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AncientHouse
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Where is the air coming from
08/10/05 12:17 PM
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Hi there,
We gutted a 140 year old fieldstone farmhouse because it wasn't taken care of for a while, we replaced almost everything except for anything to do with the well which was in good shape and we kept the pressure tank. We had all the plumbing replaced. When the plumbers were done, we told them there was air in the lines. They said it had to be the hot water tank (we didn't replace it). We tried draining the tank etc. but do to so much iron through the years, we decided to replace the hot water tank. This took care of the iron but not the air problem. The utility company rechecked the tank and said that the air is not coming from the hot water tank. Any ideas? There is air in both hot and cold but more in the hot water. More in the morning but also throughout the day. Could this be coming from the pressure tank? We have a bunch of water cleaning systems including a water softener, iron extractor, sediment filter and UV. We also have a Reverse Osmosis system for the drinking water. These are all new and aren't causing the air. We've been struggling with this problem for a while. Any ideas?  Calling the old plumbers is not an option as we weren't too happy about the way they tended to want to shortcut everything  This is the first time we've dealt with a pressure tank and well so we don't know much about them.
Thanks.
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twstanley
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/10/05 12:59 PM
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Hmm, air in the water...like the faucet sputters and coughs while turned on you mean?
Try eliminating things one at a time, perhaps open an outlet closest to your pressure tank and see if you have air in the line when it is just the well->pressure tank->outlet circuit.
Is the water level in your well low enough to be getting air in the circuit?
I am not sure but if the pressure tank or anything on the pressurized side of the valve had a leak I would think water would come out at that point as opposed to sucking air in...
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jimbrown
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/10/05 05:35 PM
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My thoughts.
If there were leaks on the outlet side of the pressure tank water would leak/squirt out. The leak almost has to be on the suction side of the the pump. You say the well was in good shape. Do you know how deep it is, what the water level is, how deep is the pump or pump head. How old is the pipe going down the well. If it is a submersible pump it it may not be deep enough in the well or the static level of the water is so low the pump sucks air. If it is a jet pump one of the down pipes may have rust holes in it.
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egon
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: jimbrown]
08/10/05 08:09 PM
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Maybe hold a lighted match near the faucet when the air starts coming out. It just may burn!! 
Egon
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GaryQWA
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/11/05 09:28 AM
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It can not be the water heater unless the temp is too high and the T/P valve isn't working. And if it was the heater, how would the air be in the cold water, which it couldn't get out of the heater into the cold unless the dip tube was missing or broke?
So either the air is being added to the water by the water treatment equipment OR the pump is sucking air OR you have methane in the water, which will burn.
You need to provide more info.
What type of pump; submersible in the well or jet above ground? If jet, one line or two to/from the well with one large dia than the other?
What type of pressure tank; captive air precharged (bladder type) or old galvanized air over water type?
Exactly what type of water treatment equipment for the iron; air pump, air injector, oxidation with ozone, chlorine, hydrogen peroxide etc. or just a backwashed filter? That is before the softener right?
Is all the the water treament equipment new? Was it moved when the plumbing was redone?
Gary Slusser
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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AncientHouse
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: twstanley]
08/12/05 12:38 PM
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This has been an ongoing problem. As for why I think the well is in good shape is that it's a 250 feet drilled well and we haven't had any problems with the supply of water and the pressure that we get so I'm assuming the well is working. Everytime we test the water it is actually drinkable prior to all the water treatment machines but it would taste bad. The water treatment people told us the air isn't coming from their machines. We still have to check for methane and we checked the pressure with a tire gauge. I'll let you know how it goes with the methane. Is this the Gary from the plumbing chat? What happened to that chat? Was it closed down? This is my ongoing air issue. We haven't tried the methane test yet  but we will. 
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GaryQWA
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/12/05 04:11 PM
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I see I have an error above, where I mentioned the dip tube, that should be the anode rod. The dip tube is on the cold inlet, not the outlet.
Oh right, if the treatment guys are using air for part of their treatment and there's air in the water now, certainly it can't be THEIR equipment! Wrong, it is their equipment, although you didn't tell me what it is they are using.
Yes, although and probably because I'm not a plumber, I answer water quality and treatment equipment, well pump and water well questions on a number of plumbing forums. But recently I was banned from one (plbg.com), quietly so others wouldn't know, due to my publicly disagreeing with the owner about the use of PVC female fittings. We then had extensive private email communication.... It's not a nice place so I didn't mind the banning, just the small minded cause. But maybe you mean doityourself.com's Plumbing section Filters and Conditioners forum.... I posted there for a year, until last March, and it became a very popular forum and I was a moderator there. I was banned after 830+ posts due to politics and one guy, he posts on plbg.com, not liking my tag line which included my company name; which I had used for all but the first two posts I made there. My posts are still there, with the company name edited out by Doug Alshire, another moderator. He wasn't the guy I have the problems with though, that is DUNBAR PLUMBER. He has threatened to get me banned everywhere I post. He dislikes anyone that 'corrects' anything he says, and bans them or works toward getting them banned. I'm currently working on clipping his wings... 
Gary Slusser
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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AncientHouse
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: GaryQWA]
08/12/05 04:48 PM
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That's too bad. You were very helpful. It was plbg but I couldn't get in. It said they were changing format. Then I found this forum which had a bunch of different subjects which helps when you live in the country. I'll check what machines I have and post on Monday. I know the RO works with air but we don't have air in the separate faucets where the RO water comes out.  I'll also check for air in the water by taking water from the pressure tank into a plastic bottle and see how it goes.
Thanks. Have a great weekend.
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/13/05 10:20 PM
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My mom's house does not have any filtration equipment at all and is fed from a well. Recently a line from the well to a frost free hydrant nearly a quarter mile away was extended to provide an alternate water supply to my new house. During the plumbing work, adding the extension to the new house, the well was turned off and the line toward the new house drained so the extension could be added.
For nearly two weeks after this the water at my mom's house was cloudy (FULL OF AIR.) After the initial gurgling and sputtering while the gross air was being expelled from the lines the water remained milky in appearance for about two weeks or more. If you got a glass of cold tap water it looked quite milky but in a minute or so the itsy bitsy air bubbles would rise and be dissapated.
I was quite busy and did not research the cause and it cleared itself. It remains a curious anomaly. Should it happen again I may investigate further.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Bird
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: Pat]
08/14/05 05:54 AM
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Pat, that milky looking water that would clear up after sitting for awhile happened several times to us while we were living out in the country. I think it's pretty common with rural water systems, and I know what it is (air of course) but never quite understood the how and why of it.
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AncientHouse
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: Pat]
08/15/05 11:42 AM
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Unfortunately, this is an ongoing problem. We've been here for a year and still have air. People kept telling us to wait it out but it still hasn't gone away.  I wish it was that easy.
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CJDave
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/16/05 02:05 AM
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Dear Plehistocene Dwelling: Is your well pump by some chance a submersible? If the pump is a sub, you may be getting air from an over-active air charging system. Subs are set up such that the top joint of pipe drains out when the pump is not running. Then when the pump restarts it pushes that pipe full of air into the tank. By doing that, the tank air charge can be maintained. If the tank bleeder valve is kaputzo, there is nothing to exhaust the excess air and maintain the correct air level in the tank. When that happens, air will enter the discharge port of the tank and go into the water supply system. The air valve is usually located halfway up on the tank; has a gauge port on it; has a little float inside the tank that monitors water levels. If your sub was originally set up for a galvanized tank and someone installed a bladder tank on it after the galvanized tank went south, that could also be the problem. The pump keeps pushing air and the system doesn't need it. You can install a "catch" tank in the system and PUMP THROUGH IT, and on that tank have a Watts or similar make of air bleed valve right on top. As the air bubbles enter the tank they will seek the top and the air bleed valve will get rid of them.
CJDave
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: Bird]
08/16/05 07:59 PM
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Bird, I too had no doubt regarding the identity of the milky look to the water, surmising as you did that it was air, quite fine air bubbles. I don't know how much of this the rural water district customers get. The instance we just experienced was from our own well. We had "disturbed" status quo by switching the well off and closing the output valve that controls flow from the tank to all points of use to facilitate extending one of the lines to the new house. Shortly after turning the well pump switch and valve to "normal" we got milky water for a couple weeks. Why so long is the mystery.
With the sediment filtration system I installed in the new house, I suspect that even very fine bubles would be strained out and maybe consolidated to just a few large bubbles. This is untested speculation but seems reasonable.
We are currently having another water problem... RAIN in the middle of August in the middle of Oklahoma. This is the greenest August I have ever personally witnessed in Oklahoma and ditto for my mom. The last set of showers delivered 4 1/2 inches in about 30 hrs. All my ponds were already overflowing and yesterday they were overflowing big time. You could hear the rushing water loudly at the new house. This is not a complaint!, just an observation... B U T I need a few days of drying so I can back my truck and or trailer up to the house to move furniture.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (08/16/05 08:03 PM)
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Bird
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: Pat]
08/16/05 08:14 PM
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Pat, we've finally been getting a little rain in the evenings; nothing like you got (or the Wichita Falls area got), so we wouldn't mind having a little more, but we're just thankful for what we got
I think the times we got the milky looking water was when they'd been working on a line somewhere, repairing leaks and things like that. It would usually last for about a week before clearing up again.
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/16/05 08:22 PM
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Ancient, I have installed a large (about a half gallon) sized sediment filter in the water supply at the new house and speculate that it would coalesce small bubble into larger ones.. Then you have to deal with the larger bubbles! Luckily there are air removal devices. I have one installed in my hydronic heating system and it should work fine for potable water as well. You will need to coalesce the little bubles into larger bubbles for this device to remove the air for you.
It works like the needle and seat in the float bowl of an old fashioned carburettor. As air comes through this device bubbles are trapped and float up into a small chamber with a float and needle and seat arrangement. As air accumulates in the chamber the water level goes down and the float, which is floating on top of the water, begins to lower. As it lowers the needle is retracted from its seat which allows the ambient water pressure to force the air out and refill the chamber to await more air. Mine is running on about 40-50 PSI system pressure and hasn't leaked a drop. My HVAC guy says good ones rarely have problems but this is in a closed system with ethylene glycol in the water. If you have really hard water and no softener you might have to take this thing down for maintenance perodically to remove hard water deposits.
I described it like a batch process but it is actually fully analog/proportional, ejecting even small quantities of air by opening the needle just a little.
I think this would work well for you if you can coalesce the little bubbles into larger bubbles. A sedimant filter isnt that expensive and helps keep grains of sand/dirt/whatever out of your lavatory valve seats or from making an ice maker, dishwasher, or clothes washer solenoid control valve leak. Even if the sediment filter did not coalesce air bubbles it is a good idea for the other good things that it does. It will prolong the life of any other water conditioning/treatment devices or filters like RO or activated charcoal or whatever.
There are lots of water quality web sites where you might find what you need. I can get you info on the one in my system if you want.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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BlueRidge
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: egon]
08/16/05 09:36 PM
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In reply to:
Maybe hold a lighted match near the faucet when the air starts coming out. It just may burn!!
Egon
Egon, you sure you're from Nova Scotia? Testing for flammable gas with a lit match sounds more like something a Newfie would do.
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GaryQWA
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: BlueRidge]
08/16/05 11:28 PM
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All water treatment and pump guysalong with many well drillers use the same lighted match test. The combustion is outside the bottle/faucet tip and presents no danger. Well unless fear causes panic and someone burns himself with the match. lol
This air in the water... faucet tip aerators add air which makes the water cloudy and clears form the bottom of the glass up within a few seconds. So if you want to know if the air is due to the faucet tip, remove it and see if it's still present, if so it's coming in with the water.
The causes of that is usually due to trapped air in the plumbing being absorbed into the water, increasing the dissolved oxygen content which them comes out of solution in the glass as the water is depressurized and aerated. Trapped air such as in a peak in pipe between two bellies in the pipe.
Us water treatment industry guys add air to pressurized water and use it as an oxidizer for the treatment of H2S, iron and manganese etc.. We vent off the excess to prevent air in the water complaints. All you need to get rid of air and/or methane is an in/out tank with a distributor tube and an air vent such as a Honeywell Baukman float controlled vent, as mentioned by someone above, on the in/out 'head'.
Pumps and plumbing can cause this problem and if it continues more than a week or two, I suggest it is something like that rather than trapped air. Water softeners and/or regenerated filters can cause it too.
Gary Slusser
Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates
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egon
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: BlueRidge]
08/17/05 04:30 AM
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Ahh -- I'm originally from Alberta -- took me years to wise up and move -- now a Newfie, he's be getting the Alberta lad with the matches to do the lightin ehh.
Not enough gas to do any harm. Of course if you go Down Medicine Hat way and drill a real deep water well then there may be problems.
Many times the gas will come from a coal seam.
Egon
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egon
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: Bird]
08/17/05 05:20 AM
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Interesting reading on water wells.
web page
web page
web page
Egon
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em14
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: egon]
08/17/05 03:25 PM
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Egon,
I had never heard of this phenomenal of breathing wells. This has been around for some time it seems and with serious consequences possible if finding one. I sure hope someone gets these things taken care of. Thanks for a very interesting read!
Leo
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CJDave
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: em14]
08/18/05 05:29 AM
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Wells are a never-ending source of amazement and endless anomalies. I have seen water wells that had very fast CURRENT where the water well casing just protruded into the roof of an underground chamber and the water was rushing by at high speed. We had to construct a special set of pump bowls to handle the current and reduce the entrained air from turbulence.  I have seen water wells where the casing head gas was trapped and then used to run the engine that powered the water pump......not a bad way to go when fuel costs are what they are now.
CJDave
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AncientHouse
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: CJDave]
08/19/05 10:28 AM
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Wow. Definitely a lot to investigate. I'm embarrassed to say that we have never opened up the well since we've been here. I guess because it seemed to be working and when it was tested about a year ago, the water was fine and we were busy renovating. The former owners put a large amount of rocks on top of the lid where the well is. The well is also right near the bottom of a large maple tree. We're still doing our investigating but the forum has been great and we'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks everyone.
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: AncientHouse]
08/21/05 09:00 AM
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Ancient, A lot of folks never test their wells but a good idea is to test your well annually. Things change, water quality included. Testing is cheap and simple and the peace of mind is a good thing.
If there is a degradation of your well water that can't be seen or tasted, how would you know? There are lots of things you don't want in your water that can't be detected with your eyes or nose. Periodic testing is cheap insurance.
Some common contaminates can take years to cause health problems at lower concentrations and without water quality testing you will never know there is a risk or a need to treat the water.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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CJDave
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: Pat]
08/22/05 03:21 AM
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Pat, how's this for a phrase: "The solution to pollution is dilution." and conversely: "A trace over time becomes a concentration." You can drink some pretty crappy water....if you don't drink it day after day after day, after..........well, ........you get the idea.
CJDave
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Pat
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Re: Where is the air coming from
[re: CJDave]
08/22/05 08:45 AM
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CJDave, Yes I do! Got it clear, crystal in fact.
Unfortunately too many folks, for whom ignorance is bliss, are way way too happy with their water supply.
Too many think if others are drinking it and not falling over, you can't see any problems, you can't taste or smell a problem, then there isn't any problem. If they or their children have a shorter lifespan by 5, 10, or 20 years it will not likely be traced to the water supply and if it were it would be 5, 10, or 20 years to late to do anything about it for them.
Not testing your water at least annually is a lot like playing Russian roulette or walking across the street without looking for traffic. You might get away with it but that doesn't make it a safe practice.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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