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AncientHouse
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Where is the air coming from - news
09/23/05 04:47 PM
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Hi Everyone,
Finally found out that there is a hole in the diaphram of the pressure tank. I was told that we'd have to change the whole tank. Anyone go through this? When the diaphragm goes, does the whole tank have to be replaced? Kind of like when a compressor goes on an air conditioner, it's pretty well the same $amount as the whole air conditioner.
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Inspector507
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Loc: Central Ohio
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: AncientHouse]
09/23/05 06:31 PM
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Bladders in some brands are made to be replaced, but from pricing one for mine, I might decide a new tank is not that much more. My tank is too small in my opinion, that's why I might buy a new one, just larger.
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GaryQWA
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: AncientHouse]
09/23/05 10:24 PM
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Most tanks don't have replaceable bladders and of those that do, once you change one, you usually won't want to do it again. I vote for a new tank that allows the pump to be off for at least 60 seconds or more between starts. That saves motors and electric.
Gary Slusser
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: GaryQWA]
09/24/05 01:04 PM
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With bladder tanks, bigger is usually better. Well spaced longer pump runs are much much kinder to the pump/motor.
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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AncientHouse
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: Pat]
09/28/05 11:03 AM
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Seems the opinions all go towards buying a new pressure tank. How large is a good size for a family of four with 2 full bathrooms? Is a bladder tank the way to go? Or are there other types that are better?
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: AncientHouse]
09/28/05 02:36 PM
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Ancient, Again, bigger is probably better. Bladder tanks have SURGE capacity far in excess of your well pump. You could do without a tank entirely but if more than one or two water users (hose bibs, appliances, shower, etc) asked for water at the same time you would immediately suffer a pressure drop and loss of volume at the using site. You could upsize the well pump to handle the worst case but the pump, motor and the price tag would be realy large and the motor life would be short due to all the starts (short cycling.)
ENTER THE PRESSURE TANK... A small pump running longer to fill the pressure tank is cheaper to buy and operate and lasts longer. The pressure tank prevents short cycling. Bladder tanks do not lose air into the water and require frequent recharging with an air compressor as do non-bladder style pressure tanks.
How big a tank? How high is up and how long is a roll of string? How many applainces and other water consuming devices do you need to support simultaneously? Will you run the dishwasher and clothes washer at the same time, EVER?? Will anyone ever take a shower while a washer is running, flush a toilet, etc etc????
A larger tank will support more water users for a longer time befor it calls for help from the well pump. The well pump will last longer if the pressure tank is larger.
So, in theory, yo cold get by with no tank. Someone may try to sell you a 15 gal... don't buy it! You NEED at least a 40 gal tank and bigger woild definitely be better. Lots of folks skimp on tank size and don't realize how short sighted it is. A bigger tank will prolong the life of your pump and give you more convenient service.
For a rigorous approach to sizing a tank...
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:NrojGhcGzH8J:www.doh.wa.gov/ehp/dw/DesignManual/chapter11.DOC+bladder+tank+sizing&hl=en
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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AncientHouse
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: Pat]
09/29/05 08:50 AM
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Thanks. Makes complete sense.
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GaryQWA
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: AncientHouse]
09/29/05 12:16 PM
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I think you may find this much easier and more appropriate.
http://www.aquascience.net/tanksizing.htm
Gary Slusser
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: AncientHouse]
10/02/05 11:32 AM
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Ancient, There is one small benefit of the plain tank with no bladder. It takes on disolved air which gives water a better taste. Probably your well water has enough disolved air to be just fine. If you take a fresh drawn glass of water (remove any aerator first) and sit it on the counter and let it come up to room temp and see a lot of bubbles forming on the walls of the glass on the inside then you have disolved air which is a good thing. LIghtly stir the de-aired glass of water and put it in the frige till it cools. Taste it. Pretty flat tasting stuff.
Usually there is enough air in well water (aerator foucets help too) for good taste and the hassle of refilling a non-bladder tank isn't needed.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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CJDave
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: Pat]
10/02/05 11:00 PM
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Pat... ......you are inching ever closer to displacing another individual that I have had on my mental list for years; a person who has repeatedly received the nomination for: Most General Knowledge Concentrated In A Single Person.  PAT....is there ANYTHING that you can't discuss? Wobble-plate hydraulic pumps? Butyl Isomers? Anti-Lock Brakes? Putting Up Turnip Preserves? Corn Combine Yield Monitoring Systems? Accounting Spreadsheet Basics? Reverse-Rotary Well Drilling? There has to be SOMETHING?? 
CJDave
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GaryM
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: CJDave]
10/03/05 06:44 AM
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He makes it all up, and we're not smart enough to catch him! 
Gary
----------------------------------------------
Hey! Aren't you supposed to be working?
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egon
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: GaryM]
10/03/05 07:45 AM
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Careful Gary - The fellow in question will be having to buy a new hat or will he just float away?
Egon
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GaryQWA
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: egon]
10/03/05 10:14 AM
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Well I'm going to have to disagree with the use of an air over water type pressure tank. That dissolved air (oxygen) is absorbed into the water over time and that causes short cycling of the pump, which ruins motors and spins the electric meter.
So to prevent the absorption problems, you need an AVC (auto air volume control valve) and they replenish the air in the tank buy sucking air out of the immediate area around the tank. In some cases that's not a good idea, and they are just one more thing to fail.
Another negative to this type tank is that most well water will have some iron or manganese in it and the air (oxygen=oxidizer) will convert the iron and manganese to particulate matter in the tank, making the water dirty. The air can also support aerobic bacteria, that is not good.
Plus, the vast majority of folks don't like the air in their water.
You can't beat the (modern) captive air precharged bladder tanks. They have evolved over time into the best choice and meet all regulations for potable water use and are equivalent to much larger air over water tanks including all versions of that type. And the bladder type will cost the least while taking up minimal space.
Gary Slusser
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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CJDave
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: GaryQWA]
10/05/05 07:08 AM
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 I'm with Gary on this one. I have been dinking around with hydro-pneumatic water systems since I was feeding calves on the dairy in 1950; and my seven-year-old brain first understood how the water-logged tank SOMEHOW kept me from having enough pressure to get water out to the farthest calf pen. Later, when I owned pump companies....two of them...... we installed air compressors; tricky little diaphram devices, bleeder pipes on submersibles, differential-activated air injectors, YOU NAME IT; in an attempt to replace the air that was absorbed at the water-air interface. They all worked......somewhat...but they's nothin' like one o' them captive-air tanks.......they put an END to water-logging.
CJDave
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: CJDave]
10/12/05 02:21 PM
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Dave, I take your comment complementarily. Regarding "Putting Up Turnip Preserves? Corn Combine Yield Monitoring Systems?" I have to claim ignorance on turnip preserves but could engineer a workable yield monuitoring system.
Years back my bro-in-law labeled me an information junkie. I have an insatiable desire for info that sometimes runs in "phases" like my small plane pilot phase, hang gliding phase, SCUBA phase, sailboat racing phasechery phase, etc etc. He compared me to a little robot in the movie, "Short Circuit" who was always saying "More input!"
The most important thing I know is how little I know of what there is worth knowing and the more I know the smaller I know my percentage to be.
My knowledge is not equally spread. I have watched entire episodes of Jeopary where I answered virtually all the questions before any contestant and then another time I won't know hardly any of the answers.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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CJDave
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Re: Where is the air coming from - news
[re: Pat]
10/12/05 10:02 PM
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I've had the same experience watching "Jeopardy". There are certain categories which cause me to draw a complete blank from my memory storage, and it amazes me that anyone could even want to know that stuff. Authors, Greek gods, playwrites, etc. I don't mean to portray myself as a bubba, but sometimes I feel like it when I am watching Jeopardy. What I do in those instances is tell myself that: "Well, they probably don't know their way around a double-rocker Chrysler engine like I do, so that makes us even." This sort of reminds me of that commercial where one guy asks: "Have you ever been through Mach 2 in a fighter jet with the canopy open?" The other guy replies: "No I haven't. Have you ever had Colt .45 Stout Malt Liquor?" First guy: "Er...No." Second guy: "Then we're even."
CJDave
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