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stimmy60
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Reged: 08/01/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Southern In.
Retrieving plumbing from water well?
      08/01/05 08:47 PM

I have a problem. I have a deep well I want to put back in service. The people I bought this property from in cleaning up this place to make it for sale. They lifted the pump piping up approximately ten feet above the ground level and cut it off with a torch. I guess they figured this well wouldn't be used anymore. It was originally for a farrowing house which had long since been retired. I can see the piping down the well which is an 8" casing but I don't have any idea how to latch onto it and pull it out . Any ideas anybody? Any information is appreciated.
Thanks
Tim

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GaryQWA
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/01/05 10:29 PM

Are you sure you aren't looking at the top of a pitless adapter? Or should I say, how sure are you that they cut off 10' and put things back in the well?

If you're looking at a pitless adapter, there will be a threaded 1" usually, hole in the top. You screw a T handle into it and lift, pulling a dove tail apart and then you get the whole weight of the drop pipe, pump, cable, and water in the pipe. Some pipe is 21' sections of galvanized using threaded couplers, Some is PE tubing or sch 80 PVC in 20' sections, hopefully not cemented. Depending on the depth and weight, you may need a derrick truck or at least a pump pulling machine, and some way to hold the weight while you and 2-3 guys rest a bit. Unless it's PE and only up to say 200' deep.

If the tubing was cut of, then you need a tapered threaded thing to screw into the open end and hope it holds while you lift the stuff up out of the casing so you can grab and hold it with something.

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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Pat
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/01/05 10:35 PM

Stimmy, I few things come to mind and none of them is a big magnet! Are you saying the cut end is 10 ft below the top of the casing? Is it metal or PVC pipe that was cut? Metal or plastic casing, or what? Torch implies metal...

You can try something along the lines of an "easy out", i.e. something that will try to thread into the ID of the cut end and bind to it.

You could try to find some tongs with serated jaws. The harder you pull up on them the harder they clamp onto the pipe.

You can get a length of metal braid (often available in stainless steel) which can be used like a Chineese finger hand cuff thingy. The idea would be to lower it down over the pipe end by rope or chain and then reach down with a pole and apply pressure to the the braid to help it start grabbing the pipe so it prevents it from slipping before you get enough pressure on it to hold. As you pul up on it, it will costrict and grab the pipe firmly.

Look up cam cleat. A cam cleat on a length of pipe could be pushed onto the end of the pipe to be lifted and would grip stronger the more lifting force was applied. Cam cleats are seen on the ratchet type fence wire stretchers to hold wire.

If you could find a pipe clamp (like used in wood shops for glue ups) you could copy/ build an enlarged version to fit the pipe down in the hole. I have personally only seen pipe clamps in 1/2 amd 3/4 inch but you could make a larger one to retrieve the "lost" pipe.

I'm sure well driller/servicers do this a lot... ask one. Maybe some oil field folks could help as they have to retrieve stuff from a lot deeper after one of then says OOPS !@#$ &$#%^&#@$^%

You could make several oval shaped hoops that would fit over two pipes touching in parallel. One is the lost pipe and the other is the "tool" pipe. The hoops are placed over the end of the tool pipe and held in place with a little glue (emphasis on little or very lightly tack welded.)

You reach down into the casing with this arrangement and slip the left over space in the hoops over the end of the lost pipe. then a third pipe is sliped down the casing and rested atop the lost pipe. This third pipe needs tohave something attached to the end larger than the lost pipe. You now pull up on the tool pipe while pushing down on the lost pipe. This will cock the hoops at an angle and bind the tool pipe to the lost pipe. Remove the third pipe and then pul up on the tool to lift the lost pipe.

Tack weld the bare end of a welding rod (high fill contact rod) onto the side of the tool pipe. Lower the tool into the casing such that the welding rod touches the lost pipe over its full length. With the ground clamp attached to a third pipe, insert the third pipe into the casing so that it touches the lost pipe below the area where the welding rod is. connect the stinger (hot wire that goes to the electrode holder) to the tool pipe and turn the welder on a couple hundred amps. This should weld the pipes together enough to pull the lost pipe up. Be careful not to pull sideways on the tool pipe.

If this last method doesn't work it will at least have roughened up the lost pipe so some of the other methods above will work better.

I could go on and on but I am past my bedtime.

Good luck,



Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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egon
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: Pat]
      08/02/05 06:09 AM

Questions:

Any idea of how deep the well?
What size tubing?
Any idea of whats hanging on the bottom of the tubing?

With 8 in casing I'd assume the tubing is metal and around 3 in diameter. This would be heavy. You'd need a tripod/derrick, good chain hoist that will lock, a pipe clamp that fits over the casing to hold the tubing, Sledge hammers and pipe wrenches say 48'ths to undo the couplers. And last but not least a fishing tool. If the tubing is in longer lenths you may have a few problems and have to clamp and rehook the chain hoist several times for long tubing.

Seeing as you can see the top of the tubing a spear type or overshot type tool will probably be required. They would probably have to be of the cam or coil type as the tubing probably isn't held in place and will rotate. Getting a chain or cable loop/loops over the pipe may also work if you can guide them from the surface.

Water well drillers will have the proper tools. They purchase them from suppliers so you could too.

Check the internet on water/oilwell fishing tools. There are lots. This may give you some ideas if you wish to build one.

I'd advise contacting a well driller to pull the assembly, evaluate the well and size a pump for what you need.

Egon

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stimmy60
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Loc: Southern In.
Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: GaryQWA]
      08/03/05 08:15 PM

No Gary mine is not a pitless adapter it has 2 pipes 10 ft below ground level.
Tim

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stimmy60
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: egon]
      08/03/05 08:21 PM

Egon the well is 80 ft deep there are 2 pipes in well looks like 1" and 1 1/2".I there is believe there is a foot valve at bottom of well.
Tim


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stimmy60
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: Pat]
      08/03/05 08:27 PM

Pat it is steel pipe .Your idea of a steel braid sounds better than anything I've tried yet. Are you talking about the steel braided cable pullers wiremen use to pull electric cable?
Tim

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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/03/05 08:37 PM

Having spent twenty-something years in the pump business, I've been on my share of "fishing" trips down deep wells. By far your best bet is what we always called an OVERSHOT, just a cone on a pipe that we could let down and twist it around so it fell down and over the pipe that was lost, then it was made in such a way that when we pulled up, whatever we had in it for jaws would flop over and bite like mad. We made these tools out of junk-on-hand and you'd be surprised at how easy it is to hook onto pipe ends with something like that. I've hooked just about everything you can think of: turbine shafts, enclosing tube, column pipe of various diameters, bowl shafts, wood debris, bricks. You could probably pull what you have in there with a MORAN BUCKET; just a regular bailer with a trap door in the bottom. Of course to run a bailer, you need a rig. Actually, I would love to have my hands on some clutch and brake levers for a few hours just for old times sake.

CJDave

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stimmy60
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: CJDave]
      08/03/05 08:54 PM

CJDave This thing you call an overshot or acone. I can't picture this in my mind could you elaborate?
Tim

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egon
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/03/05 09:17 PM

Sounds like you have the pipes reqired for a jet pump.

At 10 feet where you can see it I'd try Pat's method of getting a cable over it and then pulling it. A chain hoist and some means of supporting the pipe would be handy.

Now if it it is a jet pump setup you may just have to lift it up so pipes can be attached to the exsiting pipe and hook up a surface pump.

Think I overreacted on the original post.

Egon

Edited by egon (08/03/05 09:23 PM)

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GaryQWA
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/03/05 09:46 PM

I have a have a couple pictures that might help. But with a two line jet pump, those two lines won't be that heavy. They can't be more than roughly 150' max because a jet can't work any deeper than that. A couple guys can get it out once you get a hold on them; that assumes PE tubing.

I hope I can manage attaching a file. I've failed once...

I can't manage the file attachment so... visualize a circle about 3" ID with a 1/16" thick bottom that is split across the circle with the split halves bent up 3/4". A 1/4" les than the pipe you want to lift so the split parts dig into the pipe. This circle is only 1" thick from top to bottom, a piece of 1/8" x 1" strap steel bent and welded into a circle, with a say 1/6" thick piece welded on the bottom split in half. The 1/8" is then welded to an upside down U on each side. The top of the upside down U is then welded to a piece of say 3/4" galvanized or black iron pipe with a T handle welded on the top of it a couple feet above the top of your casing. You push the circle down over the 1" tubing a foot or two and lift on the T handle pulling both the 1" and 1.25" tubing out of the well. I think you said the trubing was PE plastic, so two guys can do this fairly easy if you use pair a large pipe wrenches (or large visegrips) to clamp on one piece of the tubing so you can wedge them on the tubing and lay the wrenches on the casing to stop the tubing from going down the well when you want to rest. That is If you have to, at my age I would about every 70'. lol At least that was true for my last submersible I pulled alone two years ago; it was 140' deep and I may have stopped more than just twice but I know I didn't want to have to pull more when the pump came out! I think the water was about 40' down and the PE tubing was full of water due to the check valve in/on the pump wasn't leaking. It's harder pulling through air than water...

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

Edited by GaryQWA (08/03/05 10:08 PM)

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Pat
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: egon]
      08/04/05 06:45 AM

Egon, I think the best hope for "pulling the well" is to take your advice or buy the book on it by Martha Stewart.

I have since talked to folks who have worked in the oil fields on drilling rigs and thre are lots of "tools" built for this task.


I suggest trying to rent one from a water well drilling company or hiring them to pull it up.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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Pat
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/04/05 08:43 AM

Stimmy, Basically... yes. If you haven't ever "pulled" a well, you might want to consider getting help from someone who has. You could probably hire it done with the proviso that you help. I helped pull my well to replace a pump. I am glad I had experienced help and they are glad I had a snatch block and a winch on the front of my truck!

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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GaryQWA
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Re: corrections new [re: GaryQWA]
      08/04/05 10:48 AM

Forget my idea since I now see that it is steel pipe. You'l need a pump hoist (derrick) truck or some tripod etc. to lift it. You should know what you're doing or let the pros do it.

The tool I describe won't work for steel pipe, unless you use 1/8" for all of it and make at least 2-3 circles so you have more than only one 'bite' on the steel. The split pieces should be minimum 1/8" and the split between the bottom's two halves should be a very tight forced (pound it on with a hammer) fit for the OD of the 1" or 1.25" piece you want to grab hold of.

You could use an eye hook on the circle part and then chain rather than a pipe with a T handle. But a tee handle, 12" wide with an 8" casing, prevents the whole thing from getting away and going back down the well if you were to do this manually.

By the way, there are two pipe (1" and 1.25") pitless adapters.

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/05/05 04:23 AM

If the piping is so close to the surface that you can actually see what you are doing, just make a simple jaw tool that goes on the end of a length of pipe and which has a crossways hinge with limited movement. The jaw has a side opening and will slide over the pipe that is in the well. When you pull it will bind and bite the pipe and allow you to raise the pipe set to where you can get a clamp on it. This would be a piece of cake for any rig man; even a little domestic pump rig can easily do this. An OVERSHOT is a an upside-down funnel with a set of jaws located in the small end. The funnel guides itself over the pipe and the pipe enters the jaws. You pull up and the jaws grab.

CJDave

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stimmy60
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: CJDave]
      08/05/05 10:20 PM

Dave I got about 60 ft out with a piece of 1/4" x 3" x 5" flat stock that I drilled out to 1 3/8" hole on one end and a 1/2" hole on the other end. I put a clevis in the small hole and hooked it to a cable to my front end loader and snaked the big hole over the pipe. I was doing fine untill the pipe caught and I snapped it in two. Then everything went back to the bottom of the well. I estimate I still have about 20 ft. of pipe left. So tonight I made a home-made overshoot from the ideas from everybody on this thread. If I hadn't gotten excited and slowed down a little I would maybe have it all out by now. Maybe someday I'll learn to have more patience. Thanks everbody for all the good advice I've been given.

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Pat
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/05/05 11:13 PM

Patience? PATIENCE?? P A T I E N C E???? AND JUST HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE TO LEARN THAT????

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/08/05 05:52 PM

One of the things that I used to do with my rig; when dealing with "barely hanging on" fished out pieces of pipe or what have you; was "come out of the hole" at a very low idle. I had a 300 CID Continental six-banger on the drawworks and a lot of mechanical stuff rotating to give me the WR-Square that I needed, so I could really get down to a low RPM. By coming out at idle, I could react quickly if something hung up. The way I built my rig, I had the throttle situated so I could nudge it upward with my knee to add throttle while still firmly holding the clutch and brake levers with my hands. I'm not bragging, but I have never seen a factoreee built rig that was as operator friendly as mine was and it was entirely our own design. We bought an army surplus Hansen crane and parked it outside the shop. As the rig grew the crane disappeared. We used linkage, levers, brackets, you name it; off that crane to build our rig; and of course the engine and double-drum drawworks. Hansen used a neat energizing clutch arrangement with booster bands that gave superb control of the two lines. What you MAY have down the hole is a broken jet body so the pipes could be independent. Your overshot should be able to grab one pipe at a time pretty easily.

CJDave

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stimmy60
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: CJDave]
      08/09/05 06:09 AM

I finally got the rest of the piping out last night at 10:30pm. I am beat. I have a new found respect for people that do this for a living.There is an art to it and they have to have loads of patience. I hope going back is easier. Thanks for all the help everybody.I really appreciate it.

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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/09/05 06:55 AM

Nice going S-60..!!! As with most "fishing" jobs, it's LUCK, and PATIENCE that gets the stuff out of the hole.

CJDave

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egon
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/09/05 01:19 PM

Good show.

Now lets get you into a situation where you have to " Snub out ":

Egon

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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: egon]
      08/10/05 02:26 AM

Hmmmmm......"snub out"....????? Is that some kind of oil field term?

CJDave

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egon
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: CJDave]
      08/10/05 05:07 AM

Yes it is. When you can't circulate and have to pull pressurized tubing. Messy job.

Egon

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GaryQWA
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/10/05 10:57 AM

Good job, now what and how much of it did you get out?

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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stimmy60
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: GaryQWA]
      08/10/05 05:05 PM

Gary
It ended up being pvc pipe two pieces 1 1/4" & 1 1/2" both pieces were 142 ft long. Whe I put the new submersible pump back in how far should it be from the bottom of the well? Also what is a decent brand to buy?
Thanks Tim

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egon
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/10/05 08:15 PM

Seems this well has gone from 80 feet and metal pipe to 140 feet and plastic pipe. !!!!

Sure it needs a pump??

Egon

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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/10/05 08:39 PM

Leave that sub high enough off the bottom that there is no chance that the motor might be in the mud as it could overheat. I haven't bought a sub in years, but my favorite brand was always RED JACKET.

CJDave

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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: egon]
      08/10/05 08:43 PM

I've always wanted to be on a workover rig and do that. I especially want to pull triples when the driller is mad that he lost circulation and wants to get that stem out of the hole......yes, I've always wanted to do that!

CJDave

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egon
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: CJDave]
      08/11/05 04:45 AM

No you don't CJ.

In reply to:

under control in southern Alta




BROOKS, Alta. (CP) - An oil well that was the scene of a deadly blast was brought under control Wednesday, allowing residents from about a dozen evacuated houses to return home.

"The fire has been extinguished and the flow from the well has been stopped, so essentially the situation is over," said Darin Barter of Alberta's Energy and Utilities Board. Four men were working on the well when it exploded Tuesday afternoon.

Warren Fick, 23, of Lloydminster, Alta., was airlifted to hospital but died of his injuries.

Two other workers were treated and released, and one man was still in hospital Wednesday in stable condition. All the men worked for Precision Drilling, a subcontractor to Celtic Exploration Ltd., which owns the well.

Celtic president David Wilson said losses due to the halt in production were not significant and the company's expenses in bringing the well under control are covered by insurance.

"The worst part of this is there was a fatality," he said by telephone from company headquarters in Calgary.

"Our thoughts are out to the family there, and that's the most important thing out of this tragedy, is there was a lost life."

Wilson and Barter both stressed the evacuations, which included about 100 people at Tillebrook Provincial Park, were a precaution and that the public health risk was minimal.

"It was an oil well and not a sour gas well," said Barter. "There was no real risk from sour gas at all because it was such low content - less than one-half of one per cent sour gas content."

Wilson pointed out the company's emergency response plan only requires it to evacuate within a 40-metre radius, but the company decided to expand that to 1.5 kilometres.

"We chose to err on the safe side," he said. "We made the evacuation area quite a bit larger on the first night just because this happened going into the evening. Until we had full assessment of what we had there, we just wanted to make sure public safety was not an issue."

However, the distinctions between the two types of wells was not made by RCMP, who said there were worries about public safety.

"The real concern is . . . when they cap the thing, they put the fire out and when the fire is out, the gas still emits," Cpl. Gary Zielke told the Medicine Hat News.

He said because the poisonous gas is heavier than air, anyone in the vicinity would be in danger if the fire went out and the well was not under control.

Barter said Zielke was wrong in his statements, adding a lot of people in the community did not appear to understand it was not a sour gas well.

"We're going to follow up with them," he said of the RCMP. "There's a role for us to help different organizations understand this."

The EUB will investigate to determine the cause of the blast as well as how the emergency management response was handled.

Some residents had complained Tuesday of poor communication. One man said he rushed home after work to find his wife and children outside, unaware their neighbours had been evacuated.

Occupational Health and Safety was on site and has launched an investigation into the blast.

"Our role is to find out what happened and prevent it from happening again," said spokesman Chris Chodan.




This happened just a few days ago.

Egon

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GaryQWA
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/11/05 09:10 AM

IMO, where you put the pump depends on what you are going to use the water for, actually that's how much water you'll be using at a time and what type of well it is; fully cased and screened or rock bore. Since I don't think you can find out which type, then size the pump for where you want it in the well and the total dynamic head of the system. Where's the static water level? How high to the highest fixture (sprinkler head)? Any idea of the recovery rate? Any plan on pump testing the well?

When you say PVC, I see sections put together with couplers... Or was it rolled PE tubing; one piece? I suggest using a 200' roll of 160 psi rated PE tubing for the new pump.

Your cable gauge depends on total distance from source to pump, and the voltage and hp of the motor.

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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stimmy60
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: GaryQWA]
      08/12/05 06:06 PM

Gary
The water will be used mainly for washing equipment and etc. I pulled another well pump today my inlaws said I could have as long as I pulled it. It is a Franklin 3/4 hp submersible. I hooked 240vac to the starter box when I got home. I put the pump in barrel of water and started it seems to be ok. They said it had not been used for approximately 1 1/2 yrs. I will meggar the motor leads and field leads before I install. The water level is roughly 120 ft. from bottom. I rough guess the head on the pump is 100 ft. of water. The highest fixture won't be over 5 ft. from ground level. All my piping was pvc. I had thought it was metal at first. Looks can be deceiving when looking down the well hole. The cable looks like #10 or #12. This pump I pulled today was deeper than the first pump so I figured it would be ok for my application. Hope I answered all your questions.
Thanks
Tim

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CJDave
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Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/14/05 04:29 PM

Dear ST-60, One of the things that submersible pumps DO NOT LIKE is pumping open discharge......that is to say pumping against relatively low total head. The depth to water will be pretty much a constant, so that's good, but be careful to not pump into a zero pressure situation at the surface....always have a throttling valve or a restrictor fitting to "choke" the flow and build some discharge head. What happens is that when you pump well off the curve like that with a pump that is normally designed to pump 20-40 pounds at the surface, the little turbine bowls go into UPTHRUST and it will grind the impellers against the inside of the bowls and wear the top surfaces off. Just a precautionary note. You can experiment with different size restrictors by setting a gauge on the pump side of the restrictor so you know what kind of pressure you are building. Even fifteen pounds would be fine.

CJDave

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stimmy60
New Member

Reged: 08/01/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Southern In.
Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: CJDave]
      08/29/05 11:12 AM

Thanks to all finally got my well pump installed all is looking good now pump puts out 30psi at surface with faucet fully open. This works for me,also seem to have an adequate recovery rate for my needs. Thanks again for all the valuable advice from this board.
Tim

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CJDave
Veteran Member

Reged: 10/21/02
Posts: 860
Loc: Southeast Iowa
Re: Retrieving plumbing from water well? new [re: stimmy60]
      08/30/05 06:44 AM

30 PSI at full flow.....that's a happy submersible pump you have down there ST-60.

CJDave

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