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grower
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Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
08/01/06 12:00 AM
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I am getting a 4" well. Since my neighbors have artesian wells, contractors are telling me I am likely to have one, too. What I don't understand is that their bids include immersible pump. Why not above ground?
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egon
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/01/06 04:26 AM
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It could have to do with the flow rate of the well. Most likely a sub is speced as they are a better type of water pump with usually less long term maintenance. [ no air tight seals to maintain.] They are a lot easier to match to volume and most likely many other factors of which I am not aware of.
For me a submersible in a well is the best solution.
Egon
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grower
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: egon]
08/01/06 09:18 AM
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Thank you for the explanation. I have another question. Do I need water tank if I am going to use the water for irrigation only? No house, nothing. I will have about 1 hp pump which will give me about 20 gpm max flow rate. Sprinkler heads will use about 15 gpm. Without a water tank, the pump will stay on. If I put a holding tank with pressure switch, will it make the pump go on and off? Thanks.
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egon
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/01/06 04:13 PM
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If you are setting up an irrigation system it may be best to follow the advive of your local well drillers.
Egon
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grower
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: egon]
08/02/06 12:45 AM
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Thank you. I got answers from an irrigation supplier.
Let me ask another question. I know Goulds is a good brand. Is it the best brand? I am getting bids on the well drilling and I have no knowledge of pump quality. One company wants to install Franklin pump. Is it as good as Goulds? Thanks.
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1994
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/02/06 07:39 AM
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Both Goulds and Franklin will have the same Franklin Electric motor on them. Only difference is pump end. Both have plastic impellers with floating stack design, not a nickles worth of difference between them. If there is any difference in price, I would choose the less expensive one. Also if you run 15 GPM sprinklers with a 20 GPM pump, you will have about 15 PSI more pressure than designed for. If that is a problem you could use something like a Cycle Stop Valve to maintain a steady pressure. Then your zones could vary from 1 GPM to 20 GPM and the pressure would remain the same. In this way you can match the irrigation zones to the yard and not the pump. You can use one of these valves no mater if you use the pressure tank and pressure switch or not.
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GaryQWA
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/02/06 08:31 AM
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If you don't have a tank and switch, you turn the pump on/off manually. If you go with a CSV, you need a small tank and switch but that is the best choice IMO.
A 20 gpm 1 hp pump can deliver quite high psi and in many instances will deliver more than 20 gpm depending on the TDH (total dynamic head), you have to look at the pump curve chart for the specific pump.
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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1994
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: GaryQWA]
08/02/06 11:53 AM
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Gary is right about checking your pump curve to see what pressure that pump will deliver while using 15 GPM. I was just using a 1 HP 20 GPM curve and that may not be the pump you have. Also the CSV does not have to have a tank and switch. You can use a pump start relay or turn the pump on manually and the CSV will still maintain a constant pressure at any flow rate above 1 GPM.
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grower
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: 1994]
08/02/06 02:44 PM
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Thanks a lot. I didn't know anything about what you mentioned. I will look for a Cycle Stop Valve. I was wondering what the unused water would do to pressure. Now I know.
My pump is from Home Depot, Flotec. It does not have a curve. But it says the max pressure at shut-off is about 46 psi.
Edited by grower (08/02/06 09:34 PM)
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Pat
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/02/06 09:38 PM
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What if the well is NOT artesion? The submerged pump will work either way so it is a sure bet.
Pumps can do more pressure/volume when the work they are doing is on the output side vice the suction side. Water can only be sucked up a height of about 34 ft (at the surface of our planet.). This is the height where the weight of the water column equals the typical atmospheric pressure, i.e. about 14.7 PSI. If you try to suck water through a longer straw than 34 ft vertical head you will reduce the pressure to a partial vacuum required to vaporize the water, i.e. you will boil the water and get vapor not liquid.
The limiting height is measured from the free surface of liquid standing in the well with the pump running at the deliverey rate in question which is a lower water level that the static one when not pumping.
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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grower
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/02/06 09:40 PM
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Now I am down to 2 bids. One says he can do either galvanized well casing or PVC. The other says he does only galvanized. Which should I choose? I live in Florida and freezing is rarely a concern. But it can go down to 20's in the morning.
I called water management district for advice. According to them, both are commonly used. But PVC is about $700 cheaper than galvanized. $3500 vs. $4200. Just the well casing, and a valve. I will add plumbing and a pump. Thanks.
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Pat
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/02/06 09:51 PM
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I don't know what the experts will say but I lean toward the PVC (especially if it is heavy wall enough.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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CJDave
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/03/06 02:37 AM
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 Many well drillers use heavy wall PVC with "dime slot" perforations. In bad water, the slots stay open longer on PVC. If the subsurface strata is "hostile" .....lots of big rocks....the metal casing will maintain alignment better. Nobody has mentioned "upthrust" one of the secret killers of submersible pumps. If you pump directly into an irrigation system, the design flowrate of that system has to maintain enough pumping head to keep the pump from over pumping....that is to say keep it from getting so far off the curve to the right that the impeller downthrust goes into UPTHRUST. Even if the system was perfectly designed, someone could still open enough valves or change things such that the pumping head was reduced to almost nothing. Isn't this a situation where a surface pump would be appropriate? The cost penalty for using a sub is normally offset by their ability to pump efficiently AT DEPTH. They are actually a poor choice for very shallow settings where upthurst can so easily occur. How about a nice, single-pipe, self-priming centrifugal? If the water is at or near the surface, it seems like that would be a good choice.
CJDave
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: CJDave]
08/03/06 07:37 AM
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So you already have a pump? The Flo tec pump only builds 46 PSI. Then you are stuck with a 20/40 pressure switch setting. I would not be happy with that low of pressure. I reccommend 40/60 PSI which means a bigger pump. My house runs at 50/70 and I have such good pressure I don't really even need soap. Constant 60 PSI will just blast the dirt off of you in the shower.
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GaryQWA
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/03/06 09:42 AM
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Use PVC for the casing and then PE drop pipe to the pump. I'd take the pump back and get a better quality pump like Gould's etc.. All pumps have a pump curve chart (or don't buy one that doesn't), it will show the gpm delivered at what pressure you want to use at what depth you set the pump (in this case 180-190').
You may be choosing a pump based on price instead of performance, which usually in the end costs more. Check some pump supply houses rather than big box stores; they're in your yellow pages under the Pump heading.
All you need to stop thrust wear is a valve that is partially closed to cause some back pressure; never run a submersible pump at open discharge for an extended period of time.
www.cyclestopvalves.com says use a small pressure tank and switch to control the pump. IIRC the CSV works at .5 gpm but there are a number of models and all will have a tank.
Just how much water are you going to be pumping and how frequently are you pumping it?
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: GaryQWA]
08/03/06 10:24 AM
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Gary, the Cycle Stop Valve will work with a pump start relay and no pressure tank. See this link; http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/techq_3.html
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grower
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: 1994]
08/03/06 12:56 PM
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I now see my mistake. I will return the pump and buy a good one that goes higher than 46 psi.
Right now, the need is to run sprinkler heads, maybe about 10-15 gpm a few minutes per zone, 4-5 zones, 2-3 cycles a day.
I have a question about the drop pipe. If the casing is full of water (free-flowing well), do I still need a drop pipe with foot valve? Is it necessary because pumping may drop the water level by 10-15 feet?
Where do I buy CSV? From irrigation supply stores?
Thanks.
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/03/06 02:22 PM
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For a CSV, check with pumpsandtanks.com. I am sure they can help with a pump as well.
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speedbump
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: 1994]
08/04/06 03:11 PM
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Where are you in Florida?
I would recommend PVC if it is 5" not 4". When a pump gets extremely hot for many different reasons, it can become trapped in the casing due to shrinkage. So stick with 5" PVC or 4" Galvanized.
Who is drilling your well?
I can help you with the CSV, pump or most other water well parts if needed.
bob...
Pumpsandtanks.com
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: 1994]
08/04/06 05:21 PM
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I see, and I also see they mention some serious disadvantages, yet using a small pressure tank and switch has NO disadvantages like the start relay set up does; and I'll bet the tank and switch costs less too.
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
08/04/06 05:35 PM
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The drop pipe is the pipe the pump is hung on down the well; that assumes a submersible pump. The power cable is taped or otherwise attached to the drop pipe. Without a drop pipe, there's no way to 'support' a submersible pump in a well. You will need a drop pipe even if the well overflows 24 hrs/per day (a true artesian well [IMO]).
Submersible pumps have a check valve in or on the outlet; so there is no "foot valve".
I forgot about the problem Bob mentions of submersible pumps in 4" PVC casing but I do not like steel casing but that's based on 'potable' water quality issues.
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: GaryQWA]
08/07/06 10:51 AM
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Thank you for kindly explaining thigs to me. I have already talked to Bobby @pumpsand tanks.com. He explained to me how irrigation (low pressure high volume) and household do not mix well. Finally, it got to me.
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robertn
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Re: Artesian well pump: above ground or immersed?
[re: grower]
11/30/06 12:24 PM
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You need to use an irrigation controller that has an option for a pump relay. You want the pump to stay on while irrigating. It is bad for the pump to cycle on/off too much. Most irrigation manufacturers make setups for this.
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