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Baker monitor frost free hydrant
01/22/08 01:25 PM
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I have a greenhouse business with 9 hydrants, had 3 replaced with the baker hydrants. One in the greenhouse that has not been heated turns on by itself. After watching it closely, after temps. getting down to the 20's it freezes up a little every time pushing the handle up after several nights it is pushed up enough to turn it on.
The first time I found the problem it had been on for a day or more and washed out under my weed matt. The landscaper came and adjusted many times and said it was draining. I cant keep my greenhouse warm for a frost free hydrant.
Any advice?
Ruth
Don't fear your life one day will end, fear you did nothing with it.
Edited by gardeningangel (01/22/08 01:56 PM)
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RichZ
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Hi Ruth. Welcome to CBN!!
The frost free hydrants on my farm have been the bane of my existance. Luckily the two in the most remote parts always work in the coldest weather, but I have three near my barns that always freeze. I've dug them up twice and put more stones and gravel under them, so the drainage is fine, yet they still freeze, and I can't figure out why. But I found an easy solution for one in my main barn that freezes. I wrapped it with the pipe heating wire (can't remember the official name), and then covered the heat wire with pipe insulating foam covers. I dug down about a foot or two, and made sure that the wire and foam covers were a little below the ground. since my barn has electricity, this was easy, and this hydrant never freezes anymore. I assume that you have power in your greenhouse, and if you do, this will work well. You can get the pipe heater wire and the foam covers at any good hardware store.
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
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egon
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: RichZ]
01/23/08 09:30 AM
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http://www.doityourself.com/icat/heattape
A site with heat tape products. Lots more on Google but this is just for preliminary information. 
On the problem hydrant does it drain properly or is there some crud blocking it? Is it deep enough?
Egon
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speedbump
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: egon]
01/23/08 12:26 PM
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You could also check out their Website. Give them a call and asd why it is doing this. They may be able to help you repair the problem.
http://www.bakermonitor.com/domestic_new/yard_hydrant/index.html
bob...
Pumpsandtanks.com
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: egon]
01/23/08 09:57 PM
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I had it replaced today it sounds like the old and new one is draining. We will see tonight if its the freezing, it has been getting down to 7 here lately and I finally turned off the heater in the greenhouse after replacing the inner guts of the hydrant. If it freezes its not draining well. The others outside are great. When he pulled the insides out of the pipe it almost didnt make it, the greenhouse ceiling was very close to being too low and its 12 ft tall. Yes it is deep enough I would say a easy 4 ft like its should be and 3 or more above ground.
Don't fear your life one day will end, fear you did nothing with it.
Edited by gardeningangel (01/23/08 10:50 PM)
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Pat
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Whether the hydrant freezes or not is a factor of the tug of war between the deeply buried part and the above ground part. If they are buried significantly below the frost line they tend to not freeze but when they do it is often poor drainage. They typically have a "weep hole" which is threaded. You can put a tube to that and run it a little ways away from the hydrant to a "dry well" which is essentially a small pit dug out of the ground and filled with sand/gravel to help dissipate the "slug" opf water that is left in the hydrant when first turned off.
Having hydrants buried deeper and NOT sticking so high into the cold air helps them to not freeze. The bottom of the hydrant is in dirt above the freezing temp but the exposed metal of the hydrant up in the frigid air wins the battle and the valve freezes.
Heater tape is a brute force solution that is not needed in the vast majority of installations that are properly done (buried deep and not sticking too far into the air.) Insulating the part in the air and down into the dirt nearly to the frost depth helps conserve the heat that is present at the bottom of the unit (where the valve is located.)
With a deeply buried hydrant and not too much exposed metal in the air AND plenty of insulation on the above ground part it is truly rare that you would have one freeze up. There is nothing particularly wrong with using heater tape to avoid a freeze up BUT... if a winter storm or misadventure causes you to lose power when it is really cold then the heater tape which has lured you into a false sense of security does nothing and the hydrant freezes.
The best deal is to put a bit more effort into a good installation. Bury deep, expose less metal in the air. Insulate the above ground metal. Use plenty of sand/gravel to take the discharged water.
Hope this helps.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: Pat]
01/24/08 07:20 PM
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I am so frustrated, we replaced the guts of the hydrant yesterday, the handle was up again this afternoon. On our property we have 10 hydrants counting the one for our home and not one has been doing this, they are all buried the same, 4 foot down. I think the drain is not draining completely, but can hear it drain when turned off. The landscaper is saying it is the pressure, because its the first hydrant of the 9. I thought pressure was equal in the pipe. This only happens when its really cold and when the greenhouse is heated it don't happen, dont that say its the cold weather? I guess I am a stupid girl, and I don't understand pipes
Don't fear your life one day will end, fear you did nothing with it.
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speedbump
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Why don't you use the link I posted and ask someone there what the problem is with the Hydrant?
bob...
Pumpsandtanks.com
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RichZ
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: Pat]
01/25/08 08:28 AM
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Pat, having read your posts for years, I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and experience. I have three frost hydrants that I've dug up and added more gravel and rock to several times. Eventually, I even put 55 gallon drums under them filled with rocks, and STILL they freeze up. I guess they must be defective, but since I've had them for several years, I doubt that I'll be able to get them replaced for free. But this spring, I think I'll dig them up and replace them. Happily, those three hydrants are close enough to other hydrants, so that I don't have to lug buckets or hoses too far, but I would rather that they worked. That's why I put them in. 
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
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Pat
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In a static situation with no flow from any of the hydrants the pressure is equal in all places in the liquid, plus or minus any head due to differing elevations. There is roughly one half of one PSI per foot of head. So if one of your hydrants were lower than another by 10 feet it would have about 5 PSI more static pressure. Your differences in elevation are likely less than this and 5 PSI (or probably significantly less) compared to your typical static pressure means this is probably NOT THE EXPLANATION irrespective of your personal plumbing (doesn't matter if you are girl, guy, or it.)
If the temps and wind experienced by the above ground part of the various hydrants is similar and the height above ground is about the same and bury depth the same then there isn't much left to cause the different results. Either there is something different about the hydrant and the odds have been reduced by the rebuild or there is something different about the ability of the hydrant to drain and I suspect this is the likely culprit. If the water doesn't drain down properly the hydrant can freeze up.
Not a popular suggestion I'm sure but the cure will include digging down and enlarging the dry well. You may even have to dig a trench off to the side, preferably down hill if there is any slope. Then run a tube from the drain hole at the bottom of the hydrant through the trench to an adequate dry well filled with gravel. To ensure a long life for the dry well, line it with geotextile add the gravel fill and then wrap the geotextile over the top of the gravel before back filling. This will prevent dirt form infiltrating the gravel in the dry well and reducing its functionality.
I'm sorry I don't have a magic cure just sound engineering that requires real work. If the other hydrants are not too far away and you just want the problem to go away with the minimum of effort. remove the offending hydrant. If you want it to work you will have to solve the engineering problem andn so far theleading suspect is the draining action.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Pat
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: RichZ]
01/25/08 09:24 AM
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Rich, Thanks for the kind words. Again, just think of anything I say that may be useful as a tax rebate.
I know what you mean, you installed the suckers 'cause you wanted them there. About the barrel... did you punch lots of holes in it to take advantage of the "AREA"? IF there were no holes or just holes in the bottom you may have created a tank to hold water and once filled it might not drain fast enough.
larger dry wells, preferably down hill form the hydrant, even if you have to plumb a drain line from the bottom of the hydrant are a good thing when you have drainage problems. Do not bring the dry well and its gravel too close to the surface. You don't want surface water getting into it and fillling it up too easily.
Also do not discount the deleterious effect of having too much hydrant up in the air. If you expose enough hydrant to the cold air it will chill the lower part of the hydrant and let the valve freeze. Just think the warmer temps below the frost line are in contact with just a little of the hydrant below the frost line and the rest of the length of the hydrant is on the other side of the ledger sheet trying to freeze the hydrant. You want the forces of the warm side to overcome the forces of the evil cold side and prevent the valve from freezing. Toward this end you want to bury deep and expose only a little above ground. Adding insulation, especially above ground will help conserve the little bit of heat available to the hydrant from contact with warmer dirt at the valve level. IT is rare that a "properly" installed hydrant will freeze up, especially if insulated.
Only in the most extreme cases should heater tape ever be needed. Heater tape is a great and wonderful thing but if the power goes down you will have yet more problems if you rely on it.
Oh, about being defective to freeze up.... not so sure about that. If they leak and the riser pipe stays full it could promote freezing but if the valves work OK and don't leak then they freeze when the valve part gets too cold. (see above discussion about evil forces of cold vs the warmth of mother earth) It is rare but possible that the adjustment on the rod controlling the valve is just right so it is good when not really cold but when very cold it contracts and causes a slow leak which overcomes the drain system eventually (even a 50 gal drum) and then freezes as water stands in the pipe above ground level.
Buried deep with not too much above ground or plenty insulation above ground or preferably both and they should not freeze if the valve is adjusted right.
Oh, why a tax rebate? I spent a great deal of my life in school, much of it in evening classes later on. The Viet Nam GI bill paid for some and later my then employer (Fed Gov/DoD) paid for both trips through grad school. So you and the other US taxpayers funded my degrees for which I am grateful. Thanks everyone! Putting a little back is the least I could do.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (01/25/08 09:32 AM)
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RichZ
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: Pat]
01/25/08 12:27 PM
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Pat, yes I have holes in the drums throughout, but there IS a difference in elevation. I'll try the easy fix first, and insulate them, but I never thought about the elevation. The hydrants that are highest (by about 20 feet) ALWAYS drain well. It's the ones at the lowest part of my farm that freeze up.
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: RichZ]
01/26/08 12:06 AM
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Well guys unfortunately I wished it was the elevation, this hydrant is the highest one on the line. It has to be the drain underground. I was hoping for a easy above ground fix. With it being 4 ft down and me 5 ft its not going to be easy, its in the isle of the customers and not very wide maybe 3to 4ft wide. That has to be the reason. I will try it next.... oh I hate digging. hahaha Thanks again guys.
Don't fear your life one day will end, fear you did nothing with it.
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Pat
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: RichZ]
01/26/08 09:40 AM
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Rich, The drum idea is fine but it needs to be downhill from the bottom of the hydrant.
Sometimes we lose sight of the physics behind something supposedly as simple as a frost free hydrant. Why should it be frost free? Only because it is installed with the bottom (valve location) below the frost line.
But what if it is really cold and the wind is blowing, can't the exposed upper end of the hydrant loose more heat than the little bit of the hydrant below the frost line can supply (borrowed from mother earth below the frost line) and wouldn't this freeze the water at the valve? Yes, that is often what happens.
Another problem is if the drain action is impaired and the vertical pipe does not drain quickly and completely. The water in it can freeze by being in contact with the pipe that is exposed to the low temps and winds.
Even with a 55 gal gravel filled drum to take the draining water, if it does not dissipate the drain water quickly enough or if it fills or partially fills from ground water it will not be conducive to proper drain down for the hydrant.
It seems frustrating and a lot of hassle but if the soil is not "perking" good enough and you want the hydrant to work, there are not many choices that will take yo to success. I don't prefer heater taps because of the power outage problem but when powered up it will prevent a freeze. Sometimes running electricity to the site is a big hassle in its own right. Proper draining, DEEP burial, and insulation above ground are key elements.
I have never seen a USDA (Forest Service) hydrant more than a foot above ground. I have no idea how much they bury but they don';t expose a lot of metal above ground. I have never seen one of theirs with insulation or heater tape nor have I ever encountered one that froze up.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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RichZ
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: Pat]
01/28/08 10:04 AM
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As usual, Pat, you're giving me a good idea. I think that as soon as we get a thaw, I'll wrap the exposed parts in pipe insulation, and hopefully that will help.
Thanks for the idea!!!
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
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Pat
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Re: Baker monitor frost free hydrant
[re: RichZ]
01/28/08 11:09 AM
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Rich, That may be all it takes to let the Forces of warmth and good overcome the evil forces of cold.
Yet another little tax rebate!
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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