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slapshot
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Using potassium permanganate and septic systems
05/30/06 01:49 PM
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I have pretty bad Iron and Sulfur in my water. I'm looking at getting a Greensand filter to use in with my Whole House and Softener.
The greensand filter uses potassium permanganate for backflushing. Does this backflush pose a problem for my septic system? I realize that there is extra water, but rather the chemicals that would be flushed into it.
Thanks
dave
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GaryQWA
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: slapshot]
05/31/06 11:14 AM
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A greensand filter is old technology and the water treatment industry is trying to get away from its use due to the use of potassium permanganate; a serious poison. But I've never heard of PP causing any septic system problems. I have seen and heard of it in 'your' water when the filter malfunctions though. It makes the water pink, and that is a serious problem and dangerous.
There are many other choices that are less expensive to purchase and maintain than greensand. They are an inline erosion pellet chlorinator followed by a special mixing tank and a Centaur carbon filter. An air pump system including a Centaur carbon filter. Or in some cases, a chlorine pellet dropper on the well casing.
If you have heavy iron, say over 2 ppm, you could have IRB (iron reducing bacteria) and that requires a disinfectant and will 'kill' any type filter without a disinfectant.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: GaryQWA]
06/01/06 04:02 PM
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GaryQWA, PP got hard for civilians to get in SOCAL. Although useful for such innocuous things as treating for ICK in aquaria it could be used for DIY abortions so got hard to get.
IF you have some make a small conical pile of the crystals (several spoonsful.) then make a small depression in the top so it looks like a volcanic crater. Now pour a few spoonsfull of glycerine into the depression and stand back. The PP begins to oxidize the glycerine and the heat builds up enough to ignite the glycerine, the whole while purple sparks will be flying and smoke will be generated simulating a small volcano erruption. Do this OUTSIDE and stay upwind.
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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BlueRidge
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
06/01/06 06:44 PM
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I thought that chemical sounded familiar! It's my old friend from 7th grade science class! Only we used a 'wick' of magnesium ribbon to ignite it.
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: BlueRidge]
06/02/06 03:10 PM
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Sorry Blue, I think your old friend was "THERMITE" which is commonly ignited with a magnesium strip leading into some powdered magnesium atop the thermite mixture. Thermite is used for certain welding operations as well as to destroy stuff like guns and tanks and such.
The potassium permanganate and glycerine is self igniting and would not require a magnesium "fuse."
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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BlueRidge
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
06/03/06 08:21 PM
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No, no no, Pat! Thermite would have burned right through the dish AND table and started on the concrete floor. We'd have made the 6 o'clock news... all across the country. This is NOT something you'd see in a school experiment!
But I guess it wasn't permanganate. I did a search and found this:
An exciting demonstration volcano can be made with a bit of ammonium dichromate. This is a fun science demonstration that takes almost no time at all to prepare. Place a small quantity (12 to 15 grams, or half an ounce) of Ammonium Dichromate powder on a clay tile. Form the powder into a cone shape. Dim the room lights, and light the top of the cone with a high heat source such as a propane torch. The ammonium dichromate will burn fiercely while producing large volumes of a grayish green ash. Small orange sparks will shoot upward a couple of inches.
This describes our experiment exactly, except for the use of the magnesium ribbon for the heat source. The ribbon was ignited by a Bunsen burner. I suppose this was to keep our hand away from those orange sparks...
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: BlueRidge]
06/04/06 10:08 AM
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Blue, I guess the demo of thermite I saw in school predated the hightened litigation and liability sensitivity that has overwhelmed common sense. I also saw people hold liquid mercurn in their hands and rub pennies with it to make them look shiny. You don't see a lot of that in schools today.
The Potassiouin permanganate and glycerine (like the glycerine in cosmetics NOT NITRO GLYCERINE) volcano is a tad more exciting than the one you describe but not so much as to be prohibitively dangerous. maybe there is a way to combine them and get both orange and purple sparks.
With the proper refractory materials such as a ceramic cone to contain the thermite and fire brick to stop the "China syndrome" it can be safely demonstrated but should be viewed from a little distance not right in yoiur face.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (06/04/06 10:51 AM)
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BlueRidge
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
06/04/06 08:00 PM
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I also saw people hold liquid mercurn in their hands and rub pennies with it to make them look shiny. You don't see a lot of that in schools today.
A few months back I read of a school - the WHOLE SKOOL - being evacuated because someone dropped a mercury thermometer in a chemistry classroom.
No, I'm not kidding, and yes, I know how to spell school. I though I'd adust it this time to reflect the intelligence of the administration. 
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: BlueRidge]
06/06/06 11:42 AM
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Blue, In a way the reaction to a broken thermometer seems potentially extreme but from other standpoints it doesn't seem so extreme. Some facts: Mercury vapor is highly toxic and constitutes a very dangerous hazard, much worse than touching it with your hand (still not recommended.) The HVAC system of the school may not have been zoned such that the single room could be shut down so potentially the threat could have been distributed throughout a building (probably not throughout a large campus.)
The clincher is that probably no one could quantify the danger and so they erred on the side of safety, likely with an eye toward limiting liability and cross section of exposure to litigation. If over the tenure of any exposed student, ANY SYMPTOMS remotely related to anything resembling heavy metal poisoning in general or mercury exposure in specific could have started a wave of litigation potentially bankrupting the school. There are parents who would have looked at this as an opportunity to "HIT THE LOTTERY" and not have to wait for Ed McMahon to show up.
The vapor pressure of mercury is such that it evaporates at normal room temperatures (unusual for a metal) forming significant vapor at normal room temperatures.
I had never heard of a school being evacuated due to a thermometer being broken but had heard of a school lab with wooden floors being condemned after years of broken thermometers.
In one of my early freshman chem labs one of the students heated mercury over a Bunsen burner (or was it a Fisher?) anyway the lady PhD chemist teaching the course held an intense one on one counselling session with the culprit. I think one of the offers on the table was expulsion from the class with a recommendaton for expulsion from the university for a repeat offense.
Familiarity breeds contempt. Folks get used to certain actions and over time think anyone advocating a change is being too extreme. I recall when lead in paint was first a PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE of note. Lots of folks went on and on about how they had been exposed to lead in paint for years and didn't have any body parts withering or falling off. Try to buy leaded paint now. Every paint can in my shop has lead paint warnings on it even if it is water based and lead free. (You might be about to scrape or sand an old leaded paint to prep it for a new coat of paint.)
I can recall when handling asbestos was as common as handlilng fiberglass batting. I never witnessed anyone dropping dead due to contact with it or breating in fibers. (Maybe I didn't watch long enough.)
The glass blower at the physics dept of San Diego State University really didn't like "doing" quartz and my LASER research required working with quartz for good UV transmission. When working quartz with glass blowing techniques, fibers of quartz end up in the air. They are very fine and float for quite a while. When inhaled they cause lung damage (silicosis) that is irreversible and NOT A GOOD THING. There is no cure except prevention. Lots of activities contribute to silicosis: sand blasting, desert dust storms, handling silica sand where you are exposed to its airborn dust, and so forth. Hey honey, I got this sand at work for free, now we can fill junior's sand box.
I'm not an alarmist nor an environmental radical. I am an optimistic realist, hoping for the best but dealing with realilty.
Oh, by the way... I once chewed up a mercury type glass fever thermometer but was able to spit out nearly all the glass and some of the mercury.
"I'm late, I'm late for a very important date!"
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (06/06/06 01:38 PM)
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BlueRidge
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
06/06/06 01:11 PM
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Extreme and stupid. Pat, the whole society has gone off its rocker on this. Mercury miners used to be routinely exposed to GALLONS of liquid mercury every day, with no ill effects. They periodically spent time in a sauna to steam the mercury out of their pores. Mortality data on them was no different than other miners. Mercury doesn't vaporize at room temperatures, and metallic mercury is virtually harmless, as is metallic lead. You have to WORK at making it a hazard.
You probably have some of it in a mild acid bath right now, in your mouth.
Just because you heard of a schoolroom being condemned doesn't mean it was a rational action.
It's no more rational than the current fad of ROUTINELY giving Hep-B vaccines to every baby. The probablilty of MEETING someone who has the disease (let alone actually being at risk for contracting it) is lower than the probability of an infection from a saline injection, even ignoring any possible complications from the vaccine itself.
It's not being prudent, it's just institutional stupidity.
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: BlueRidge]
06/06/06 03:25 PM
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Blue, The US GOV NOAA facility at Norman, Oklahoma has the Severe Weather dudes and dudettes. They did a statistical anlaysis on the expectation value of a residentaial structure receiving significant tornadic damage in the "HEART" of tornado alley (I'm only a few miles from the actual geographic center of tornado alley but the concept is pretty diffuse and the frequency of tornadic activity here versus miles away is essentially equal.
Anyway were not talking frequency of only utter destruction or just a shingle lifted but that of significant damage. The data support the contention that on average a residential structure in this area will receive significant tornadic damage is on the order of once in 4,000 years. I believe they did good science and don't flaw their math.
Then why do I advocate storm shelters? Why am I currently building 9/16 inch thick steel storm shutters for my saferoom/bedroom with the 8 inch thick concrete walls? A couple reasons: 1. I sold my wife on moving here with the promise that her bedroom would be her safe room and she could ignore tornado watches and just go to bed at night. (political reason) and 2. the practical reason, what if this is the 4,000th year? or maybe next year is it or...
True story: I forgot the name of the town but there was a town destroyed by a tornado. The citizens rallied together with community spirit and most stayed and rebuilt. The next year the town was destroyed by a tornado on the SAME DATE as the previous year. Still many of the citizens rallied together and rebuilding was begun. There were defections after each destruction but still after two wipeouts the rebuilding began anew. Yes, they were wiped out by a tornado again for the third year in a row ON THE SAME DATE!!!
A very unlikely coincidence, BUT it happened. I would have been safe and secure in the same saferoom with no saferoom rebuilding required except replacing the glass in the windows as the storm shutters are on the inside.
I think Murphy was an optimist when he asserted that anything that can go wrong will and usually does at the worst possible moment. having my home hit by a tornado is unlikely but if it is hit the downside potential is great enough to warrant preparing for the unlikely event.
I don't visit the Indian gaming facilities (casinos) that liter the countryside around here nor do I buy lottery tickets. Is this a contradiction since I otherwise prepare for long shots? Not really. How am I harmed if I don't win a jackpot? How would I be harmed if I "hit the tornado jackpot?" Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down. A tornado would make an effective messenger.
Not forgetting mercury poisoning...
Reasonable info on mercury poisoning
This is a practical reasonable and non-histerical description of mercury poisoning which also incloudes practical instructions for cleaning up a small mercury spill such as from a broken thermometer. Too bad the school officials were thinking liability and needing to seem CONCERNED FOR THE CHILDREN rather than being practical, and closing down the one room till it was cleaned up. (a common HVAC system with no separate air handler controls would have required securing the entire system. Mercury vapors are dangerous.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (06/06/06 03:54 PM)
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coxhw
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic systems
[re: slapshot]
08/03/06 03:13 AM
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Hey guys what happened to the origonal question
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: coxhw]
08/03/06 09:04 AM
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Cox dude, I checked your STEALTH BIO and saw no reference to your being appointed a member in good standing of the THREAD POLICE!
It is typical in this and other friendly gathering places type forums that after all or most timely informatioin that is going to be elicited has been elicited that we just enjoy ourselves.
Hope that doesn't enrage your librarian instincts.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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coxhw
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
08/03/06 03:39 PM
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Sorry, It's just that I have one of those filters and did'nt know that much about it. Hey the info. you guys are putting out is great. I just wanted to know more about that filter. The way everone is talking I might be looking for another filter. The one I have was at the house when I bought it. It does a good job on the iron and H2S smell. Any way sorry that I came over that way. Keep up the info
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: coxhw]
08/04/06 08:34 AM
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IF you want to see something off topic... Look at the how you tell a watermelon is ripe thread. Bird and I "DID IT AGAIN!"
Regarding the filter. When you have a working professional water guy here telling you the down side of your equipement it is definitely time to rethink the solution. Is it worth the risk to stay with the old system and maybe save a couple bucks? What is your family's health worth?
So far our well has produced sufficient water of good quality but being as how we are in an old oil field that was heavily worked back in the unenlightened days of pure greed and no regulations or adherence to any there were, it is common for wells to suddenly go salty. We have had rural water available for a year or so now and that gives the area an insurance policy (until the lake supplying the system goes dry.)
Some climatoligist say we could have another 5 years of drought coming. If so, we are in for hard times in this cattle producing area. Half of my ponds are partially spring fed and not stressed yet but when the ground water feeding them is exhausted and not replenished by rainfall.... this place will be Patrick's Desert Estates.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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GaryQWA
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: coxhw]
08/04/06 05:42 PM
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Since it is working well, don't fix it if it ain't broken comes to mind. Check back when you have to replace it. It's broken if the water is the slightest pink and don't drink or cook with pink water.
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: GaryQWA]
08/06/06 12:31 PM
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Gary, If it were your own installaltion would you just monitor the color of the water hoping no other family member got a drink in the dark to delay the installatiion of a new system or would you change it out without waiting for it to fail?
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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GaryQWA
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
08/07/06 09:03 AM
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I'd use it until it started to fail to remove the iron and H2S it is supposed to, then replace it. I would also instruct family members to draw a glass of water on their way to bed and take it to bed with them instead of drawing water in the dark. Or tell them to turn the bathroom light on instead of drawing water in the dark...
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: GaryQWA]
08/07/06 09:22 AM
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Gary, If it were a military organization you might be successful with your approach. Being just regular folks and considering the possibility of children I think playing Russian Roulette with water quallity to delay a retrofit's expense is risky business.
I for one have electrtoluminescent nite lites (the lime green glow thingies) and so we don't turn on bathroom lights in the middle of the night (it hurts my eyes to think about it) and in the reduced green light I don't think I could see if the water were colored.
Nah, here is where possible and practical part company. It is theoretically possible to be be disciplined enough but in practice I think it wouldn't be worth the risk to me. I don't see me holding a series of training seminars for friends, relatives, and guests to alert them to the risk of poisoning themselves from my tap. Even if I didn't care about anyone's well being, liability considerations would drive the economic decision making process toward a safer system.
I don't see setting up a small kiosk under the front porch with legal contracts and disclaimers for anyone entering the house to read through and sign acknowledgement of.
Slapshot didn't mention the ages of his children but I would like to see those numbers get a lot bigger and NOT worry if by some slight coincidence a kid forgot to turn the light on and check the color of the water before getting a drink coincidently when the dangerous system had failed. It would be little comfort to me to KNOW I HAD WARNED THEM and it was their own fault for not following simple instructions (what kid always follows instructions?)
You can not remove all possibility of anything bad ever hapening to a child but if you have a dangerous trip hazard do you tell eveyone to be aware and go on or do you fix it in a timely manner? Every kid gets warned to be careful around construction debris but does that excuse leaving boards laying about wth nails stiking up? How about bare live wires during a wiring project. Is it enough to say. "don't anyone touch a live wire" or do youi put a wire nut on the ends of exposed hot wires? My electricians cover all exposed live wires.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (08/07/06 09:34 AM)
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speedbump
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
08/08/06 08:51 AM
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You don't have to turn the lights on to see if the water is purple. When you get up in the morning you will be able to tell you drank PP by the brown stains on your teeth.
bob...
Pumpsandtanks.com
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
08/08/06 09:21 AM
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Pat, I believe you don't understand this type equipment and the overall risk of a glass of pinkish water. There is no comparison to live bare wires or upturned nails etc..
The OP asked about buying a greensand filter, he doesn't have one.
I also believe that our society would be well served if we all were more "military" in our day to day risk management; USAF '60-'65 and the insurance industry for 6 yrs, Dad Army '42-'46.
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: speedbump]
08/08/06 10:46 AM
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Right on Bob! OK kids, be sure to tell mommy if your teeth are brown in the morning and we will check with the doctor to see if there is anything to be done.
I wonder what a SAFE dose is? I wonder what a safe dose is when continued over time? I wonder how much you can have in your water and not notice. Folks get pretty casual about tap water. Who does colorimetry every time they run the tap?
OK, time for a serious comment... If I were a water quality expert and was comfortable managing my own small water treatment plant and had water quality issues that are routinely handled with PP (potassium permanganate), then I would probably use it until or unless there were a better way available.
I am not a water quality expert and would not feel really comfortable managing a PP water treatment setup without some training and would be evaluating alternatives before starting or indefinitely continuing a PP treatment system.
PP is a common treatment in professionally operated municipal water treatment systems. It is not inherently a BAD thing.
For some "light" reading on the topic of PP water treatment:
http://www.caruschem.com/pdf/PermanganateLiterature2004/Municipal%20Applications/Drinking%20Water/Permanganate%20FAQ%202004.pdf
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: GaryQWA]
08/08/06 11:05 AM
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Gary, I believe you are right, I don't have experience on PP water treatment systems. In my immediate preceeding post I stated that I am NOT an expert on water quallity and would not be comfortable running such a system without training. I gave a URL where PP treatment is well addressed. I acknowledged that PP is a common treatment in municipal syatems.
I'm not trying to be an alarmist so much as an advocate for doing what is safe and avoid unneccessary risk.
Again, you are right, I do not know how pink for how long before you'd risk kidney and liver damage, different folks have different sensitivities to various chemicals. In my preceeding post I acknowledged this.
I defer to you in your experience and knowlege with water treatment but sometimes familiarity breeds contempt, i.e. what is a casual thing to you might require a bit of attention from me the neophyte before I would feel comfortable. Further I think if you were serious about advocating using a system that requires you to maintain military discipline with children regarding water usage then I'd be shopping for a different system.
I certainly agree that a little more discipline in most folks lives would be a good thing, just not sure this is an appropriate application. So you were never in the military, huh? Me neither, I was in USAF '63-'67. Do you recall the main difference between the boy scouts and the USAF? Boy Scouts are required to have adult leaders.
Too bad my previous post and your last one on this topic passed each other in cyberspace.
If anyone knew a fair fraction of what you know about water treatment then I would not be concerned with their managing a system but I just can't buy into military discipline applied to children as a neccessary component of a safe water system. I guess that is the only real difference of opinion I have with you. I concede to your superior knowlege and experience on any other point of this topic.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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GaryQWA
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Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: Pat]
08/08/06 03:41 PM
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Pat, I didn't see Bob's or your other post when I replied.
This has taken on a seriousness that I didn't note in your original question to me... I read the question as what I would do in a certain, and hypothetical, situation, not what I would tell anyone else to do or what I would advise them to do.
Originally I replied to the OP not to go with a greensand filter and why. That should show where I come from but... you have put up a link concerning feeding, or otherwise using PP, on continuous basis, not as a regenerate for a residential greensand filter which is immediately run to drain and not added to the water serving the building the equipment is installed in. That's entirely two different things. And reading that article, I saw no mention of liver etc. problems, where does that enter into this?
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Using potassium permanganate and septic system
[re: GaryQWA]
08/09/06 09:17 AM
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Gary, I have proven again conclusively my claim that I don't understand all this water system stuff, certainly not as well as a professional like you.
I did some search in EPA and other areas for the effects of PP and got stuff on MSDS sheets like gastric distress but more complete searching turned up liver and other problems. I don't know for sure but I think the difference was a one time exposure vs a long term, repetitive, exposure like drinking slightly contaminated water for a long time. You have to wade through a lot of stuff about breathing the dust which seems to be the majority of the information.
If you want the URL's and can't find them, let me know and I will try (no guarantee) to retrace my steps and get them for you.
Lets don't misunderstand our differences, which are pretty small. I have absolutley nothing to quible about anything you said on the water treatment topic... except when it came to including the need for "military discipline" applied to children in order to have a safe system.
I am experienced with man in the loop systems (of many types) that require a knowledgeable operator to continuously monitor a process to control it or to ensure continuing operation within established parameters. I would not have a system that required that from a child. Children just don't do the right thing all the time and it would be an accident waiting for an opportunity to happen. NOT an everyday happening to be sure but it would NOT allow me to be comfortable with the system.
From a liability and risk management point of view I would make sure anyone I sold, installed, or to whom I recommended such a system to while acting in a professional capacity signed some pretty clear statements regarding the responsibilities of the system owner/users and their acceptanc of all risk and liabilitiy. Alternatively (perhaps concurrently) I would carry a HUGE E&O policy that wouldn't be cancelled the first time they had to pay.
If either aunt Sarah or her retarded child from Podunk Hollow was not amenable to military discipline was hyper sensitive to PP and the system got just a tad out of whack and gave her a reaction, real or imagined, the nephew, your customer and big time personal injury attourney might decide to test the depths of your pockets and those of your insurance company.
Yeah, Gary, I AM a stuck record. I just can't get on board with depending on a child as a legitimate part of process control with potentially dangerous health issues. I don't think I am much more comfortable with aunt Sarah much less her retard.
I'm not saying I'm completely right or that you are wrong but we are not in agreement when it comes to our risk assessment regarding process control. We are entitled to our own assessment and are free to offer argument supporting same, and have. I'm sure neither of us has convinced the other so we can just agree to disagree on this one point and go on happily from there. I still admire and respect your technical scope regarding water stuff.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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