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Keeping a Pond Clean...
12/05/07 02:26 PM Attachment
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We have 2 small ponds on our 10 acres. One is back in the woods and stays real clean and clear. The other is up closer to the house and lays next to the fence that seperates me from our horse breeding neighbor.
My problem is that the lay of the land is such that all the rain water runs across my neighbors property into the pond. This wouldn't be a bad thing except she has overgrazed her pastures and they are full of manure. Therefore, the runoff is nutrient rich and my pond stays green all the time.
It is a pretty pond with large oak trees on the backside and brush and tall grass along the sides. Our house sits on a small hill and you can see the pond clearly from our deck.
Is there anyway to clean up the water? Someone told me to get some grass carp and that they would help. The pond is approximately 8 to 10 feet in the middle and is spring fed so does not dry up during a drought. It's probably 1/4 acre in size.
We see deer come down to drink every morning and it is so pretty. It would be even prettier if we could keep the green slime and growth out of it. The water is not green, just the stuff growing on top. On a windy day, it will all be blown to one side and the water itself is pretty clean.
Any suggestions on how to keep the surface clear of the green 'stuff'? I really hate to use chemicals, but will if it will help. I don't want to disturb the natural inhabitants... turtles, frogs and small minnows.
I have attached a picture showing the pond in the background. It was only half covered on this day as it rained, but by the next day it was fully covered again. That is my small herd of Pygmy goats in the foreground.
Thanks !
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kellenw
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: MrsMcClain]
12/05/07 09:18 PM
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MrsMcClain -
You've got a filamentous algae problem. Between the endopyte worry on the pasture (from your other thread), and the filamentous algae in the pond, you've got quite a lot going on right now! 
My first question for you is where are you located?
Grass carp are not fans of filamentous algae (FA). They'll eat some of it, but they really prefer other types of aquatic vegetation. More often than not, grass carp can create more NEW problems than the ones they were stocked to correct. When they get older and bigger their appetites also decrease substantially, making them a bad choice for long term vegetation control.
Tilapia may be a better choice depending on where you live. They love FA, and will eat it like crazy. Tilapia are a tropical warm water fish however, so they die off every year in all but the warmest parts of the US. However, people routinely stock them each year throughout the US because of the benefits they provide to a pond. They spawn like crazy, providing tons of forage for predator fish like bass. They gobble up filamentous algae at an amazing rate, and since they die off when the water temps get into the 50's, you never have to worry about them overpopulating. They also grow incredibly fast, and are quite tasty. It's not uncommon for the stockers to reach 3-4 pounds over the summer.
There are also chemical and mechanical methods that are options. I prefer to avoid chemicals, but others find them to be effective and safe. Mechanical methods are effective but require repeated "treatments" throughout the year to contol the FA. There are commercial "water rakes" available for this. You can also make one yourself. The collected nutrient rich FA makes an excellent soil amendment for gardens by the way.
So, as you can see, you have many options, but some of them are dependent on where you live. Let me know when you get a chance, and I'll narrow it down a little more if you'd like.
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: kellenw]
12/06/07 05:03 PM
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Thank you for your reply. Tilapa... I heard of those back when we lived in Texas. I am in Southeast Missouri now, right in the foothills of the Ozarks. I know we get cold weather here... it was only 18 degrees this morning... but I don't think it gets much colder than that... rarely. But most of the time it will get above freezing everyday.
I like the idea of Tilapa... I wonder if I can order some around here. I know they have a guy who delivers fingerlings for pond stocking... bluegill, bass, catfill... etc. Don't know if he could get some Tilapa.
I hate to use chemicals also. Will avoid it if at all posible.
Oh, by the way... my husband and I have decided to work on the pastures all at one time. We are going to cut the pastures as low as we are able, then have a local farmer come in and plow and turn the soil. We will have him turn it several time over the course of a year... then the following year, reseed it. I have to go up to our local extension office and see what they recommend for horse pasture here in Missouri. I'm going to keep my horses at my sisters til we get everything done.
I will keep a careful watch on the pasture and if I see any clump grass coming up... I will spray it and kill it immediately!
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kellenw
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: MrsMcClain]
12/06/07 10:35 PM
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You should be perfectly fine stocking Tilapia in the spring when water temps are high enough. Missouri does not have any restrictions with regard to stocking them. Nile Tilapia are a good choice if available. Again, they do die off in the fall, so you'll have to stock them every year to keep a relatively FA free pond. I believe the benefits are worth it, and many pond management pros (which I am not) will say the same. If you like to eat fish, Tilapia is really yummy also. If you have largemouth bass in your pond, they'll be really happy with the extra food source from the nearly constant summer spawning of the stocked Tilapia. Don't worry about the dying Tilapia causing water problems. Turtles, channel cat, bass and even blue gill will make quick work of them when they begin to get sluggish in the fall (they become easy targets).
Good to hear you've chosen to do the whole pasture. I think that's a wise choice, and you'll ultimately be much happier with the end results. You could also do a controlled burn to get a little better handle on any undesirable grasses that could possibly escape the plowing. It will add some more nutrients for a spring planting too. Just a thought.
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: kellenw]
12/12/07 03:33 PM
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A good controlled burn PRIOR to plowing would be a good idea if you can do it safely (access to experienced help.)
A good hot burn will help control some of the weeds by ruining the seed and the minerals freed up by burning the plans will do good for the grass when you seed.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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kellenw
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/12/07 09:42 PM
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That's what I meant (prior to plowing). In reading my reply, it wasn't at all clear on that. Thanks for clearing it up Pat.
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: kellenw]
12/13/07 10:04 AM
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You pretty much hit the bases on the filament weed, want to try your luck on turbidity?
I have several ponds, some of which are lined up like pearls on a necklace on one seasonal creek or another. With significant rainfall these all overflow into the next pond downstream and so forth.
Of course there is always water clarity issues after significant rain events but I have adjacent ponds with distinctly different characteristics. The first in one of the chains is usually fairly clear water and if muddied it clears fairly quickly. The next pond downstream from it never gets clear, it gets very muddy and then clears up to just pretty muddy. It overflows into another pond that stays more muddy than the second one (previously described.) This always muddy pond overflows into the last pond in the chain. This last pond is shared as the last pond in another chain. This second chain is composed of 4 ponds with the last one also being the fouth in the first chain detailed. This second chain, including the last (shared by both chains) is virtually always pretty clear, varying from not muddy, just a little turbid, to pretty darned clear. When the always very muddy pond flows into the last (shared last) pond it makes it pretty muddy but it clears right up to its status quo.
So this is a mystery I need help with. The pond that is #4 in both of the mentioned strings of ponds gets a substantial amount of overflow in heavy rain events from the super muddy pond B U T it clears up in a couple days.
So I have ponds that are clear and when muddied clear back up as it seems to be their "preferred state" and I have ponds that are muddy or muddier all the time.
I also have other ponds that are "isolated" with no other ponds overflowing into them. Some of these are nice and clear and some are quite muddy. Again, the ones that "want" to be clear can get muddy after a big rain but clear right back up while the ones that seem to want to be muddy just stay muddy.
It is not an issue of erosion or bare ground as the pond that is #4 in two chains is in my back yard and when we built the house there was significant disturbed earth and lots of muddy runoff into that pond but it still cleared up in a few days after a rain.
Now then, although Oklahoma is famous (infamous?) for red clay, red mud, red muddy water (Red River, Washita, and a host of others) I still prefer clearer water in my ponds. The fish seem to do well in both the clear and the muddy ponds. Light penetration to support phytoplankton and the general aquatic flora is better of course in the clear ones but fish still make it pretty well it seems in the muddy ones.
After we get the water cleared up then I will be a candidate for having more aquatic weed problems. One of my weediest ponds (a small clear one) has a 30+lb grass carp who can't keep up so I was thinking of getting him an apprentice or two.
I would love it if someone could explain to me why some of the ponds act as if they were designated to be muddy and the others to be clear. I would be willing to go to a considerable amount of trouble if I could clear up the other ponds. I prefer some sort of environmentally friendly approach. I don't want to dump a ton of alum or other chemicals into the ponds unless they are pretty benign with few side effects.
Any advice welcomed.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/13/07 10:32 AM
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Pat; when the ponds are all muddy take a water sample from each and put each in a clear mason jar that has had the corn squeezings removed. Monitor them to see at what speed they clear up. This may give some idea of the particulate size causing the clouding.
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: egon]
12/13/07 01:12 PM
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Egon, I understand the test you suggest but... Since the source of the muddy water in the clean pond is the muddy pond's overflow, don't you think the initial muddy water is caused by the same stuff in both instances since it is the same muddy water? There is something about the clear ponds that allows or causes the muddy water to settle out. This same water doesn't settle out very well, if at all, if it stays in the muddy pond.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/13/07 04:13 PM
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Yep, but this test will verify those facts. Avoid assumptions!
It will also give you some exercise digging up them jars filled with mouldy money. The other upside is you will have a nice garden spot dug up.
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: egon]
12/14/07 09:50 AM
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Egon, You said "put each in a clear mason jar that has had the corn squeezings removed." By the time I finished removing the squeezins from the first two jars I forgot what it was you wanted me to do and why. Maybe if I had some pint jars instead of quarts???
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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kellenw
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/18/07 11:37 PM
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Pat, You have quite a complex situation with your ponds. I'll be happy to take a stab at this (I love a challenge), but I'm definately not a biology expert (just a fan), so keep that in mind. hehe...
It sounds like this last pond in chain 1 (the one prior to the final pond that shares watershed with both chains) that stays fairly turbid has a large amount of suspended clay particles. The ponds further upstream seem to receive enough fresh water to keep them fairly clear. However, as the water flows through chain 1, somewhere along the line it is disturbing a lot of clay in the process. It seems this particular pond is the "dumping grounds" for all the particulate accumulation from the other ponds. Your final pond that shares the watershed of both chains is able to stay relatively clear due to the increased water volume it receives to flush the "clay water" out.
So, my GUESS is that you have an issue somewhere in this chain of ponds where moving water is hitting a large exposed area of soil that contains a large amount of clay.
Anything that would lead you to think this might be possible? Anywhere along the line that you see any considerable erosion? Any other thoughts or guesses that MIGHT make this be possible?
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Pat
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kellenw, Here is a rough sketch (really really rough) that will help, I hope, in describing the situation.
North is at the top. The horizontal lineat the top is the highway running E-W. A seasonal stream runs in a culvert under the highway into #1. It gets runoff from the pastures and pond overflows on the north side of the highway. #2 overflows into #1 (no drain pipe.) #1 overflows into #3 with no drain pipe. #3 overflows through a drain pipe into the seasonal stream leading to #4.
#5 overflows into #6 down a seasonal creek. #6 overflows via drain pipe into #7 which overflows via drain pipe into #4. #4 drains off of the property via seasonal creek.
# 8, 9, 10, and 11 are isolated and do not drain into another pond on my property nor are they fed from another pond on or off my property. Note, #10 is the pond with no number in the sketch.
Here are their characteristics:
1. Pretty clear most of time. Clears fast after a rain with or without overflow from upstream.
2. Like #1 except receives no overflow, just watershed.
3. Mostly clear, some turbidity but not red muddy look.
4. mostly clear, gets muddy from overflow from muddy pond upstream (#6 & #7) but gets clear again in a few days.
5. mostly clear, clears up quickly after a rain.
6. Always muddy (red colored) varies in degree but always poor visibility, never clears but not quite so bad as #7.
7. Always really muddy with red muddy look, never clears.
8. Always very muddy, never clears.
9.Always clear except after hard rain but clears up again quickly.
10. Always clear except after hard rain but clears up quickly.
!!. Just built, not even 10% full has only experiences 3 inches of rain. Hope for clear but may be muddy, we'll see.
Before I built #6 I observed #7 to always be very muddy and when it overflows into #4 it made #4 muddy too but #4 would clear right up while #7 stayed perpetually muddy. Then I built #6 which receives overflow from a clear pond, #5, but stays muddy anyway.
It is as if #4 is "ordained" to be clear and when made quite muddy by runoff from #6 and #7 it clears itself up in a few days.
Some of these ponds have springs or seeps feeding them as well as watershed and upstream sources. #6 has clear springs/seeps running into it as does #4 and probably #1 as they both are drought tolerant.
The overflow drain pipe for #6 dumps directly into #7 which in turn Dumps directly into #4.
I think the biggest mystery is why #4 resists staying muddy and why #7 and #6 stay muddy. I was told some fish stir the mud but #6 was muddy for the 2 years before it was stocked.
Reviewing the drawing I realize I have lost count. There is a 12th pond which is small like #8 but stays clear except for cloudiness after a hard rain. #8 is bright red mud color all the time. I have never fished it and don't know if it has fish. It has turtles and frogs.
The ponds froze over with a thin layer of ice a few times but are thawed now. It was in 40's last night and will hit low 60's today. On sunny "warmish" days between cold ones the turtles come out on logs to sun themselves. They can't digest food when their internal temp drops too low so they sun themselves as an aid to digestion.
If I could do something not terribly expensive or difficult to make some of the muddy ponds stay clear I would be happy even if I never found out why some are muddy and some clear by their nature and why they defy change.
I understand the comments regarding erosion and moving water as a source of turbidity. Last year was the worst drought on record in the state. The muddy ponds stayed muddy as they tried to dry up. the clear ponds stayed clear. Some of the clear ponds are spring fed and those stayed nearly full AND CLEAR. #6 stayed muddy and did not get too low as it is also spring fed.
Solve the mystery and I will submit your name in a drawing where you may qualify to win a swell prize.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (12/20/07 08:57 AM)
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JazzDad
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/20/07 08:14 AM
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Perhaps the ionic bond of those clay particles can be broken down with gypsum or lime. That may be treating the symptom, and not the cause, but if that's what you have to do...
Egon's Mason jar method will also work with small portions of these additives to see if they will bring the particulates out of suspension. Just watch your ph.
All kids are gifted; some just open their packages earlier than others.-Michael Carr
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: JazzDad]
12/20/07 08:53 AM
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Jazz, I know that the electric charge on the finely divided clay causes the individual pieces to repel each other and not clump together and fall out of suspension. the real mystery to me is why some of the ponds, even if filled with muddy water from a permanently muddy pond, soon clear up.
Alum is an agglutinating agent but I don't want to dump tons of alum into the ponds every time it rains hard.
I do have the one little isolated pond which is the muddiest of all. I could experiment with it. Its overflow does not go into any other of my ponds and it does not receive overflow from any pond, just runoff from its water shed. It NEVER clears and is a poster child for Oklahoma red colored ponds.
Take a look at the sketch and accompanying description and see if any ideas come to you about why some ponds try to stay clear and some muddy when they are adjacent and connect to each other.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/20/07 12:25 PM
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Would it be reasonable to suggest that those ponds relying on overflow are more cloudy than those that seem to have an underground water supply?
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: egon]
12/20/07 03:05 PM
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Egon, At least one of us contributed to a lack of communication. I intended to make it clear that one of the always muddy ponds has significant clear spring water input even when it is not getting overflow from upstream and not getting any contribution from its watershed. This is the CATFISH pond which did not get as seriously low during the record drought as any of my ponds without significant spring input. Some of the clear ponds have similar spring input and in that respect seem the same yet act differently.
Some of the clear ponds are isolated and only get input from their water shed. Likewise I have isolated muddy ponds whose only input is their watershed. Simple visual inspection does not reveal any major differences in the quality of the watershed.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (12/20/07 03:07 PM)
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egon
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/20/07 06:08 PM
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Being in the fifth day of a debilitating cold/flu communication or clear thing may not be in the realm of my present capabilities!
Several evenings ago I had the pieces of silver in hand if they were required!
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: egon]
12/21/07 11:03 AM
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Egon, Sorry to hear a bug bit you. Pieces of silver in hand??? Silver bullets? You hunt werewolves???
I know one sure fire way to remove the mud (suspended clay) from pond water but it is way to expensive for me. Since the suspended clay has an electrical charge which repels the other bits they don't clump together and settle out. An electrical device to attract the clay to an electrically charged plate similar to an electrostatic precipitator used as a scrubber for a smoke stack or similar. It would require an automated means of removing the accumulated clay from the charged plates to keep it working.
In effect it would work similar to the way the the "Ionic Breeze" type air filters are touted to work (but which unfortunately are EXTREMELY poor air filters.)
Hope you are back in battery soon and shake off the bug. If you take care of yourself and get sufficient rest and liquids you should be recovered in 2 weeks whereas if you just take stuff to make you feel better and you don't rest a lot then it will probably take 14 days to get better.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/21/07 02:40 PM
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Darned if I know Pat but it seems to have been upgraded/downgraded to pneumonia.
I'm still keeping my pieces of silver fare handy!
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: egon]
12/21/07 02:53 PM
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Egon, I guess I am a little slow (luckily not stopped.) It took this second mentioning before I connected with a tip for the boatman to get you over the Styx. Lets hope you can hold onto your change for quite a while.
Pneumonia doesn't sound like fun. I recall when someone told me the cure for the common cold was to soak you and your clothes in cold water and sit in front of a fan. This was supposed to change your cold into pneumonia. The advantage of this was supposed to be that the common cold was not curable but pneumonia was.
See, look on the bright side, you have already taken the first step on your way to a cure.
Please be sure that your wife monitors your apparent intellectual status. If you start to slip toward impaired function (worse than normal) get to medical assistance as the likely cause is reduced availability of O2 in your blood and you need to be on oxygen and receiving professional monitoring. This is not a joke, if your O2 levels go too low the results are permanent brain damage and or death, neither of which is a recommended status.
Hope you are better soon.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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bobkrack
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: Pat]
12/22/07 02:12 AM
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Guess I musta' got some low O2 levels once or thrice in the past!
Good luck Egon
Bob
I was taught to respect my elders but it's getting harder to find any!
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egon
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Re: Keeping a Pond Clean...
[re: bobkrack]
12/22/07 06:41 AM
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Hey, thanks. I need all the help I can get!
Egon
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