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DeereHunter
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Temp at which H20 will freeze
10/24/02 12:51 PM
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This question is kinda strange. I know that water will
freeze at 32F, but running water, on the other hand, seems
to run without freezing at a much lower temp. Also, some
water, like the spring water on my farm, even though there's
a little spot where it becomes a small pond seems to freeze at
a much lower temp. The other morning, when it was 25F all
water that was hanging around (with all the rain) was frozen
solid, but this little pond was unphased. Also, in the past
winters, when temps dip to the low teens, this pond still is
unphased. Its this because of the ground water temp
that is warmer than the outside temp, or maybe minerals in
the water that make the freezing temp below 32F??? If anyone has any ideas, please share them. thnx
Shawn
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tenebrous
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: DeereHunter]
10/24/02 02:34 PM
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Moving water still freezes at 32 degrees but if the molecules are moving around they are generating heat. If the air temp is 32 the water still may not be 32 or freezing. The pond is a little different in that the depth will effect when its surface reaches freezing temperature. The deeper the lake or pond the longer it will take to freeze. Also the spring is constantly pushing water into that little pond that is warmer than 32 degrees that is why it will not freeze. There is a spring not far from me in New York State that flows all winter.
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Hydraman
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: tenebrous]
10/31/02 07:09 PM
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My father told me a story about a man back in the 'good old days' that thought that since the water out in the middle of a certain lake never froze; it would be suitable to put in the radiator of his car in the winter time!! Guess what the man learned the hard way!!!  Needless to say, he found that anti-freeze was cheaper!!!  
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Gary_in_Indiana
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: DeereHunter]
11/01/02 12:03 AM
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As I recall, the 32 degree freezing point for water is at sea level. Above or below sea level changes that number.
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Hank
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32 degree freezing point for water is at sea level
Now we're really stretching to recall that high school science  Isn't there some stipulation in there about a certain barometric pressure, too? Raise or lower the pressure, and the freezing/boiling points change.
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RobS
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: Hank]
11/01/02 04:32 AM
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There is a Thermodynamics chart called a phase diagram that shows the relationship of temperature and pressure to the phase of a substance... solid, liquid or gas. There is a particular combination of temperature and pressure that water will occur at all three phases. This is called the triple point. The same chart explains why water boils at a different temperature at altitude and why you see different cooking instructions for high altitude conditions
Rob
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fenneran
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: RobS]
11/01/02 05:51 AM
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Here are some real esoteric links for those really interested in some technical reading:
What is 'unfreezable water'?
Freezing Water Myth
Physics of Freezing
Theoretical Aspects of the Freezing Process
Enjoy! 
Frank
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pbenven
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: Hank]
11/01/02 07:47 AM
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Raise or lower the pressure, and the freezing/boiling points change
That sounds right, since you can boil water by placing it in a vacuum without applying heat.
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jerrym4
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: DeereHunter]
11/01/02 09:33 AM
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After taking years of meteorology classes one of the few things I can remember is that water does not have to freeeze until 40 below. This is called super cooled water and can be commonly found in cirrius clouds. One of the conditions for this water is purity.
A neat test of this is to wait one morning when the temperature is 40 below or colder (not counting windchill mind you) and get a glass of water and toss the water into the air. Before the water hits the ground you will hear a faint crack sound. Thats the sound of the water turning into ice.
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Fishman
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: jerrym4]
11/01/02 09:53 AM
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Neat! I'll be sure and try that the next time it gets that cold here in Texas 
Fishman
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Al_Wa
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: DeereHunter]
11/06/02 01:36 PM
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Water is most dense at + 4 deg C. The water at the top of the pond will freeze when the temperature at the bottom is 4 Deg C.
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egon
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: Al_Wa]
11/06/02 02:41 PM
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As someone has already mentioned it all depends on the triple point and purity. There are no exact temperatures.
Egon
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Al_Wa
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: egon]
11/08/02 12:23 AM
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Most ponds I have seen are at atmospheric pressure and without knowing the degree of impurites and dissolved Oxygen, I'll stick with the pond can form ice when the bottom is at ~4 deg C.
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DeereHunter
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: Al_Wa]
11/27/02 09:35 AM
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When I originally posted this message I never realized all the responses that it would cause. I thought maybe the water purity (such as minerals) in the water can cause its freezing
point to dip below 32F. anyway, the other morning was 21F
and there was no ice at all anywhere on my pond. It tastes great too!
-Shawn
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Al_Wa
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: DeereHunter]
11/27/02 12:13 PM
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You're correct the addition of ionizing compounds to water will lower the freezing point. One mole of a compound will lower the freezing point -1.86 deg C/mole. A mole is the sum of the atomic weights of the atoms in the compound expressed in grams. For example salt, NaCl has a mole weight of 28 grams (11+17).
28 grams of salt mixed in 1000 grams (1 Liter) will lower the freezing point to -1.86 deg C.
I doubt that your pond has a significant ionic content. When your pond just freezes drop a temperature probe to the bottom and if your still dry, let me know what you get.
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Alan_L_Texas
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: DeereHunter]
11/27/02 09:43 PM
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If it gets below 32 at a pond in the woods and nobody is there to see it, does it freeze?
Alan L. - Texas
North of Mustang
South of Bugtussle
On the Banks of Buck Creek
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MikePA
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: Alan_L_Texas]
12/01/02 10:59 AM
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If it gets below 32 at a pond in the woods and nobody is there to see it, does it freeze?
Depends if there's a bear in the area.
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DeereHunter
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Re: Temp at which H20 will freeze
[re: MikePA]
12/11/02 10:09 AM
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OK, a few days ago, the temps outside where below
10F. My big pond had ice about 2 inches thick, but
the small one wasn't even the slightest bit phased
by the temp. There wasn't even any ice around the sides.
Some my say, if must be the ground water temp and
its just too warm there. Ok, if this is true but further
down the path of where the small flows downhill, nothing
was frozen. I have a few other springs, and they were
froze almost 10 feet from the opening, but this wqas at least 100 feet away. I didn't bother walking down more to see
if it was going to freeze at some point.
Maybe this isn't water at all but a moonshine still opening 
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