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SLOBuds
Silver Member

Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 130
2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline
      06/27/05 11:10 PM

I will end up with 2 water tanks on 2 opposite sides of my 10 acre farm. I will also end up with booster pumps on opposite sides. Each booser pump is fed from its own tank.

Is anything bad going to happen with my system if I have both booster pumps supplying all of the pressurized water lines at the same time? To me it sounds like I am better off doing it this way - basically ending up with a fully redundant system.

If you don't think it's a good idea, I am able to dedicate separate lines for each pump.

Thanks
Martin

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egon
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      06/28/05 05:13 AM

How will set up the pressure switches so both pumps run at the same time.

The least variance on low pressure start and only one pump will ever run.

Egon

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SLOBuds
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Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 130
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: egon]
      06/28/05 08:34 AM

The pumps are 1500 feet from each other. And the mainline feeds off those pumps run another 800 feet in the other direction from one of the pumps.

Do you think that an open spigot 2000 feet away from a booster pump will activate that one instead of the one closer to it - assuming that the 'turn-on pressure level' are set close to each other?

So I will have both of the pumps set to activate at 45 psi, and turn off at 60 psi. A spigot is open. That spigot is 400 feet away from one pump and 1900 feet away from the other pump. My guess would be that the pump closest to that spigot will go off first.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe it is just better to have one booster pump for separate parts of the pressurized water delivery system.

Thanks.

Martin

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jimbrown
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Reged: 08/06/04
Posts: 385
Loc: Tombstone, AZ
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      06/28/05 09:01 AM

It should work just fine. you may find that one will tend to come on before the other. The water sytem I was on in Olympia had 6 boost pumps all in parallel. Sometimes all six ran and somtimes one or none ran. They all drew from a single 20,000 gal tank and each fed a seperate pressure tank. Most municipal sytems have mulitple boost pumps. Actually I think you will find you have more consistant pressure with that system thn trying to put one big one at one end or the other.

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GaryQWA
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Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      06/28/05 10:59 AM

This sounds like a it's filled with potential problems. To pump water 800 to 2000' and have the volume and pressure you want is a sizeable task. To get two pumps on two different sources of water to work together should be a bit difficult IF you don't want most of the water coming more from one source than the other. Just the pressure loss in all that distance and the type of material you choose for the lines is substantial. I suggest 1000' rolls of 200 psi rated PE (polyethylene) tubing. Due to the length, they probably will be special order from most pump supply houses but they are available and it is the best choice.

The pressure you mention is way low if the switches are at the pumps. If you want 50 psi at the tap, the pressure at the pump is going to be a lot higher due to friction loss in the pipe to the fixture. With two pumps, you need to prevent them from working against each other when both are running. You'd need a check valve in each line to do that. Each check valve will probably have a 5 psi cracking pressure. That needs to be calculated into the total 'head' of the system, or said another way, the pressure loss from the pumps to the higest elevation of the fixtures. If this distance rises from the pumps, that takes more pressure at the pumps etc.. If if the topography is flat or downhill, there is nothing but the friction loss of the tubing, but uphill you lose x psi pre foot of elevation.

For more info and maybe some ideas, check this out"
http://www.jessstryker.com/pump.htm

Gary Slusser


Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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CJDave
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Reged: 10/21/02
Posts: 860
Loc: Southeast Iowa
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      06/28/05 12:14 PM

Actually, SLO, the only problem you have is this: When the system pressure drops as water is used, the pump closest to the usage will feel the drop in pressure and respond. Sometimes in systems with long lengths of small diameter pipe, the pump builds so much pressure when it starts that it can actually kick off the pressure switch and then the pressure drops and the switch kicks the pump back on and then the pump pressure kicks the switch back off, and then.......well, you get the idea. That scenario can go on and on. What we have done is install a smaller bladder tank with a pressure switch connected to it alongside the normal tank. The bladder tank and the pressure switch are fed through a very small orifice so that the changes in pressure in the tank and therefore in the sensing area of the switch are dampened so that it gives the water in that long pipeline time to get moving, thereby reducing the effect of that surge that occurs from pump start-up. You'll need a similar setup for each pump. Set the pressure switches so that one pump kicks on and as the pressure continues to drop, the second pump kicks on. Those set points will have to be dinked with a little to compensate for the line losses, but it is easy to do that.

CJDave

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SLOBuds
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      06/28/05 09:31 PM

Sounds like a pretty good solution.

The main lines off these booster pumps is 2", to account for the line lengths.

Thanks.

Martin

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GaryQWA
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Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      06/28/05 11:45 PM

Actually SLO, as you open any tap the whole system is going to see the pressure fall. And buried line isn't going to expand or contract based on that perssure drop. At least it doesn't in wells with 600' of PE tubing drop pipe and a couple hp pump on the far end with a check valve in it. And that line can expand because it's hung in air and then water. I've worked on a fair number of wells, and some of them are 400-500' deep and 200-300' from the house/building and they haven't had any surge on/off problems. For general disscussion purposes, water in a pipe acts like a steel rod, push with a pump and it basically all moves as one piece. There can't be more pressure in one place along the line than another. Now an improper differential setting in the switch and/or no check valves in the lines from each pump would allow that due to the pumps having to work against each other at start up. Hence dinking with the switches, but then IMO, that should be to get both pumps started at the same time.

You might want to look into Cycle Stop Valves on each pump, that would be a better solution.
www.cyclestopvalves.com

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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CJDave
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: GaryQWA]
      06/29/05 05:25 AM

Uniform pressure thoroughout ANY piping system is only possible if the velocity is ZERO. Under any other flow conditions, there will be variations in pressure; between user and first storage tank; between first storage tank and second storage tank; etc., etc. It's just like one of those "Balancing Reservoirs" excercises from Venard's: "Fluid Mechanics and Hydraulics"

CJDave

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SLOBuds
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Posts: 130
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      06/29/05 08:07 AM

I'm not so sure about this 'constant pressure all through the system'.

When I open a spigot that is 10 feet away from my booster pump, the pump activates almost immediately. When I turn on a spigot that is 400 feet away from my booster pump, it turns on later.

Well, this is all theoretical although pretty interesting. As I mentioned earlier, I do have both of the systems completely isolated by valves. So I will be able to report on performance after the system is fully connected.

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GaryQWA
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Posts: 117
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      06/29/05 12:11 PM

In reply to:

Uniform pressure thoroughout ANY piping system is only possible if the velocity is ZERO. Under any other flow conditions, there will be variations in pressure; between user and first storage tank; between first storage tank and second storage tank; etc., etc. It's just like one of those "Balancing Reservoirs" excercises from Venard's: "Fluid Mechanics and Hydraulics"




You'll have to forgive me, I'm not an engineer, I'm just an old guy that works on well water systems with a fair troubleshooting and mechanical hands on ability.

Actually, the velocity IS ZERO before he opens a tap, and the switch and guage at the pumps will show/sense the pressure drop as the water exits the tap, unless there are check valves on the line from each pump to the tee tying the two tanks system together. Then the pump with the shortest distance should see it first.

Yes he will have a dynamic pressure loss due to the friction loss in the line and any fittings and dynamic pressure is different and less than static pressure but again, the switch and guage on/at each pump will see EITHER type pressure decrease with the tap opened. I'm sure you will agree with that or we'd be talking about how to get the pumps to run when needed...

Also, I see him using a submersible pump in the tanks OR a jet or centrifical pump outside the tanks with flooded suction. For general discussion purposes (again), the pumps are going to pressurize the system, not the water in the tanks. The switch and guage will be outside the tank and on the service side of the system, not on the tank side.

Additionally, his system is far from being "balanced" because of hundreds of feet of 2" pipe! And I can see many service line joints at least every 20' if the system is using anything other than PE tubing. AND he says there are various valves tying the two tank system together.

Also recall that as yet we don't know of any elevation variance between the tanks. Nor do we know if there are any check valves in the system; which certainly cause an imbalanced system between these two tanks. So IMO a "balanced" system is out and there is no possible way to balance it as designed and supposedly already installed plumbing.

BTW, because Cycle Stop Valves provide constant pressure (controlled at the pump outlet), I'm fairly sure that Cycle Stop Valves would tend to balance flow and user end pressure. And that goes to the original subject/question "2 Booster Pumps, Same mainline". One pump, the one with the longest line to the mainline, will have to be larger in GPM and possibly hp, than the other UNLESS or UNTIL we plug in a negative elevation to the tee to the mainline. Is that right or wrong?

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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CJDave
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Loc: Southeast Iowa
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: GaryQWA]
      06/29/05 06:45 PM

SLO's system is NO DIFFERENT than a city water system with multiple wells and multiple tanks, except that they would usually have a variable speed drive on at least a percentage of the pumps. If SLO is pumping out of atmospheric storage and trying to go straight hydraulic with the system, it won't work. SLO will need some hydropneumatic storage somewhere in the system, and the more the better. I don't think anyone said anything about SLO's system being "balanced". I referred to the "Balancing Reserviors" excercise because it embodies the same kinds of engineering considerations that SLO's system has; various pipe lenghts; some possible elevation differences; and mulitple sources. I cannot see where he would need anything except some decent-sized pressure tanks on the discharge side of the pumps; good intake check valves for the pumps; and MAYBE a pressure switch dampener to reduce the effect of "pump-on" pressure spikes on the cut-off settings of the switch. Oh, and one more thing.....some way to restore the air charge in those hydropneumatic tanks........unless they are bladder tanks.

CJDave

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SLOBuds
Silver Member

Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 130
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      06/29/05 07:36 PM

Both of you guys are way beyond me.

But just to fill out the system a bit, for info, there are indeed 2 pressure tanks on the system as well. I guess I should have mentioned that. The tanks are positioned with each of the pumps.

Yes - varying pipe lengths. Yes - slight elevation change.

I don't know if there is or will be a pressure switch dampener.

The prospect of having a redundant system makes me happier as I think more of it. A problem with of them will leave me with water as I wait for repairs.

Martin

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Pat
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Reged: 09/15/02
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Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      06/29/05 10:45 PM

Don't everyone get mad at me at the same time but this is quite a collection of answers/responses varying from potentially well intentioned but sadly misinformed to preyy good.

Here is my contribution to the confusion:

It doesn't matter which pump comes on first or that the pressure switches are perfectly synchronized. If the first pump to come on doesn't produce enough water to satisfy the demand the pressure will drop and the other pump will come on and help.

Check valves in the output of each pump can help stabilize the system against oscillations. You do need to give consideraton to hoiw you distribute, size, and locate pressure tanks. To avoid a long winded and probably confusing lecture on that topic, instead I'll recommend that you contact a reputable manufacturer of well equipment and get a recommendation. Telephone numbers for well pump manufacturers customer care lines are often on the box or in the manual of a well pump. Go to a farm store and copy the number off a new pump. I got quite an education a few years ago that way. There are lots of wrong ways to plumb multiple pressure tanks.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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CJDave
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Pat]
      06/30/05 06:12 AM

Pat, it seems like SLO has everything that he needs if there is a hydro-pneumatic tank at each pump. He has, in fact, duplicated a typical multi-source water system just like the cities have, but smaller. The pressure switch arrangement of which you speak is the "lead-Lag" type of arrangement where the lead pump pounces on the demand and if that doesn't do it, .......that is to say pressures continue to fall.....the lag pump comes in. When demand goes away, the the lead pump shuts off first and the lag pump shuts off as pressure continues to build back up. After having spent thirty years in the pump business, I can only tell you that it might be tough to get real knowlege about applications in a farm store; it's tough enough to find dealers who know what they are doing. Years ago,; before I owned my own dealership; I was chief of applications for a major pump manufacturer and spent my days trying to keep our dealers from doing the wrong thing. One small note, however,......in atmospheric booster pump applications, if you have the check valve on the discharge side, there is a chance that the pump may not be able to make the head needed to push it open if the volute has an air pocket in it. For that reason an intake-side check is actually a better way to go; not absolutely essential, just a safer way to do it.

CJDave

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egon
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Pat]
      06/30/05 06:51 AM

Pat:

Some of us just call it water hammer. With no check valves think one tank just may overflow. There are damper systems that can be placed in line and other ways of reducing the hammer.

No one seems to have considered the output versus demand, line size, bends etc. Could be just a little factor to consider in design.

The pressure guages we usally see on home water systems are not too sophisticated. A good instrument teck could install a pretty nice set of controllers/ gauges that have quite a few more features.

With two pumps comming on line at different times, which they will with just Hi/Low switches, could end up with a continuously cycling system. Interesting?

Egon

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GaryQWA
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Posts: 117
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      06/30/05 09:53 AM

Martin, swerving off in another direction... there's quite a bit of info we don't have.

Like how you fill these tanks. Where the pressure tank/s are located in relation to the tanks. Where the pressure switch/es will be located. The primary use of this water. The volume of water to be used in peak demand gpm. The pressure required where the water is to be used. The elevation of the highest water use measured from each pump. The power source for the pump/s and the distance to the pump/s. The guage of any power cable already run. The size and type of pump/s you want to use (I presume that's why you posted here). The type of material used for the 2" water lines and the length of individual sections, or between coupler fittings; I.E. 21'. The type of stop valves used. Will there be a problem with the use of water from one tank more than the other? Are there check valves anywhere and if so where?

You need all that info to be able to design a system that will work and/or to select the size and type of pump/s.

If this were my water system, I would like one source that is proven capable to provide my needs, and I'd want it close to where I use the water. I would want to use a submersible pump. I would control that pump from where I use the water; that's where the pressure tank, guage and switch would be unless I could use a Cycle Stop Valve then the tank and switch would be at the water source. That would allow me to use a very small pressure tank as opposed to a very large one to keep my pump motor properly cooled between start ups; off for at least 60 seconds for up to 1 hp and 120 seconds for 1.5 to 2 hp. I would use float switches in any atmospheric water storage tank to prevent the submersible (or other type) pump from being able to run dry, and/or to control another pump in a well used to refill the tank. If the refill water was from a truck delivery, I'd want some means to tell me when I needed to refill it that prevented me to have to physically go look in the tank. If I had two storage tanks with a pump at each, I'd have a check valve on the outlet of each pump.

That type system is used anywhere around North America where needed and (some) well drillers and pump guys do it daily.

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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CJDave
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: egon]
      06/30/05 06:52 PM

SLO has a very routine and common application here, and I doubt of any of the multiple difficulties mentioned will actually plague the system; except possibly the actual setting of the pressure switches; but that is a one-time thing. I could not even count the number of these kinds of systems I have seen and installed for everything from a summer camp to a subdivision. Atmospheric-storage-with-booster-to-mainline......that's pretty routine, whether it has one source or ten sources. He should be fine with it. IF IT WAS UP TO ME..... I would set it up with the two remote sources pumping into the common mainline feeding an atmospheric storage tank at the point of demand("the ranch"), and radio control the on-off using a float switch in the atmospheric tank. That way your transportation line is at low pressure and runs for long periods to refill the reservoir with both pumps on the line at the same time. There would be no discharge-side tanks at the junctions of the source pumps and the mainline, just check valves for preventing backflow in the event of a failure of one pump. The benefit of this method is the greater instantaneous flow available at the point of demand since it would be taken from the reservior(tank) that is kept full by the two remote source pumps. It's just a little better way to go and leaves less machinery in the far flung areas to look after and maintain. So to recap.......two source pumps pumping into the low pressure main......main fills big atmospheric storage tank at "the ranch".....float switch signals source pumps to start and stop.......booster pump pulls out of big atmospheric storage to pressurize "the ranch".

CJDave

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Pat
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      07/05/05 09:27 PM

Dave, OH NO NOT REAL EXPERIENCE!!!! Lets just conjecture about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin and not ask any angelic dance instructors! I agree completely with your analysis and bow to your superior experience as regards the location of the check valve.

I have telephone access to a pump guru at Federal Corp in Oklahoma City. That is where I buy my pumps. Latest application is a pump to recirc potable DHW through a flat plate heat exchanger and a 50 gal electric DHW tank with no electrical connection to the heating elements. I will connect the tank's thermostat (make on temp fall) to energize the pump. The other side of the exchanger is circulating hot water through a ground sourced heat pump and a 30 gal DHW tank with glycol solution. Trying to preheat my DHW for about 1/3 the cost of a standard DHW tank.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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CJDave
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Pat]
      07/06/05 05:27 PM

It's complicated but I'm getting it....I'm on it. The DHW tank is for storage and for the temp sensing function. The GSHP shaves the first 30-40 degrees off the water. Did you see that HW heater that was noted in that other thread? The one about one HW heater or two? I was kind of confused about how that setup would work in cold weather if it is inside an equipment room?

CJDave

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Pat
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      07/07/05 08:18 PM

Dave, In case I sort of obscured the information, here let me totally louse it up...

NO really, This will help... There are three hot water heaters; one propane at 40 gal and two electric with one being 30 gal and the other is 50 gal. Neither electric is connected to electric power.

The 30 gal tank's thermostat is used to ask the GSHP for hot water and as the system is a heating priority system it will briefly and temporarily interrupt air conditioning (cooling) to satisfy the 30 gal tank. This is about 115 to 120 degree water in the 30 gal tank. This is what is used for hydronic heat.

The 50 gal electric DHW tank has its contents circulated through a flat plate heat exchanger. The "OTHER" side of the heat exchanger is in the loop between the GSHP and the 30 gal tank.

Their are two pumps pumping water through the 30 gal tank. One circuit is fron the GSHP through the heat exchanger, through the 30 gal tank and back to the GSHP. The other circuit is the 30 gal tank, an external pump, and the manifolds for the hydronics, then back to the 30 gal tank.

This is like the traditional joint checking account where one party has the task of putting $ into thte account and the other takes it out with no need for communications between the two parties as long as the capacity to put it in is not exceeded on average by the taking out.

Yet another pump circulates water through the heat exchanger and the 50 gal tank. The thermostat on the 50 gal tank controls this pump. When the 50 gal tank wants heat it starts the pump and "steals" heat from the hydronic storage tank (30 gal tank.) The input to the 50 gal DHW tank is cold water. The output of the 50 gal tank goes to the input of the 40 gal propane fired tank. The 50 gal tank "preheats" the water for the propane fired tank. The 40 gal propane tank should be able to keep up wilth demand since it only has to raise the water from about 115F up top about 140F (at most.)

Deep earth temp here is about 62.5F so water in shallower pipes is sometimes warmer and sometimes colder but probably averages about 62.5. So on average the 50 gal tank provides about 52.5F increase and the propane unit provides about 25F rise. (this assumes 115F in the 30 and 40 gal tanks. If I get 120 then the preheat is 57.5F and the propane unit only has to make 20F rise. I should get pretty fast recovery times.

Some of this is speculative as I have received but not installed the pump for the 50 gal tank... yet.

Cold weather will not make a change in the job of the propane fired unit as it will still get 115-120F feed water and it is located inside a conditioned space.. The equipment room is in the basement along the most burried wall. The basement wall is cast concrete 12 inches thick with R-11 rigid foam on the outside. The floor has R-11 rigid foam under it as well and 16 inches of washed gravel under the foam before hitting dirt (French drains preclude water contact wilth the slab.) There shouldn't be much seasonal difference in operation.

Heat pumps can run about 300 to 400% efficiency as compared to an electric DHW tank which is about 100% efficient. How do you get over 100% efficiency??? Electric water heaters "burn" electricity at efficiency of 100% directly converting electric energy into heat. Heat pumps don't "burn" electricity to make heat. They consume electricity to pump pre-existing heat from one location to another.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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CJDave
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Pat]
      07/08/05 04:38 AM

It ALL comes clear to me now. If there is anything that I understand from years and years behind the view finder of an Infrared Imaging Camera, it is heat transfer. I love dinking around with stuff like this. In CA the big thing was "thermal storage" where you used the cool air on those summer nights and cheaper "off peak" electricity to cool the refrigeration condensers and drop the temp on a zillion gallons of Eutectic fluid down to nega-nega land, and then run all day with only circulating pumps and coil fans. We called those setups "ice packs".

CJDave

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SLOBuds
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      07/09/05 12:26 AM Attachment

Here ya go, just for funs.

I don't know about the check valve. Don't notice one on the current booster pump (fed by the 2500 gallon tank). I'll check.

Just for funs.

Martin

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CJDave
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      07/09/05 12:30 AM

Sometimes it's hard to see them in the midst of all the fittings and pump castings. I'll be there somewhere.

CJDave

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Pat
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      07/09/05 07:55 AM

Dave, We had a "load shifting" (day to night) system out in the desert on Mt. Tiefort between Death Valley and Barstow at Ft. Irwin the Army's National Training Center where desert warfare tank combat was practiced (put to use in Iraq.)

Up on top of the mountain we installed a computer center and had lots of heat load. The AC equip ran full bore all through the cool desert night freezing a huge block of ice that provided the capacity to make it through the hot desert day. Pipes with antifreeze solution in them carried chilled water from the ice bank into the points of use. This allowed for the use of much smaller cooling units to "bank" cold for the next day than would have been required to hold the load with no "ice bank."

Incidently, there were lots of thermal imagers in use on and around the "playing field" at the fort too but they were in gun sights and surveillance systems.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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egon
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Pat]
      07/09/05 08:31 AM

Ah heck Pat , that's old tecknology. Up in the frozen north we let winter nature covert liquid water into a [ forget the proper name ] solid. This in turn gets stored in sawdust insulated sheds to keep the summer milk cool.

One of our Railroads even gave me the priveledge of going into these sheds and recording the available amount of ice!

Out on the way to the farm there is an old barn? that has one edge sitting over the water of a small lake. One day looking through books at the library discovered this used to be a building for storing ice cut at the lake.

Egon

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Pat
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Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: egon]
      07/09/05 09:01 AM

Egon, When my father-in-law was a lad in Iowa living next to the Mississippi river he helped saw large chunks of ice to store in the ice house for summer use.

Ice harvesting isn't the sole property of denizens of the frozen northlands above the border, it happens in parts of the lower 48 too.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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SLOBuds
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Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 130
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Pat]
      07/09/05 09:31 AM

Here is the Ice House in the town where my father grew up.

This is along the Cedar River, Pat, a tributary of the Mississippi. At the town of Cedar falls.

Martin

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Bird
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 1694
Loc: Corinth, TX, USA
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: egon]
      07/09/05 12:17 PM

Egon, do they still cut the blocks of ice from lakes and rivers in the winter to store for the summer? Naturally, in my part of the country, I only read about such things until 1972 when we drove to Alaska. An aunt and uncle made the trip with us and their pickup camper had an ice box instead of a refrigerator. And once on the trip back, we stopped for gas pretty much in the wilderness on the Alaska highway in Canada and my uncle asked about ice and the guy there told him to watch for a little dirt trail off the left side of the road about a mile farther on. We found it and took that trail just out of sight of the road back in the woods and found a little wooden building 10 or 12 feet square with ice and sawdust inside. There was no one around, but there were ice picks outside, along with what we used to call "cotton scales" (balance scales), and a sign on the building to find a block of the size you wanted, or cut one, weigh it, and charge yourself 7 cents a pound and put the money in the little box by the door. So we did just that. I have no idea who it belonged to since there were no other buildings or people anywhere in the vicinity that we could see.

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GaryQWA
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Reged: 06/04/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Wherever I park the motorhome
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      07/09/05 12:21 PM

Is that really a mile! of 1.5" sch 40 PVC from the well to the 2500 gal tank? Anyone calculate the pressure loss in that line; or any of these lines?

The 500' from the 5000 gal tank to the pump... is it down hill to the pump or at least flat?

What type pumps are used; jet or centrifical? What hp? What pressure are they going to have to be run at with all the pressure loss in 1.5" and 2" sch 40 jointed every 20'?

Gary Slusser

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

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SLOBuds
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Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 130
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: GaryQWA]
      07/09/05 01:17 PM

Probably more like 1/2 - 3/4 mile.

My well guy is the one who has taken care of this parcel since after Moses. The setup was built way before Moses.

My well guy doesn't jump for joy with the setup either, but both of us admit that I get about 12 gpm at the 2500 gal tank inlet. So we count our blessings.

The alternative of messing with old PVC laid along old country roads isn't pleasing. That line goes under a wash and under a small junkyard. With mean dogs guarding over it. Then we would have to deal with angry neighbors who never forgave you for that time in 2002 when you accidentally let their dog out.

Etc.

That well extension line up to the new 5000 gal tank goes down hill and then up hill, with no more than a 20-50' net gain in elevation. My wife just called to tell me that water is making it over to the new tank. Probably less than 12 gpm, right?

I don't know what the pressure loss is anywhere on my farm. We don't have much demand for personal usage - irrigation is another matter.

There are 2 tenants and ourselves out there from time to time. So maybe 6 people at the most. If all of the sprinklers are on and everyone is taking a bath in their 60 gallon soaking tubs, I notice a drop in pressure. Seriously, it is a small system and we will notice pressure changes as folks do things with outside hoses etc.

My wife is testing out the long pressurized line - now only on the one old booster pump. (That one which is fed by the 2500 gallon tank.) It is indeed feeding some pretty long lines now. So I'm anxious to hear about what's going on there.

Using water that comes from the ground has a bit of miracle about it.

Martin

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egon
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Reged: 09/12/02
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Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Bird]
      07/09/05 04:08 PM

To my knowledge there are no more places cutting ice for storage.

My railroad experience was in the mid 60's and used on the passenger train dining cars. The cabooses still had coal fired stoves in them then.

Egon

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Bird
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Reged: 09/12/02
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Loc: Corinth, TX, USA
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: egon]
      07/09/05 05:58 PM

In reply to:

My railroad experience was in the mid 60's and used on the passenger train dining cars. The cabooses still had coal fired stoves in them then.




I guess the railroads were going downhill then up there, as they were here. Until March '64 when I joined the police department, I was working registered mail at the post office and used to take it out to the RPO car (railroad post office) on all the passenger trains going through Dallas. A lot of the really valuable mail had to be transferred from one individual to another, and signed for each time. Although we usually never knew exactly what was in a sack or package, there were codes for different value amounts. I remember once taking new, freshly printed cash off a train once that was going to the Federal Reserve Bank; don't know the exact amount, but the codes indicated a minimum of $8 million. But by '64, the passenger cars were getting in bad shape and carried very few passengers.

Of course my grandfather hauled the mail between the post office and the train station in Ardmore, OK, from 1943 until trains no longer carried mail, so when I was a kid I used to ride with him when the trains were still steam engines.

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Pat
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Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      07/09/05 09:21 PM

Ah yes, note the approximation to a spherical shape (nearly a hemisphere) a cylinder capped with a domed roof. This maximizes the ice storage capacity volume while minimizing the surface area of the structure's shell which reduces the penetration of heat (reduces the cost of the structure also for a given enclosed volume.)

It was a good deed indeed that this fine example of the way things were was retained.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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CJDave
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Reged: 10/21/02
Posts: 860
Loc: Southeast Iowa
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: Pat]
      07/10/05 07:16 AM

Don't forget about the hollow walls, Pat, yet another heat-transfer preventer. What an interesting side note that was! We'll have to go see it in person someday.

CJDave

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CJDave
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Reged: 10/21/02
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Loc: Southeast Iowa
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: SLOBuds]
      07/10/05 07:26 AM

SLO.......you can now see the wisdom of my "alternate design" where I had the source pumps just chucking along day and night at their own pace and gradually filling the "ranch reservoir". My design virtually eliminates the friction loss considerations, water hammer, and differential pressure due to variations in line velocity. The "ranch reservoir" concept allows for tremendous instantaneous useage and eliminates squabbling between tenants. It removes storage tanks from remote locations where they attract bullets and have other maintenance issues. The best part is that you are already set up to do this, just add the radio-controlled on-off float switch and the "ranch reservoir" with it's attendant booster pump. I actually wish I was there to do all this stuff for you; it's been so long.......... I have a built-in propensity to move water.

CJDave

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CJDave
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Loc: Southeast Iowa
Re: 2 Booster Pumps, Same Mainline new [re: CJDave]
      07/10/05 07:34 AM

Had a customer who needed a household water supply and the only water was a spring that was a half-mile away and 600 feet lower than his house. I got him a 10,000 gallon atmospheric storage tank and we set it 100 feet higher than his house. That made it 700 feet higher than the spring. Then we used a three-piston positive-displacement pump to "jack" the water up the hill. A tricky radio control signaled the pump when the tank float called for water. The tank had dual outlets, one was three feet off the bottom. The upper outlet was the "duty" source and the bottom outlet was emergency. That way it let him know if the source had failed when he still had 3,000 gallons of water left. Luckily, the spring was close to the main road and when they ran power into his new house they installed a drop to power the spring water pump. We got some plans from Soil Conservation Service that showed how to "box" the spring. The setup has been in constant use since 1985.

CJDave

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egon
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