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dubman
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Type of pump for 60 meter well?
03/24/06 03:24 PM
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I have just had a 60 meter (water appeared at 58 meters) water well drilled and I was wondering what kind of pump is best to use to pump water to a height of about 80 meters in total. The water has risen to about 7 meters form the surface, so how deep should the pump be dropped down? The well diameter is about one foot, so I assume it would need a long narrow pump. Is there some kind of automatic switch to make sure the pump would turn off if it was out of water (if the water level fell suddenly). I have seen well pumps with floating switches, but I think they need more than a foot of space (well diameter) to operate correctly. Any help greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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GaryM
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/24/06 04:05 PM
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Welcome to Country by Net.
I can't answer your well pump question, but it would be a good idea to put more information in your profile so we know more about you and your location. 
As you give your measurement in meters, I'm guessing you're not in the USA! Not that there's anything wrong with that! There are members here from lots of different places, maybe near you, but we won't know that until you fill out your profile.
Gary
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Hey! Aren't you supposed to be working?
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CJDave
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/24/06 06:31 PM
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 Odinarily, the well pump would be set at a depth which would keep it submerged in water when the well was actually pumping and the drawdown cone was at it's steepest. A 12" well is quite a good sized well for casual use. Is this an irrigation well or combination irrigation and domestic water source? Is 80M the total pumping head or is that just from the casing head and does not include the lift out of the well? What do you have for power? Electricity? Engines? How much water are you going to need in gallons per minute? Yes, there are several different types of auto shut-off devices to protect you from pump damage should you pump the well dry.
CJDave
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Pat
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: CJDave]
03/24/06 09:46 PM
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Submerged well pumps are available that will easily pump the required height, even if the well is drawn down to the botom. Yes they are long and small diameter, well under your well diameter.
There are water level switches of various implementation that can be used for shutting down the pump if it is out of water. One design uses a float to trip a microswitch. Some switches used to control bilge pumps in boats are of this type but DO NOT USE ONE WITH A MERCURY SWITCH. Better safe than poisoned. There are switches that work on air pressure. With these the actual switch would be connected to a diaphram in the air near the well head and a length of tubing would run down to or below the level in the well you want to sense.
Another type has electrodes that conduct a small electric current when submerged and a lot less when not (even though still wet.) This, in concert with some electronics, can disable the pump if the water goes below the level it is set for.
If I recall corectly there are pumps designed to be safe when run dry.
Submersable pumps are often mounted near but not at the bottom of the bore. This has a couple advantages: 1. silt and debris that might accumulate don't interferre with the pump as it is far enough above the bottom to avoid an accumulation and 2. you are less likely to run the pump out of water.
NOTE: The head of water to be pumped is measured from the surface of the water in the well to the highest lift point in the system. Extending the pump deeper does not increase the head. There will be a little loss from the water flowing through a longer pipe but if the pipe is sized correctly that will be negligible.
CJDAVE and others here are experienced professionals in waterwell/plumbing. I'm just a somewhat experienced "civilian."
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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dubman
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: Pat]
03/25/06 03:29 AM
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Hi, I should say the well is in the Pyrenees mountains north Spain and it is for domestic water (not sure yet if it will be ok to drink) . It is situated about 20 meters from a local river (you can usually cross it up to around knee level in water). It seems at 7 meters from surface of the well there is filtration from the river, but since there is an iron tube all the way down, we don't expect to have river water coming to the house. I estimate that the total distance from well bottom to the water tank in the attic to be about 80 meters.
I have no idea what make of pump to buy - could you suggest a suitable one with automatic switch off in case of no water in well? Preferably a robust and easy to install one? Would it be usual to have seperate water inlet to faucets and another one for tank water in attic? How would the typical setup installation be done from well to house? Thank you, appreciated.
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CJDave
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/25/06 06:29 AM
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Will the tank in the attic be a pressure tank, or simply an atmospheric tank?
CJDave
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GaryQWA
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/25/06 10:53 AM
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Here in the USA we would pump water to a precharged captive air pressure tank, not an atmospheric storage tank that would then provide gravity feed to our fixtures. We would normally control the pump with a pressure switch set at say 30-50 psi; on at 30 and off at 50. For low producing wells, we would use a low pressure safety cut off pressure switch. They shut off the power to the pump if the pressure falls below 20 psi; which happens if the pump doesn't have water to 'pump'. That prevents running a pump dry.
Our pressurized systems deliver water at better pressure than gravity feed but then that also allows us to use much more water, or you could say waste more while we power wash our butts..., which we do.
Here is a good site to learn about water pressure, well systems and pumps etc. and how all the components work together.
http://www.jessstryker.com/pump.htm
Here's info on submersible pumps and their design.
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex719?opendocument
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
Edited by GaryQWA (03/25/06 10:59 AM)
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dubman
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: GaryQWA]
03/25/06 01:54 PM
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Well for the moment I was just thinking of a normal water tank in the attic to gravity feed to faucets. I'm wondering what kind of pump would be best to use? Thank you
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CJDave
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/25/06 06:23 PM
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For an arrangement like you mentioned, you would need a float switch at the tank to shut the pump off when the tank was filled up, and then some electric probes in the well to shut the pump off if the well drawdown exceeded the level at which the pump copuld safely operate. There are probes which hang on wires and can easily be adjusted for the ideal shut-off water level. The probes will work in all waters except those which are very pure, such as rainwater.
CJDave
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GaryQWA
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/26/06 12:31 PM
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The most common type of pumps are submersible (in the well) and jet (on the surface). Jet pumps come in 2 types, single (suction only shallow well) and 2 line (deep well. A 2 line has the jet in the well and the single line type has the jet in the wet end of the pump. The single line type jet can lift water from 25 feet at sea level and two line jets can be used to roughly 150 feet with an extension pipe below the jet (j-body). Submersible pumps can be used to any depth and come in various hp and gpm ratings. Here for residential use, most submersible pumps are 4" (3 7/8" actually) but there are 3" pumps also.
Submersible is better than jet but both have advantages and disadvantages. You get better gpm and pressure from a submersible.
To pump into an atmospheric tank in the attic, a jet would work as long as there is water to pump at the depth of the suction line or j-body in the well. You would control the either type pump with a pressure switch IF you were to use a precharged captive air pressure tank instead of a gravity feed tank in the attic. And you could put the pressure tank in the attic.
With an atmospheric storage tank in the attic, you would use a solenoid valve controlled with a float switch. You shouldn't need to protect the pump from running dry due to the small volume of water needed to top off the attic tank but.... to do so you could use a low pressure safety cut off pressure switch, small expansion tank (2-3 gallon) and a solenoid valve before the tank.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/26/06 01:46 PM
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dubman, Hi, lets clarify a few terms, OK? Domestic water but you aren't sure you will drink it. Is it for flush toilets and or what? If you brush your teeth or bathe in it you will always ingest a little.
The tank in the attic... is it a storage tank for gravity feed to points of consumption or is the water heater?
These days filters are available to make most "reasonable" water fully safe and palatable so you could likely do OK with your well water and filters as needed.
I am probably not the most qualified here to make pump recommendations but as to ease of installation... The pump is attached to a pipe and is lowered into the well. A rope, polyethelene is a good variety, should be used to help support the pumps weight. YOu can lower the pump into the well and add sections of pipe as you do. You need to make a choice, if plastic pipe is used as is done here in the majority of cases, do you want to glue the joints together or glue on threaded couplers. There are a lot of successful instalations of both kinds. For experiences folks the glued joints are not a big deal when some day you need to "pull" the well for maint or pump replacement. For the rest of us, threaded joints make it easy. With threeaded joints you can take each section apart as you pull the pump back toward the surface. Otherwise, to my way of thinking it gets a bit iffy (altyhough I did it more or less with success, ONCE.)
When you "pull" a well with glued joints the pipe comes up and ends up in a huge spiral on the ground. Seems to work fine for a lotl of folks but it make me nervous. The time we pulled my well I had more or less experienced help and he wanted to leave the pipe in one section. It had threaded joints. It broke in a couple places at the joints when spiraling out across the ground.
You will need some sort of "well house" to enclose the plumbing at the well head. It should have a removable roof to permit handling the pipe in long sections. Here our PVC pipe comes in 20 ft lengths (6 meters). It is also a good idea to build the well house so that there is a place to attach a pulley or block and tackle directly above the well. A pipe of at least 2-3 inches in diameter horizontal above the well is handy as you can take a few wraps of the rope around it and make lt real easy to lower the pump and pipe with good control.
It is good to have this "capstan" several feet above the well's opening. This way you can lead the rope supporting the pipe and pump around a pulley (turning block) to a winch or vehicle and save a lot of manual effort pulling the well or lowering the pump and pipe into the hole. I have done it manually in a more shallow well than yours and I was younger then and it was WORK.
As to the pump... I'd try Google for submerged well pumps. Be sure you select something compatible with your supplied electrical power. I'm guessing you are 220-240 Volts AC and probably 50 Hz but anyway you want a compatible pump.
If you woiuld feel more comfortable getting a second (or third of rforth or...) after you find a few candidates of interest to you let the guys here take a look. As I said, there are experienced experts here as regards well pumps.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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CJDave
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: GaryQWA]
03/26/06 05:42 PM
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For pumping into an atmospheric tank my first choice would be a sub. When pumping at low TDH, it's quite easy to lose prime on a jet. A jet would need to be adjusted with the back pressure valve and when you are working with a well that has a lot of drawdown, where do you set the valve? A sub would deliver more consistently at the varable depth that he is expecting. The downside is that the sub does require more submerged depth because of the length of the motor, and you need to allow for some "fill-in" at the bottom of the well over time so that's another little bit of well depth sacrificed. Other than that, a sub has all of the advantages. A pump that small can run with full voltage through the switches, both the float level switch at the tank and the low-level shut-off at the well. Both switch systems permit remote mounting in any convenient location. Forget the pump house and just be sure to provide an elevated surface for the sanitary seal at the well head. As a long time pump guy, I have to say that I hate pump houses and I especially hate tearing them down to get to the pump. Also on my list of hates are wells that were drilled in what was once an open space and then later enclosed by gardens, buildings, chicken yards, even home expansions.....yes, I found a pump behind the living room couch once....  There's nothing like backing a big pump repair rig into a flower garden behind the garage to set up and pull a deepwell, and then have no place to highline the joints of pipe. 
CJDave
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turnkey4099
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: CJDave]
03/27/06 01:49 AM
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Good advice all the way!! Especially about the pump house. Feed through a pitless adaptor underground to the house.
Subject of an atmosphere tank in the attic. Really nothing wrong with it but you wind up with very little pressure. You only get .43 psi per foot rise. Then the installation of a pressure tank is simpler, just the pressure switch is all that is needed (with low pressure cut-off). In a tank you have to have floats, level sensor etc.
Harry K
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CJDave
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: turnkey4099]
03/27/06 06:33 AM
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That, plus: (1) what happens if the atmospheric tank accidentally overflows; and (2) what about structural requirements to accomodate that extra weight in the attic. A bladder tank in a downstairs closet is actually a better way to go, and as mentioned, it simplifies the on-off switching/safety shut-down arrangement considerably.
CJDave
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jimbrown
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: dubman]
03/27/06 05:30 PM
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Ahh sir. I think you are getting some good advice but much of it is missdirected. Most if not all of the advice is from people who have never lived in europe and have no concept of how different things are done there than here in the USA. I think you should look at the websites for water pumps to get an idea of the different types of pumps that are available. My experience is that in Europe this type of thing is not done by indviduals very often and that most of the pump type installers will be used to installing only commercial pumps. A 12 inch well here in the USA would almost always be a commercial well or a large irragation well. Most home/ personal wells are 8 inches or less. Many only 4 inches. If you have water at 7 meters a simple jet pump should work. I have no idea but I suspect that if you try to buy from a US source the import tax will be excessive. It seems this may be some sort of summer house. I would like to suggest that you do an internet search for "solar pumps" and look thru the items. I think a simple solar pump might meet your needs and there are several that are made in Europe or Japan that that might meet your needs and not be excessive in cost. My personal experience that buying things like well pipe and water proof wire ect are much more difficult in Europe than here in the US. I can buy those things at almost any "Home Store" and there are at least 20 well drillers/ pump installers within 100 kilometers of my house. I supect this is not true in your case. The advatange of a solar pump would be that you could install it yourself assuming that you can buy the pipe and wire and it is not illegal. Here in the US in most places it is legal for an owner to do all of his own plumbing, electrical wireing and telphone wiring. My experience that this is not true in most of Europe.
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dubman
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Re: Type of pump for 60 meter well?
[re: jimbrown]
03/29/06 04:40 AM
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I assume I would need to analyse the water to see if it is dirinkable. Yes I have a floating switch in the attic tank plus an overflow pipe going out through the exterior wall..just in case...
Thank you.
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