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jml755
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Dragging a pond
09/11/07 08:27 AM
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I've got some property with a large pond/small lake (approx. 4 acres, see attached). Just bought it a couple of years ago and the property in general has a lot of garbage, broken glass, rusted metal, etc. Been removing stuff as I find it. Daughter's 2 dogs were playing in the pond last weekend and running around the fields surrounding it. One of them came over bleeding like crazy from his rear paw. Ended up with a $400 vet bill. Deep cut to the bone. Walked the edge on Sunday and found half of a 55 gal drum rusting away half buried in the water about 6 feet off shore. Pulled it out, but now I'm worried about what else is in there (not even sure that's what he cut himself on). I'd like to come up with a plan to systematically drag the bottom (I think it's about 10-15' deep max), but I want to make sure that whatever I do is effective. Once I go over an area, I would like to know that it's safe for dogs/kids. I've got a few ideas but thought I'd see if anyone has done this.
Edited by jml755 (09/11/07 08:27 AM)
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Pat
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: jml755]
09/11/07 09:13 AM
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Any number of people can suggest various methods but I doubt there is a cost effective way to be sure, really sure, without nearly emptying it for a visual inspection. Probably not what you wated to hear.
A couple months ago I was at a friend's place and his cattle dog which loves to swim in ponds gave a loud unusual yelp. We investigated and found a triangle of missing hide in his "arm pit" that was a a bit over an inch on a side. He had experienced a turtle encounter! It didn't hurt the muscle or any working parts except the hide. HE got antibiotic ointment and observed, Healed fine. Dog still swims a lot.
I am open ocean certified SCUBA diver and if the visibility were not too terribly bad in the pond I could stretch guide ropes across the pond and go over it in a reasonable period of time. You need a couple ropes across the pond and you "leap frog" the ropes repetitively as the diver works from one end to the other, clearing the swath between the ropes. The width of a swath is governed by visibility. The ropes need to be a bit less in distance apart than twice the visibility. The diver can carry a roll of string and small floats the size of fishing bobbers to mark the debris to be removed. I recommend a hookah rig instead of wearing tanks but tanks would be OK.
There are underwater camera sets complete with monitors for under $200 if you don't have a diving friend. Bottom line is you need eyes on the search area to be really sure. They can be your eyes, a friend's, a camera's. You probably don't want to hear this but the simplest cheapest and most surefire way is to drain the pond. I did it with a few 20 ft lengths of 6 inch PVC and some 45 degree elbows.
You don't have to glue the pipe and spoil reuse opportunities. Jam it together and then run a bead of silicone caulk to seal it. If not sealed you can lose your prime in a siphon operation. Don't work the silicone into the joints as it will interfere with gluing when you reuse the pipe and fittings. IF you won't need the pipe joined up tooooo long just use tape (duct tape wide HD package tape or...)
I'm sure there are ways to "drag" the pond but do you want to risk missing a broken bottle or glass gallon jug or barbed wire or...
Best of luck no mater what you decide.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: Pat]
09/11/07 11:26 AM
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Pat,
Great ideas. I've got a friend who is an avid diver. I'll see what he thinks but I'm usually leery of asking people for favors (even if I paid him). I thought about draining it as there is a nearby county drain that I could trench to, but I've never done that and I'm afraid of the problems associated with that option (killing & disposing of the fish in it, natural refill time, etc). Being a techno-geek of sorts, I may look into the underwater camera idea. However, the wife will flip if she sees another "toy" I want to buy. Anyway, thanks for the reply. I agree that dragging it without "eyes" means I'll never be sure I got everything that can be seen.
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Pat
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: jml755]
09/11/07 11:59 AM
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The standard practice of removing all fish (and many of the other air breathing life forms) is to use ROTENONE. Rotenone is a biodegrading substance that takes up most of the available oxygen in the pond water causing an immediate and simultaneous kill. This lets you prepare a burial trench or make other disposal arrangements and handle all the dead critters at once instead of a few at a time as when draining a pond. A down side is that you don't want to eat them (not sure why but that is the word I was given.)
The procedure is to drain (SIPHON) the pond down to a very low level which both reduces the quantity of ROTENONE needed as well as gives some protection against overflow in case of a surprise rain. (Think lawsuit if you kill folks fish downstream) Rotenone biodegrades and shortly after killing the fish it will harmlessly dissipate. While the pond is very low but before you introduce rotenone it is a good time to seine or otherwise gather up fish for a fish fry or for transplanting to another body of water or...
A conscientious diver will probably outperform a towed underwater video camera by a fair margin and is not all that impractical in a limited area. As an economy move you might choose to only search the part of the pond that is less than say 8 ft deep as surface swimming would not be likely to involve a greater depth.
If you are concerned a lot about the fish you have or have other resistance to draining A N D much of the area of the pond is over 8-10 ft deep you could just drain the pond of the first 6-8 ft or whatever and then that would reduce the area you'd have to go over by diver, video, or whatever. You didn't say where you were located so again I am not able to tailor comments to your situation. If you get good precip over the winter you will start to regain water so partial draining might be a good thing. If you are in Barstow, CA or Portales, NM then maybe not.
You didn't comment of visibility so I can't tailor my comments to extant conditions in that respect either.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Pat,
Property is in SE Michigan (Thumb area). Water is pretty clear (except when the dogs stir up the mud at the edge). I'm leaning toward the diver/camera option right now. Draining just seems like it will be a messy major project. Not real interested in killing off all the fish & restocking ($$$$). Also, with the camera option, I could do a little at a time, when I get a chance. Since we don't live on the property yet, we can only work on weekends. I can then limit the "in-water" activity to the area already checked/cleaned. Tried to attach a pix of it. Will try again on this post.
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Pat
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: jml755]
09/12/07 09:36 AM
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JML, Most folks prefer to not drain a pond completely if there is a viable alternative. Since you folks are not as short on precipitation as we sometimes are or at least you have more reliable precip than we do. Given that, a partial draining is also a viable alternative. You don't lose fish and the pond recovers more quickly than a complete draining. This gives you complete access to any hazards in the first few feet of water, depths that are often waded. I have been around folks who insist that no one goes into one of their ponds without shoes. There are "water" shoes but tennis shoes work well and help protect against stepping on a sharp.
If you are not in a heavy precip period and not in a hurry then all you need to drain a pond is some garden hoses for siphons. You can set up the hose(s) for the level of interest and it/they will stop draining at that level so you can set them up and leave for a week and not worry about lowering the level past your requirement. I have helped a buddy empty a pond this way with 3 hoses.
If it were my pond in your location, realizing we are divers, I'd partially drain the pond to be absolutely sure I had no hazards in the first 4 ft of water at least. JUst swimming by and looking around or using a video camera will find big stuff not hidden in the soft silt on top. Broken bottles and rusted out cans and such just below the surface of the silt may be waiting for a bare foot to gash. This is a one time deal and you get great results and peace of mind and never have to do it again.
I would dive or camera inspect the rest of the pond for large things realizing broken bottles and jars can easily be missed in the soft silt layer. My expectation would be to provide a safe entry and exit and/or wading area and no large hazards in deeper water but frankly most folks don't use more than the first 6 ft of water when swimming (with no diving.) If you do it intentionally you can go pond swimming and never touch bottom in water over 3-4 ft deep.
For a time our family lived in Lima, Ohio and we used to go to Cold Water, MI for a week or so in summer. We'd rent a cabin on the lake with a dock and fishing boat or two and have a nice family vacation. Mom and dad and sometimes an aunt and uncle would go out in boats to fish and my sis and I would swim and row around in a small boat. I recall how cold the water was more than a few feet down. Brrrrrr!!!! About as cold as the old limestone quarries after they filled with spring water.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: Pat]
09/12/07 12:42 PM
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Pat,
I'm going to do a visual inspection around the perimeter this fall and drag as far out as the dogs can tough bottom, plus some. I' think I can do this with some kind of long-handled rake. Long-term, I'm leaning toward the "partial drain" option you suggested. I'm going to check this weekend on how much hose I'd need to get to the creek (county drain). I also may be able to drain to a wooded area between the pond and creek that I think naturally goes into the county drain since, technically, I need a permit to run anything directly into the county drain.
I agree on the tennis shoes and the hidden obstacles, in any case. I'll never really be sure that I've got everything that's been tossed into the pond over the years. I figure if I do a real good job on the shallow end where the dogs & people swim, I'll have (some) peace of mind.
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Pat
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: jml755]
09/12/07 08:37 PM
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I haven't found any pond surprises yet but I found a couple impromptu dump sites at my place. One was just unsightly but not a hazard. IT was near a pond but was not a source of chemical solution, just eye pollution. I am in the process of burying it unde plenty of soil. It is things like used frige (no freon) an old lawn mower and such.
The other bothered me more. It too was near a pond (I have 10 and counting) and it contained an old lead acid battery, lots of broken glass, old cable, misc dozer parts, and so forth. I discovered it when reshaping what became my back yard. I excavated about 12 feet or so below original grade to do my basement and then excavated the back yard to make the finished grade down hill to the back yard pond. We moved a lot of dirt with a 4 ft bucket on a large track hoe and two 10 wheel dumps for several days. Just as we were finishing I noticed the tip of the iceberg (some cable sticking up.) Months later I went at it with my tractor and FEL and got everything within a couple feet of the surface in that area. The largest single chunk was a washing machine.
I haven't found anything untoward in any of my ponds but I do have several dead tree remnants sticking above the surface which I plan to drop a chain on and pull put. A few of the submerged hazards to navigation interfere with canoing but not too much.
I may have to drain off a couple feet of depth off one of my larger ponds to permit re-engineering the emergency overflow, adding a drain pipe, and raising the control water height nearly 3 feet.
I think it would be prudent to use a weighted garden rake (not a leaf rake) with an extension handle for longer reach to try to clear any obstacles to wading for the first few feet of depth in areas used for such activities. I did that sort of thing in one of my ponds to temporarily reduce the aquatic weed population in a couple places. That is quite a chore as the long rake is unwieldy and the pond weeds were heavy.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: Pat]
09/13/07 08:12 AM
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Pat,
Funny that you mention the "buried treasure". I found a small depression in the woods near the future home site that collects water. After it dried up, I found old shingles, buckets, faucets, etc. Typical "landfill" stuff. Wife suggested we just cover it with dirt excavated when we did the driveway. It's the old shingles that bother me (leaching into the groundwater). I've been poking into it and decided I need to use the backhoe to clean it. I'm hoping I don't have to use the full 17 ft digging depth of the hoe to clean it out (LOL). By the way, I took a look at your thread on building your house. Quite the homestead. Hope you're finally enjoying the fruits of your labor. Makes me jealous (I've only got 55 acres to work with). Unfortunately, anything here in MI of any size (eighth section or bigger) usually gets carved up into subdivisions or a shopping mall because of the asking price. Used to be they would put a golf course on it, but nowadays they're even bulldozing the existing courses into condos, Walmarts,etc. as "urban sprawl" takes hold. Making a lot of people mad who bought "premium" lots on the golf course to end up looking at the back of a shopping center.
As for the weeds, I'd also like to do some "harvesting" on the pond at some point in the future. Talked to folks around here. Some suggested chemical solutions, but I'm trying to avoid that. One guy said to drag an old bedspring across the bottom. "Just drop it in and winch it from the other side" Sounds like it "might" work but I'd be afraid that it would come apart halfway due to the load on it and I'd have another piece of junk on the bottom. If I use that approach, I'll probably fab something up that is good and strong. There are companies that use commercial weed harvesters on the private lakes around here (with multi-million dollar homes on the shore) but there's a lot of satisfaction in doing something that everyone says can't be done by yourself.
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Pat
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: jml755]
09/13/07 09:42 AM
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Dragging your pond to control aquatic plants is at best a temporary fix. You are just "creating" another lawn to mow, so to speak. There are some pretty specific herbicides for pond use that are fish friendly. I haven't used them myself.
Will "grass carp" survive your "climate/over winter" pond conditions? They are a good choice for ecologically sensitive weed control. I need to get another for one of my little ponds. The one on duty now is about 30+ pounds and isn't keeping up.
You don't want to get too carried away with weed control, a pond isn't a swimming pool. I will be transplanting some desirable pond weeds into my catfish pond to help improve water clarity. The ideal is a good balance. You need vegetation for the fry to hide out and for vegetarian grazing and cover for eggs and such. A weed free pond is an out of balance pond with lower productivity. Maybe you want to consider only "harvesting" vegetation in certain sections of your pond.
I personally burried lots of debris in the one "dump" before I started to cover it. I dumped drywall scraps which are benign and not a bio hazard. If I had been smarter I would have scattered the scraps in the pastures as they are GOOD soil amendment material.
Boy howdy!, Evelyn Wood would be proud of you if you read the whole house building thread (Oklahoma farm house)
Yeah, We have been "in" for quite a while but I'm not through building it (doing finish work in upstairs and basement mostly) and have already started some remodeling Enclosing the one open side of the 21x48 tractor shed on the side of the shop/garage and building a pole barn to take over the functiion originally intended for the shed.
My shop isn't done either. I need to plumb for dust control and compressed air and MORE 220 outlets.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: Pat]
09/13/07 10:52 AM
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I agree on the pond/weed issue. I'm thinking of keeping an area at the shallow end "weed-free" for swimming purposes. It's not too "weedy" now. The water is pretty clear and I see a lot of fish (not sure what species, probably bass and bluegills), minnows, frogs, etc. so I don't want to destroy the ecological balance. However, I also don't want a weed-choked pond that you can't row a boat through. (I see some of those that look more like swamps.) I'll check into the "grass carp" idea. I talked to a local company a year or so ago about stocking it with perch, considering the price and availability around here for yellow perch. Sounded like a workable idea but then they went belly-up. I'm not a big fisherman (can't sit still long enough) but figured it would be nice to be able to walk out back, throw a line in and get dinner.
Since we've only owned the property for a few years, I'm not sure what it's natural cycles may be. Ideally, I'd like to have it be maintenance free. You're right, I don't want another "lawn" to mow.
Have to admit, I only skimmed the house thread, mostly looked at the pix (no speed reading necessary, just a high-speed link, LOL) and read some of the "how-we-did-it" stuff. Always interested to see how others do things. Mentioned it to my wife. Her eyebrows raised when I said "3 plus years. I think I'll have to sign a contract with her, promising something less than that (LOL,again).
Curious about the dual water supply. You said in one post that you have a well AND rural supply. Is that common in OK? Why do you need both? Is one of them prone to supply problems? How far do they pipe the water into the countryside? In MI, only "rural" supply I know of is along the coast of Lake Huron where people can't get water from a well and the lakefront population density is substantial. (Strangest thing, there are some homes/cottages with 20% of the world's fresh water lapping at their front door and they've got to truck in potable water, so they're running a water line up the coastline.)
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Pat
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: jml755]
09/13/07 09:24 PM
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I have never actually calculated or measured the square footage under roof, interior space, or exterior dimensions to much precision. I think there is about 5,000 or more in living space and a few thousand more in shops, garage, mechanical spaces and such. There are just three actual bedrooms (not counting spaces that could be bedrooms and 5 bathrooms only one of which has no tub but it has a shower. It would have been done faster and been smaller if my wife would have gone to her mom's house for an extended visit at the beginning of the construction.
I'm not a rabid survivalist but I like to be a cautious and prudent citizen. The rural water district didn't start their service until just a while before the move in. It is not run by professionals. I had a well about a quarter mile away with a water line within 200 ft of the house so I continued it to the house. The way I have it plumbed you can have either source or but not both supplying water at one time.
In this area (old oil field that had poor practices) wells can go bad without warning so I hedged my bets. As it hasa turned out the rural water supply has been interrupted a few times but not for very long at a time. One of the largest outages just dropped our pressure quite a bit while some neighbors were getting no water. (I think it came to us due to gravity/relative elevations.)
The Citizen Pottawatomie tribe has negotiated to buy the water district and operate it which I see as a good thing as then it will be professionally managed AND will be tied to a big tribal owned RO plant so the two systems will be backups for each other.
It took longer to build my place too because of the master suite being ICF construction and that was still kinda new in these parts. In fact lots of the materials and methods I required were kinda new in these parts.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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kellenw
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Re: Dragging a pond
[re: jml755]
11/28/07 12:45 AM
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I second the partial drain suggestion. A lot of experienced pond management pros do this to control vegetation when pond owners wish to avoid chemical controls.
This should allow you to keep your fish, yet still clean up any sunken garbage around the edges.
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