if nothing is preventing it and your tank is big enough.
Because your pressure measurement is at the tank, diagnosing the problem is a little more complex. What is the pressue when the water is running (full on) at the sink? If it drops fairly quickly (causing the pump to come on) you probably need to repressurize your tank. You see, water won't pressurize so its the air inside the tank that makes the pressure. If there is only a quart of air, then you'll get a couple of quarts of water out before the pressure drops to nothing.
If it is an old tank, which typically looks like a cast iron thing, thats a likely cause. These 'drown' and have to be pressurized quite frequently. You need to practically drain out the water, close the water valves, and pump air in to somewhere around 30 to 70 PSI. Basically the tank should be about 1/2 full of air. New tanks (which usually look like fat propane tanks) have an air bladder and don't have to be repressurized usually, but if they do (for example if the air valve leaked) the procedure is more or less the same. If you have an old style tank, find an excuse to replace it with a new one.
Downstream from the tank (i.e. towards the faucet) check every valve and make sure they are open all the way. If you know how to solder, consider replacing all of the valves with ball valves - they restrict the flow much less when open, usually don't leak, and you can easily tell if they are open.
Look for any filters. Usually these are downstream from the tank. Replace any filter elements and make sure nobody did something brilliant like install a filter with a 3/8" pipe opening onto a 1/2 water pipe. I've seen it done - in fact many filters with 3/4" fittings have only a 1/2 hole in them, which restricts the water flow by 50% to 75%.
I put two filters in parralel with a bypass system to make the cartriges easier to replace. Looks like a plumber's nightmare but it works good.
Of course, the pipe (especially from the tank) could be blocked, perhaps by calcium due to hard water, and that would entail replacement. The only way I know of checking that is cutting the pipe and having a look. you can easily solder it back together with a coupler (if you know how to solder).
Otherwise, follow the pipe and look for valves, filters, and anything else (such as a crushed pipe) which could be the culprit. I learnt a lot about poor water flow from a good well in my first country house. My current system is nothing magical (1" pipe from well to tank, 3/4" to filters, softener, and distribution, and 1/2 to each bathroom, hose, etc.) and I have loads and loads of water, so it should be the same for you.
Good luck and tell us what you find.
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/05/02 09:07 AM
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With 70 pounds of pressure, you flat out should be moving more water than you are.
How far is the well from the house? Are we talking several hundered feet all of which is uphill, or is it real close? Is the pump submerged, or in a well pit/house/basement? What kind of plumbing do you have, hard/soft copper, PVC, etc? And what diameter is the plumbing?
I've seen people plumb with some pretty strange pipe. When we were getting ready to do our plumbing here, I looked into solar pumps. One of the suggestions for solar pumps is to use plumbing that is one size larger than normal. In other words, use 1" where you would normally use 3/4", etc. The theory is that the larger diameter allows for more water to flow while requiring less pressure to provide the same quantity of water. Therefore, you can set the pump/tank pressure lower which is easier on a solar pump.
Do you have the same flow rate all through the house? Or just at one faucet?
SHF
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Mike_Dumond
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/05/02 09:29 AM
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Morning all. 1st point of info, pressure tanks. Set the air pressure at 2 lbs below your kick in pressure. pbenven, yours should be at 28. The idea of checking water quanity closer to the pump is a good idea. The biggest problems with flow rates are: 1, An inline filter that is blocked. (This is the one you want to see) or 2, older houses using galvanized piping. (This is the one you don't want to see) If you have the galvanized pipes, and they've been there any amount of time, it's guaranteed that the inner diameter has decreased. I've seen some 1/2 inch pipe that had less than 1/16th left. The only way to solve this problem is to replace the piping with copper. Make sure your main house feed from the tank is 3/4, with 1/2 lines running from it.
If someone comes along and suggests flushing the lines with acid, stay away from it. While it might help for a bit, it does leave acid residue imbedded in the lines, and the problem is only going to be fixed for a short while. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but changing the pipes is the only sure way to solve this problem.
So others may live
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turnkey4099
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Mike_Dumond]
12/06/02 07:32 PM
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Just an add-on to Mikes. He is correct, the bladder pre-charge (done with the tank empty) is set to about 2psi below the pump cut-in pressure.
Proper pressure setting for normal systems is 20psi between cut in/out, Almost all residential systems will be set 30/50 or 40/60 rarely 50/70 as above 60psi it is beginning to cause excess wear on fixtures.
If you have an old, non-bladder, galvanised tank, my choice is to replace it with a bladder type. It just isn't worth it to me to be fiddling with draining/recharging the old tanks. The problem under discussion IMO is for sure blocked pipes.
Someone said to replace with copper. Again IMHO plastic is better all around; cheaper, will accept a bit of freezing, no problems with galvanic corrosion, won't pin-hole, etc.
Harry K
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Clint
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: turnkey4099]
12/06/02 08:05 PM
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Thanks all for the info.
Sorry I haven't gotten back to provide info sooner -- finals are getting in the way of my internet time.
I haven't measured the flow near the tank or the well. To answer some of the questions posed: the pump is submerged, piping is all PVC, the distance from the well to the house is about 150' - slight downhill, no filters of any sort, and yes the spigots under all of the sinks are wide open.
As far as recharging the tank. I am assuming there's a schrader valve and if I understand correctly there should be about 2 lbs less air than the pump turn on pressure (e.g., if the pump is to come on at 30 psi, the tank should have 28 psi) is this correct?
We live in Oklahoma and the water has a lot of minerals so I am starting to think this may be the problem.
I'll measure output at the tank and post the results. The well head is capped and I haven't seen a way to hook a hose directly to it, so to my knowledge I can't test the pressure there.
Thanks again for the info.
Clint.
si vis pacem para bellum
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/07/02 11:08 AM
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It seems like 150' distance to the well, with a slight uphill slope from well to house would reduce your available pressure a little, but not much. I've heard of people with longer runs. Pumps typically can push water farther than they can suck it, which is an advantage of a submerged well. Your pump is basically pushing the water straight up the well, and then another 150' up to the house. That may be why the pump pressure is set at 70, to compensate for the run so that you would still have reasonable pressure in the house. Some of the other guys here know more about the pumps and tanks than I do, so they'll correct me if I'm wrong.
Keep us posted when you can check the tank output. I'm still guessing corroded lines. If your well is put together like mine, there is a plastic line buried 4' deep from well to house. After That, it's galvanzied and hard copper.
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egon
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/07/02 11:22 AM
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Clint: How large is your pressure tank? How long does it take for the tank pressure to drop? How long does it take for the tank pressure to build up?
Egon
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turnkey4099
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The run and slight rise shouldn't cause a noticeable drop in pressure. Even if the pump is 150 ft in the well it is only pushing water from whatever the water level is. Say static is at 50 ft, the pump is only raising it 50 ft. As for run, 150 ft isn't even worth calculating unless the pipe is grossly undersized. You will have more restriction (pressure loss) going through a couple a t's or el's than 150 ft of pipe. My well at one time was 1/3 mile distant with no problems (of course it was basically at the same elevation). The pipe being PVC is a puzzle. I haven't heard of that type pipe corroding. If it transfers to iron or copper in the house that would be my suspicion. Everything looks for sure like blocked pipes or an obstruction somewhere in the house.
Harry K
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BrianP
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
12/16/02 01:49 PM
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Back from deer hunting.....
PVC from the well I can understand, do you mean PVC to the sink too? Volume is more likely a problem from the tank to the sink, or tank pressure, as noted. Even a dribble into the tank will provide good flow at the sink if the setup is ok. On charging the tank, don't confuse the pressure of the air with the amount of air. I think the rull of thumb with an old non-bladder type is to 1) shut off the pump 2) open a valve downstream fromt he tank, like at a sink) 3) pump air into the tank till the bubbling stops, usually 1/2 way 4) close the valve at the sink so no more water comes out 5) pressurize the tank to the desired PSI.
I wonder - could it be that the one way valve between the tank and the well is leaking?
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Clint
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: BrianP]
01/16/03 11:18 PM
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Sorry I did the disappearing act and haven't posted an asnwer, but anybody who was wondering what is was here you go. Unfortunately school absorbs most of my time so when I do get to work outside it's a flurry of action doing everything that I can on my ever growing "To Do" list.
After checking all of what was previously posted above we still lacked pressure.
The flat spot for the house was cut into the side of the hill (5-10% varying grade I'd guess). Our well head sits about 150' from the house about 10'-15' higher than the pressure tank etc. About 10'-15' from the house (towards the well) the slope hits the level ground.
During December we went about 3 weeks w/o any rain. I found water pooling at the base of the slope. The slope was dry, except for the one spot. Previously, when it rained, even just once or so a week a large area where the slope hits the flat spot would stay wet (the Oklahoma clay doesn't drain well). Also, the previous owners did nothing about drainage. When it rains, a couple of acres of water flow downhill towards the house. But since it's been dry for almost 3 weeks everywhere else dried up, except the one spot.
The leak in the pipe coming from the well to pressure tank was such that most of the leaking water went straight down, but only a little moved horizontally and breached the surface.
I don't think my explanation is coherent, but I hope it makes sense.
Thanks to all who posted advice. I had not a clue where to start.
Clint.
P.S. We bought the 5 acres as a trial run to see if we really wanted to live the rural/hobby farm life. We can already tell you that we will be bying 80-100 more. My wife says that I need to finish school and get a job first though.
si vis pacem para bellum
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BrianP
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
01/17/03 08:12 AM
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Sorry Clint but we can't help you unless you tell us about your setup, pressures, etc.. Water flow and water pressure usually has absolutely nothing to do with the well, amount of water available in the well and so on. Basically a pump forces water into a holding tank. Because of a once way valve (is it working?) the water only flows in. Depending on the size of the tank, pressure setting on the switch, and how much air is in the tank, the pressure in the tank will rise until the pressure switch shuts off the pump. If you have a typical 40 gallon tank that is properly pressurized water will come out of it like a fire hose, at least for the first 10 or so gallons, even if you disconnect the pump, fill up the well and so on. If it doesn't that narrows down the possible solutions. If it does, that narrows down the possible solutions. We need you to answer our questions and various pressures and stuff. Maybe you can post a picture of your tank, etc.? Again, it probably has nothing to do with your well.
Did you drain the tank? if it only has a bit of air in it, the pressure doesn't matter - it may delivery a teaspoon of water and the pressure will drop to 0?
What happens to the pressure at the tank when you run the kitchen sink? Have somebody record the pressure every 10 seconds and run the water. Post the results. Do the same thing, but this time drain the tank directly. If the flow rate much greater than the rate at the sink?
If you shut off the power to your pump, what happens to the tank pressure? Does it drop at all in 10 minutes?
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Clint
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: BrianP]
01/17/03 11:56 AM
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Brian P,
The purpose of my previous post was to say that the problem is fixed. When we fixed the leak the low pressure problem went away. I don't know enough about the system to hypothesize why. All I know is that everything works fine now. I posted to let others who had posted advice that everything works and to thank them for their help.
Clint
si vis pacem para bellum
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lblair
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
01/17/03 08:49 PM
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My well only runs the garden hoses. I keep the pressure to come on at 30 and shut off at 40. The lines are all short and new. I get real god pressure at the hoses. Our house was on the well untill village water came by and i used the same pressures then and we had good flow. The house is all 3/4 copper and some 3/4 PVC then down to half and each water sink/tub and such. Sounds like you may have a problem with plugged lines. If you have alot of old lines 70lbs might cause a blow some place. Maybe not...but ide be thinking that. Im a worrie wart when it comes to stuff like that and i cant seem to rest untill its fixed. That could be why i have high blood pressure which is higher than 70lbs...
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BrianP
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Re: Water Pressure -- Is there a norm?
[re: Clint]
01/20/03 07:50 AM
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Oooops. Reread your post and spotted the leak part. I didn't realize that that was your problem. Usually leaks aren't unless of course, the one way valve near the pressure tank is leaking or not there.
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