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hudr
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Rain water hravesting
01/30/06 06:42 PM
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New member here, some of y'all may recognize me from the TBN site.
Anyway, did a search and found an old post (03) on rain water harvesting. This is something I am interested in if only to water the yard, wash the vehicles, etc. Has anyone out there actually done this, or is it mainly one of those "Gee, if I had the time and $$$ I would...." type projects? I think I could build most of the stuff I would need. Or is there some commercially available products out there?
thanks in advance
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rebelmedic
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
01/30/06 08:01 PM
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We have`nt done it but are concidering adding a system to a Jerry Baker green house we will buy this summer. The supplys are sold by garden supply stores. Building will be cheaper but you can get some ideas on the store pages. Heres a page on how to do one yourself.
http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gardening/article/0,1785,HGTV_3546_2165903,00.html
you`ll have to type the last part of url your self the link goes to their home page
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egon
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: rebelmedic]
01/31/06 08:50 AM
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Some households in South East Alaska depend on stored rainwater.
From what little I saw they used about 250 barrel?? tanks and collected from their building roofs.
Egon 
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sneaky_pete
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
01/31/06 03:30 PM
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Hello all; I've been on TBN for a year and a half and finally decided to take a look at CBN.
I will be required to have a rainwater catchment system for the house I plan to build in New Mexico (county zoning regulations), so I hope to learn some good stuff from this thread.
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hudr
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: rebelmedic]
01/31/06 05:36 PM
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What I am really looking for is the Adapt-a-Kit I thought I saw one time that basically hooked to the end of a shortened downspout and had a regular 3/4" garden hose spigot on it. Although after looking at the problem a bit more, I would think I would want something w/ a bit more flow. Like having the downspout come right into the top of the tank/barrel/cistern. Also, thoughts on pre flushing and filtering (who knows, might have to drink the stuff one day) 
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AndyC
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
02/01/06 08:05 AM
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We have a number of rain catchment systems in our area. I have treated quite a few for different purposes from strictly utility water to household water intended for consumption.
In Seneca Co, in Ohio there are many such systems adapted from century old farms where that was the only source of water as well weren't dug and water deliveries weren't available. Some of these old farmers are convinced this is the ONLY way to have water.
There is a double-edged sword when working with rain water. On one hand hardness levels are quite low n the range of 2-5 grains per gallon but rather high in acidity with a pH of around 6.0. Nitrate/nitrites levels can be high. Bird dirt, road dust, animal carcasses and a whole slew of other unmentionables can enter your water reserve via it 'natural' distribution system.
Furthermore, it depends on how you 'collect' the rain water. Do you use steel (painted or unpainted) roofing material, asphalt shingles, do you use 'gutter helmet' on your eves, do you use a diverter valve, what material is the catchment basin made of and what capacity? There are as many different systems as there are treatments for those systems.
Acid neutralizing and disinfection are two key considerations even if used 'mostly' for utility work. Regardless, it will be a bit of a baby-sitting job to make sure the water remains consistent and your water treatment system functions properly.
Don't take shortcuts or you will be cut short on quality and satisfaction. Describe more of your intentions and I may be able to share some of our installations.
Andy
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twstanley
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
02/01/06 08:19 AM
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I can't seem to find the article I looked at before...grr.
Anyhow, I think it was either mother earth news or homepower magazine, one gentleman had a system with multiple large tanks tied together and filled from his guttering system that provided all his water needs.
A box is used that the water runs into from the guttering that acts as a sort of setling basin for leaves, whatever to settle out in or be strained out, then the water flows out an exit that is a few inches higher than the bottom of the box and then into the storage tanks. He had a normal pressure tank fed by a jet pump I think it was to provide pressurized water to his house.
I'm not sure what they did for purification or filtration.
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Bird
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
02/01/06 11:06 AM
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Now I don't know anything about harvesting rain water, but I do remember in the early '50s when we were lucky, I guess; had a good well and windmill with plenty of water and cooked and heated with propane, but our nearest neighbor still cooked and heated with wood. And their only source of water was a cistern, I remember the rain water off the roof ran through a big charcoal filter but I don't remember exactly how big and don't know how often the charcoal was replaced. And during dry spells they sometimes had to haul water from town.
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hudr
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: AndyC]
02/01/06 03:29 PM
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I would like to start out just capturing enough to take care of watering a small garden (no more than an acre or so) and keeping the lawn from completely drying out. Currently we live in a 60x40 metal bldg on our property (currently 55 acres)w/ a 15' shed down one 60' side. I have noticed quite a bit of water being shed on just cool mornings from condensation. When we eventually build a house on this same property(ICF and metal roof), I would like to upgrade my capacity to at least include flushing the toilets w/ harvested water, if not a whole house system w/ filtration. right now, I really want to stay away from any config that requires a pump. But in the future that will probably be a necessity to provide ample pressure.
Ultimate goal, being as far off the grid as possible.
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Pat
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
02/01/06 10:17 PM
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The farm where my mom was born and raised (near Bray, OK) had a concrete cistern large enough for her dad to get inside and clean it annually with clorox bleach. They let the rain water wash the roof for a while before opening a little door in the porch wall and reaching out to move the downspout over to the cistern input. Mom nearly got hit by lightning while reaching out to move the downspout. Just a good zap not a big direct hit. They also would collect clean snow and shovel it into the cistern in winter.
Fast forward to the present day with lots of polutants in the air. Acid rain? I'd be looking for a lot more than an activated charcoal filter to process rain water before drinking it these days. Bird flu can be transmitted through bird droppings. Bird droppings have a way of ending up on roofs. How long would a prudent man wait when it was raining before collecting water with avian flu virus in it? Hmmm, I wonder what a prudent man would use to filter the rain water prior to drinking it.
I guess there is more than one way to be GREEN.
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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hudr
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: Pat]
02/02/06 07:19 PM
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I agree that there are probably pollutants in rain water. I realize the water will have to be filtered, treated or something before it is consumed by humans. That is one reason I want to start out pouring it on the lawn and letting the livestock drink it. We have had a pretty bad drought going on here the last year or so. Our water useage went from about 3000 gal/month to well over 10000 gal/month. We were watering stock from the faucet. I would like to avoid that in the future. Not just from the $$ standpoint since I think it will take quite a while to realize any savings from this system, but also from the "good steward" standpoint. I also would like to be a lot more self-reliant. My children also need to be introduced to the concept of self-reliance. If we have any kind of catastrophe around here (fire, flood, drought, ice storm) I don't want my reaction to be "I'll just sit down right here and wait for my gov'ment to take care of me".
AndyC: I am just getting into the mechanics of the system now. I had a local "gutter installer" come out and look at the house, but will regular residential gutters handle the load if h2o backs up? Also, I was told there had to be a downspout every 30ft to alleviate the load. This would have me putting barrels at all 4 corners of the bldg. I want this done right and would love to learn from someone else's mistakes
Edited by hudr (02/02/06 09:20 PM)
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Pat
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
02/02/06 09:42 PM
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hudr, Hopefully all the airborn activity from Chernobyl and similar are dissapated (some say NOT.) Rain and snow can also be radioactive as well as chemically polluted. Your motivations are certainly good. I hope the outcomes match.
Our Mexican property (Baja California) is in a development that is solar power only and has no local civil water distribution as a government entity. All water is trucked and stored in various size and type tanks. I helped a neighbor install a 2400 gal underground tank. He superchlorinates the water and then filters it at time of use. This prevents anything from growing in the stored water (tank or lines) but gives taste and odor filtration that removes the chlorine as it is dispensed.
I went a cheaper route with multiple recycled food grade plastic drums. They were originally filled with Kikoman Teriyaki sauce but cleaned up nicely and soon lost all trace of Teriyaki. With all the Clorox the Teriyaki didn't last long. It took more engineering and plumbing but was cheaper and I didn't have as much problem burying them. Multiple shallow holes were easier than a single large deep one, cave in wise (desert location with lots of sand.)
As the average rainfall there is 3 inches/year we didn't consider catching rain. Of course we took a hit from a hurricane a while back and that provided lots of rain.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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robertn
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: hudr]
02/21/06 07:49 PM
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Try looking for articles about Island life? I did a trip about 5 years ago to St Thomas in the US Virgin Islands. Most water was from roof-top collection. The house we stayed at had something like a 5000gal tank in the basement.
If you did not collect rainwater, it could be bought from a desalination plant, and trucked to the house($$$).
Otherwise, you didn't have much for water...
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captinjack
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: robertn]
05/17/06 08:22 AM
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I have been using roof captured rain for the last 10 yrs. at my WV deer camp that I use at least on a monthly basis.
My property doesn't have any ground water as the coal mines have drained all of it away. A cistern is the only water that I have. I collect if off an aluminum roof, aluminum gutters, PVC piping and a 1500 gallon food grade made for the purpose polyethylene cistern.
Filtration is via a small combination carbon and particulate filter that I change about 4 times a year whenever pressure/volume decreases.
We have an in-door toillet that is the largest consumer of water, however, we also utilize the out house when convenient.
We have had problems with water odor on a temporary basis once, and am currently having a problem with discoloration that eventually goes away if I use a lot of water over a weeks stay. Haven't figured out what it is yet, but it is not harmful as with proper filtering it tastes good and hasn't affected me yet.
So far it has met our needs completely, however, we don't live there all the time. The cistern is almost always full whenever we arrive so we almost never check the level anymore excepting when 40 people come down to camp for the fourth of July annual pig roast and stay for a week. We must be careful then and a thunderstorm instead of being a bummer, actually is a blessing.
If I had to do it over again, I would pump out of the 1500 gallon tank underground to a larger tank up the mountain and rely on gravity feed and a larger storage capacity. I think that system would work for year round living.
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GaryQWA
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: captinjack]
05/17/06 09:38 AM
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You should look into the pH of the water and the effect of aluminium on the human body with long term exposure. If the pH is acidic, you could have an amount of aluminium, copper and lead from lead based solder in the water that is not good for you. BTW, there is no MCL (max contaminate level) for aluminium in potable water but there is a lot of data showing evidence that you don't need much to cause a problem.
Also, your carbon filter... bacteria love to breed in carbon. Bacteria creates gas and that is the odor you smell. You should inspect the inside of your storage and see if there is any slime formation and if so clean and disinfect the tank. And I suggest some type of bacteria controlling water treatment because of the source of the water but then it sits stagnant for long periods of time too.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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BlueRidge
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: GaryQWA]
05/17/06 07:38 PM
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Gary, you beat me to it on the aluminum issue. I would NOT drink that water except in an emergency.
Gary, what do you think about ozone treatment for a cistern like that?
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CJDave
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: GaryQWA]
05/18/06 05:43 AM
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 Great post, Gary...... you covered all of the salient points. Just another example of something that looks so simple actually being complex upon inspection.
CJDave
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GaryQWA
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: CJDave]
05/18/06 08:39 PM
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Thanks for the kind words guys. Ozone is the most powerful and fastest acting disinfectant/oxidizer we have. Out on the West Coast they use it in on the surface large tanks/cisterns. The problem with that approach is that you need to get the ozone spread out throughout the column of water, and that can be difficult. A problem with ozone it its production and the volume produced. It is difficult to produce a consistent volume unless you have very dry air so in high humidity areas, you may need an air dryer and they have high maintenance. I'd go with chlorination and dechlorination as the water leaves the tank.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: GaryQWA]
05/19/06 08:57 AM
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Right, Gary, put it in and take it out. Down in Baja were water is delivered to many winter retreat residences by truck and stored in a tank till used in days or months or next year the smart folks super chlorinate the storage and then filter it out as dispensed.
The required equipment is simple as once the quantities are calculated it is just a matter of adding sufficient chlorine bleach. Knowing when to change the point of use activated charcoal filters is a matter of personal taste, literally. If you can smell/taste the chlorine it is time to change the filter.
Good call on the aluminum... but be careful you don't attract the ire of the "junk science" squad who poo-poo everything that is non lethal withing a couple minutes of contact.
I remember when aluminum pichers were quite common, some anodized in various bright colors to match or contrast with popcorn bowls or whatever and some in plane unfinished aluminum. These were used to serve cold drinks ranging from ice water to lemonade. Aluminum citrate anyone?
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: Pat]
05/19/06 10:05 PM
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Heck; there was a time aluminum pots and pans were real popular. 
Egon 
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Pat
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: egon]
05/19/06 10:47 PM
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Egon, I still have aluminum pots and pans but they are coated with a high temp plastic inside. I have several stainless steel pots and pans with thick sole plates of aluminum to more evenly sprread the heat. I have precious few aluminum items that contact food or drink in more than a brief casual manner.
Brief history lesson: During WWII American households were asked to give up their aluminum cookware for the war effort. The aluminum of the pots and pans would require about the same effort as making "new" aluminum of higher quality to refine as required for most war effort uses. SO... the GOV just stored the stuff. There was also the psychological effect of giving up something for the war effort that let the folks at home feel "connected."
After the war the GOV sold the aluminum to companies that melted the aluminum down and made (are you ready for this?) POTS AND PANS. There were plenty of door to door pots and pan salesmen after the war, after all a lot of families were in need of pots and pans having given theirs up for the war effort.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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lbrown59
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Why
lb
3 Kubotas
1 BX23
2 BX1500s
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Pat
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Re: Rain water hravesting
[re: lbrown59]
06/16/06 09:53 AM
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WHY NOT!
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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