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CowboyUp
Silver Member

Reged: 02/27/04
Posts: 112
Loc: North Texas
whole house water filter
      04/11/07 04:10 PM

Hi folks,
I finally had my well water tested at the local facility, and I was told the water is potable. Yippee. However, my water has the rotten egg smell and also has a saltiness to it. I believe the saltiness might be attributed to the fact that the water drops off a limestone shelf as the well fills. The facility didn't test for minerals so I really don't know what's in the water, only that there's no bad bacteria. So here's my question. Will a Reverse Osmosis Filtering system at the point of entry into my house remove the sulfur smell and the saltiness? The salt isn't thick, just a slight taste of it. I've been looking at the RO systems and what I've read leads me to believe that the RO can eliminate many unwanted or unpleasant minerals. Will someone please clarify this for me? I don't mind spending a few bucks to clean the water, but I don't want to waste money on a system that's not going to have much effect. Thanks for the help everyone.

Dusty

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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: whole house water filter new [re: CowboyUp]
      04/12/07 09:13 AM


Most household RO systems usually require a low TDS.

Egon

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speedbump
Member

Reged: 07/03/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Florida
Re: whole house water filter new [re: egon]
      04/12/07 10:44 AM

Are you talking about your whole house of just for your drinking water?

Either way, you will need a water analysis. RO's need relatively clean water to start with.

If you go with whole house RO, you will need a storage tank, another pump and pressure tank and probably filtration in front of it.

bob...

Pumpsandtanks.com

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GaryQWA
Silver Member

Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: whole house water filter new [re: CowboyUp]
      04/12/07 11:05 PM

As Speedbump says, you need a water analysis. It should include hardness, iron and ph at least. Sodium, chlorides and sulfates would be nice.

You really don't want POE RO and if you have copper plumbing you can't run RO water through it without adding hardness back into it or it will eat the copper really quick. RO is not going to work on H2S, so you'd need to remove that first.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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CowboyUp
Silver Member

Reged: 02/27/04
Posts: 112
Loc: North Texas
Re: whole house water filter new [re: GaryQWA]
      04/13/07 10:10 PM

Thanks, guys. I'm not sure where to get my water tested for minerals and such.
I've read about RO systems but I don't fully understand their function, except to provide clean drinking water. My water is clear. I use a sediment filter, but it doesn't do anything to take out the sulfur smell or the saltiness. My plumbing needs are primarily a kitchen sink, a bathroom sink, a toilet and a shower.
I've used my water as is for cleaning and bathing, but I'd like to at least remove the smell. What filtering systems are available besides the RO systems. As I've looked on the internet, all I've done is gotten more confused by the different systems. My water is plenty soft, I don't need to soften it anymore. My pipes are cpvc, not copper.
Thanks again for the help.

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GaryQWA
Silver Member

Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: whole house water filter new [re: egon]
      04/14/07 08:52 PM

ROs reduce TDS. Most RO membranes can handle up to 2000 ppm TDS. So they do not require low TDS water.

A TDS measurement before and after an RO tells you when to replace the membrane; that's when the % reduction decreases toward the raw water TDS. When new, the average RO reduces TDS between 90-99 %. That's how you tell it is working; a TDS test.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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GaryQWA
Silver Member

Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: whole house water filter new [re: CowboyUp]
      04/14/07 09:26 PM

Any lab or water treatment dealer can do the tests. Although a dealer usually won't do a sodium test.

There are many types of treatment for odor but the odor has to be identified. Is it chemical or H2S or like H2S (rotten egg or sulfur)?

If chemical, then carbon is used. If H2S, then an oxidizer is used. They are air/oxygen, chlorine, hydrogen peroxide, ozone or an oxidizing mineral in a filter that is either regenerated with something or simply backwashed. If there is no (type) of bacteria, you can sometimes use Centaur carbon.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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Pat
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Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: whole house water filter new [re: GaryQWA]
      04/15/07 11:46 AM

If you can taste the salt there is TOO MUCH!

I just installed 4 undercounter water filters and little countertop faucets. You can get cartridges to remove just about anything. Treating all the water, even to flush toilets and do laundry might be a tad costly.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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GaryQWA
Silver Member

Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: whole house water filter new [re: Pat]
      04/16/07 06:09 PM

Pat, you know of a disposable cartridge that will remove sodium and/or chlorides that are responsible for a "salty" taste? I'd like to know what is it.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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Pat
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: whole house water filter new [re: GaryQWA]
      04/17/07 08:46 AM

C'mon Gary, you know better than that! Surely you should know more about available treatment than the average bear. No doubt a trick question since there probably is no simple commercial cart avail for salt!

OK, What year were North Hampton United the all England football champions? RIIIIINNNNNGGGGG Times up! Sorry, that was inded a trick question as North Hampton United have never been all England football champions!

You might find something to charge a resin bed with to do an ion exchange to remove sodium from water but you probably wouldn't want to drink the water.

If your question is punishment for making a broad statement about there being cartridges for all sorts of stuff then I promise to say three hail Caesars and go and polute no more.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: whole house water filter new [re: Pat]
      04/17/07 12:35 PM


Uhh -- Dosent a reverse osmosi filter remove those products?

Filter is a filter I always thought,

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Pat
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: whole house water filter new [re: egon]
      04/17/07 02:49 PM

Yes Egon, There are reverse osmosis units made expressly for desalination of sea water. They used to be expensive but the price fell and the technology matured and they became typical equipment for cruising yachts. A big difference is the sea water has a high osmotic pressure due to the 35 parts per thousand of salt so high pressure is required to run a desalinater processing sea water. The yacht type typically have a manual pump arm for emergency use in case of failure of the electric motor or electrical system or you take it with you when abandoning ship.

I assumed "cartridge" implied chemical process type filtration or similar. I suppose you can think of RO as mechanical filtration with smaller pore size (betwen salt and water molecule size.)

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: whole house water filter new [re: Pat]
      04/17/07 08:40 PM


Pat:

When we purchased our RO system it's main purpose was to remove naturally occurring sodium from our well water.
This was back in our Alberta acreage well water life. The system followed us to Nova Scotia and now cleans Town water.

Egon

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GaryQWA
Silver Member

Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: whole house water filter new [re: Pat]
      04/18/07 08:02 AM

True, I know of no commercial or otherwise, disposable cartridge to remove/reduce sodium or chlorides.

Egon, RO is a system of disposable cartridges and a membrane, and although you can sling around slang terms like calling an RO a filter; I suspect you'd be calling a distiller a "filter" too.... I being in the water treatment industry have ethics constraints.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: whole house water filter new [re: GaryQWA]
      04/18/07 09:30 AM


Distiller is something completely different.

A menbrane is still a filter in that it takes out particles to a size to which the membrane is designed.

Egon

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Pat
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: whole house water filter new [re: GaryQWA]
      04/18/07 01:05 PM

Gary, Just wait a cotton pickin' minute. This is turning into a jargon war. Irrespective of what you PROFESSIONALS call a MEMBRANE the membrane is a filter, BY DEFINITION. Water with stuff in solution comprised of molecules larger than H2O can be separated out by forcing the solution under pressure through the filter (membrane.) Larger molecules (or other larger than H2O "chunks of stuff" are held back by the fine porosity of the filter/membrane while water can pass through much easier at a given pressure. Osmotic pressure isn't arcane black magic.

You can describe the human circulatory system just fine without using commonly accepted (by doctors) medical terms, replacing them with appropriate plumbing or hydraulic engineering terms.

Similarly, to a layman, an RO membrane is a FILTER. To a scientist or engineer considering an RO membrane to be a filter is not heresy. Perhaps not the common water quality industry favored technical use but also NOT WRONG.

The little round ball with the hole in it that when turned sideways to the flow stops the flow is a cumbersome use better replaced in technical discussions with BALL VALVE but it doesn't make the usage wrong because plumbers don't say it that way.

Peace brother, we aren't all water quality experts communicating with peers. We are just regular folk who may not have the secret handshake.... but know a filter when they here about it.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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AndyC
New Member

Reged: 01/10/06
Posts: 11
Re: whole house water filter new [re: Pat]
      04/18/07 03:16 PM

Pat,

I see your point. I have always considered a 'filter' as a device that removes things from water and holds them until the filter (media or element) is backwashed or the replaced.

A membrane (MF, UF NF or RO) are water separation devices. Ideally, the elements to be separated never even touch the membrane and are washed away. As water moves laterally across the membrane it is preserving it and, theoretically, should last forever. But we know that is not the case.

Membrane systems that have a rinse cycle using treated water, such as RO water or citric acid, will extend the lives of membrane considerably. Where a membrane meets its greatest challenge is when the tank is full and the auto-shut off stops, causing the untreated water to rest against the membrane and begins its deterioration process.

On the other hand, sometimes when speaking with prospects we use simplified terms for brevity and comprehension as TMI can lose them with jargon and technology.

Andy

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pappy19
Member

Reged: 03/30/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Garden Valley, Idaho
Re: whole house water filter new [re: AndyC]
      04/19/07 11:22 AM

I would also make another suggestion. If you plan on watering your lawn from that new well, set it up where your outside faucets are on a by-pass from the water system to the rest of your house. Otherwise you'll be watering your grass with filtered water, not necessary.

2008 F-250 V-10 Loaded
2007 Lincoln LT grocery getter
2007 Kubota RTV 900
1996 Ford Bronco



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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: whole house water filter new [re: pappy19]
      04/19/07 01:30 PM


If the water has a salt content the lawn may not like it.

Egon

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GaryQWA
Silver Member

Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: whole house water filter new [re: Pat]
      04/19/07 06:14 PM

Firstly guys... I said disposable cartridges.... are you including a membrane in that discription? I guess you will but... based on your calling an RO a "filter" because it removes things from water, I guess you'll soon be calling an ion exchange water softener a "filter" also; because it removes things from water. BTW, a distiller removes things from water too, so to at least Pat is it, a distiller is a "filter".

I disagree because most people will define a "filter" as something that mechanically traps and thereby removes something from a gas or fluid. An RO membrane and ion exchange resins do not use a mechanical or other type of trapping process.

Recall I said "disposable cartridge" which in yer wildest stretch does not include an RO or water softener, or distiller.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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Pat
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: whole house water filter new [re: GaryQWA]
      04/20/07 07:56 AM

Gary, You may be missing an important part of the "filter" concept.

The part I think you missed when claiming I would call a resin bed in an ion exchange unit a filter (which I would likely NOT DO by the way unless really pressed) is that filtration in the simplest most direct form is mechanical separation based on size. If the porosity of your filter medium is such that it mostly excludes "lumps" above a certain dimension then it "filters" out those lumps. RO "FILTERS", as you know, have a very fine porosity and can pass H2O) molecules but exclude sufficiently larger molecules and certainly will mechanically separate out most things appreciably larger than water molecules. It is not good practice to use a membrane in that manner and they typically have a prefilter to keep from plugging the membrane with sediment B U T a membrane is a filter and it works principally as a size discriminator not unlike a superfine mesh.

We both know that resin beds and their ion exchange mechanism are NOT based on size discrimination. I suppose you could use a resin bed (charged or not) as a filter but it would take a fairly large chunk of stuff to be filtered out mechanically by the resin beads.

A distiller is CLEARLY NOT A FILTER, at least not in the sense of mechanical separation as discussed above and in previous posts.

In a broader sense you can define a filter as a device that separates entities based on some inherent difference(s) and in that broader sense a still is a filter and using this broader definition an ion exchange system with a resin bed is a filter too. Using this broader definition any device or process that discriminates or separates entities based on their inherent attributes is a filter. This holds in electronics, acoustics, optics, and on and on. Even when not couched solely in "water quality professional" approved terminology, I think most reasonable folks would agree to the use of the more restrictive definition of filtration as a mechanical process based on size.

This leaves us with the question of what to call a canister containing a chemical that reacts with a supply stream of water and chemically alters it. These are sold as "filters."

Gets difficult doesn't it? Common usage does not follow definite clear concise definitions.

By the way, Gary, You don't need to put words in my mouth, I have no deficiency in that area. AND...

Yes a RO filter/membrane can be disposed of so it is disposable if that matters.

Pat


"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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speedbump
Member

Reged: 07/03/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Florida
Re: whole house water filter new [re: Pat]
      04/20/07 08:58 AM

Gary,

I wouldn't waste my breath. This guy would argue whether the sun comes up in the east or the west depending on what side of the bed you got up on. He reminds me a lot of Raucina!

bob...

Pumpsandtanks.com

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Pat
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: whole house water filter new [re: speedbump]
      04/20/07 09:06 AM

Gee Speedy, Can't you tell the difference between an argument and a discussion?

I have great respect for Gary's water knowledge and have taken advantage of his experience before. IF we discuss something and enjoy doing it, please don't characterize it as an argument. I don't think Gary or I have ever been upset in the least by any of our exchanges. Lets try to keep it that way between us as well.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: whole house water filter new [re: speedbump]
      04/20/07 10:24 AM


Gary knows his stuff. There is just a terminoly disscusion going on.

Egon

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speedbump
Member

Reged: 07/03/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Florida
Re: whole house water filter new [re: egon]
      04/20/07 10:43 AM

He still reminds me of Raucina!

Pumpsandtanks.com

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