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bws
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question on new well system
08/18/03 10:09 AM
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we were qouted 6000.00 saturday for a 75-100ft well with submersable pump and 81 gal pressure tank and no electrical or plumbing done and 7000.00 for a relativly new "soft start"[1 3/4hp] system??i guess it uses less electricity and has a smaller 30 gal tank.he said its the new and upcoming thing in wells??anybody know about this new system??do some well drillers do everything[elec,plumbing ect]and how much more should it cost??thanks bws
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herbenus
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
08/18/03 12:33 PM
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There's a bunch of knowledgeable people here, and a lot of old posts you should look through. But the drillers in your area will know your area best. Get some more quotes, ask lots of questions. Mention driller A's name to driller B and see if you get a response. Ask your neighbors.
In my area, a 100 foot well would only be suitable as a livestock well (too acidic). Typically wells around here are 200-300 feet.
Unless a driller is licensed electrician, he probably won't touch electricity. For my well, I buried conduit and cable from breaker to new well location prior to drilling, along with water pipe. Driller then hooked up electricity at pump, along with water pipe. Then when I wasn't sure about where to hook in at in breaker box, driller helped me out. Saved cost of electrician.
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bws
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Re: question on new well system
[re: herbenus]
08/19/03 07:25 AM
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getting mailed another qoute[told him i was price shopping]its a consant pressure system thats new and alot of people are going to.the well driller i spoke with yesterday was not comfortable with them yet and said he would not do one.probably dont need a electrician just too h/u.thanks bws
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herbenus
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
08/19/03 08:20 AM
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I've been looking at these constant pressure systems as well. But I still haven't figured them out. Bypassing the tank and sending water straight to house sounds like a good idea. But a regulator can only drop pressure, not raise it. So it seems to me the only way to keep a constant pressure would be to regulate down to a lower pressure, or the low end of the cut-in/cut-out range. Or is the the tank and cut-out pressure set higher? At any rate, it looks like I can just buy the valve/switch/regulator set-up and retrofit later if I want. Right now my solution to fluctuating pressure was to install a second smaller tank closer to house, after filters and softener. This helped a lot. And besides, I used to live in Houston. I'm used to fluctuating water pressure.
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tenebrous
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
08/19/03 05:13 PM
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I don't know where you are but last year I paid 1800 for the well at 85 feet. An additional 1700 added a softner, pump and tank. All top of the line.
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WVBill
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Re: question on new well system
[re: herbenus]
08/20/03 07:20 AM
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I installed a SmartTank system from Flexcon Industries earlier this year and I'm very happy with it. The details are in This Thread .
Basically, the Pressure Regulator Valve (PRV) forms a "T" between the well pump, the pressure tank, and the house. The PRV is set to supply a constant 50 PSI to the house and pressure tank as long as the flow is greater than 1 GPM. When the flow is less than 1 GPM the pressure rises to the full pressure of the well pump.
What this means is that the house draws water (at greater than 1 GPM) from the tank until the pressure falls to the pump cut-on pressure. (The switch should be set for 40/60). When the pump cuts on, the PRV holds the pressure to the house/tank at 50 PSI so as long as you're drawing water, the pressure switch will never get to 60 PSI and cut off. Thus "Constant Pressure".
When you shut off the house water draw, the flow falls below 1 GPM and the PRV allows full pump pressure to be applied to the house & tank so that when the tank fills up the pressure switch senses 60 PSI and cuts off the pump.
Your house pressure will fall from 60 PSI to 40PSI as you draw water from the tank but as soon as the pump kicks on you get 50 PSI until you turn off the flow.
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herbenus
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Re: question on new well system
[re: WVBill]
08/20/03 08:01 AM
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Ah. That makes more sense. It's called constant pressure. But that's only when pump is on. With pump off, pressure will vary from 50 down to 40 psi, when pump kicks back on. Do I have it right now? And it should stay at 50 for a long time since tank starts out full and at 60 psi.
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WVBill
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Re: question on new well system
[re: herbenus]
08/20/03 12:34 PM
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In reply to:
It's called constant pressure. But that's only when pump is on. With pump off, pressure will vary from 50 down to 40 psi, when pump kicks back on. Do I have it right now? And it should stay at 50 for a long time since tank starts out full and at 60 psi.
Yes, it's constant pressure only when the pump is on. With the pump off, pressure actually drops from 60 (where it was when the pump kicked off) down to 40. How long it takes to get from 60 to 40 depends on the size of your pressure tank and how many faucets you have open, but when it hits 40 and the pump kicks on, it immediately jumps up to 50 at all of the open taps (assuming your pump can supply 50 PSI at that much flow rate). That's the way mine works anyway.
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
08/21/03 07:18 PM
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We had our well put down about 3 years ago now. It was about $4500.00 for a 125 footer with submersible pump and 1 frost free hydrant. Driller brought water into the house and wired the pump, but I had to make the plumbing connection from tank to house plumbing.
Steve
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bws
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we got 2 other qoutes on a standard system and a contant pressure system.standard was 6500.00[85ft,3/4hp pump,80 gal tank] and 7100.00 for a franklin constant pressure system.question-could i just buy a pump and tank from say northern tool ?? and then have the well driller wire and drop it in?? do i need a two wire or 3 wire 3/4 hp pump[franklin @ 329.00]??northern sells 41 to 220 gallon rated tanks for 99.00 to 299.00.seems like a deal compared to the 2000.00 the well driller is charging for a tank and pump??
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chrisjbell
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
08/24/03 11:31 PM
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could i just buy a pump and tank from say northern tool ?? and then have the well driller wire and drop it in??
They probably won't do it. First of all, part of the $$$ they make comes from a profit on the sale of the various parts. Secondly, they would have no way of knowing if what you were providing was all properly matched up and won't want to deal with possible hassles of making it work. Last, I think there's a pretty significant liablity issue with them only doing part of the work.
Worth asking, though...I'm curious what the response would be.
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turnkey4099
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Re: question on new well system
[re: WVBill]
08/30/03 09:47 AM
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Now that is something new. I have heard of them but hadn't had an explanation. At first glance, it sounds good to me but I see a big minus. Say I want to water my lawn. That means the pump is going to run constantly until I shut the water off. Why would I want that?. A system set 40-60 is going to operate any normal house equipment just fine at either end of the range. I see no need for a constant pressure system especially haveing to pay to run a pump continually when drawing water.
Harry K
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WVBill
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Re: question on new well system
[re: turnkey4099]
09/02/03 09:42 AM
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In reply to:
the pump is going to run constantly until I shut the water off. Why would I want that?.
Because the life of a well pump is measured in how many times it turns on. Without the PRV you "use up" maybe 30 of those cycles every hour you water the lawn - with the PRV you use up one.
Also, with several hoses going at once, the flow I got at the low end of the range was pretty anemic. With the PRV I get 50 PSI at the max flow of the pump all the time.
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herbenus
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Re: question on new well system
[re: WVBill]
09/02/03 12:51 PM
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Since we've had several inches of rain the last couple of days, I can't really check this right now. But I will check it. I believe that when I'm watering the yard, the pump just stays on. But I could be wrong. With one sprinkler maybe not, with two sprinklers I'm sure it stays on. Hey - That tells me it's better for the pump to use two sprinklers at once. I'll check it after my mushy yard dries out a little.
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WVBill
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Re: question on new well system
[re: herbenus]
09/03/03 06:42 AM
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If your pressure switch is set at 40 - 60, you don't have a PRV and your pump stays on when you're watering, then that means that your pump does not produce 60PSI at the flow rate allowed by your sprinkler(s) so the pressure doesn't reach cut-off. You don't need a PRV!
One of the checks to do before anyone buys a PRV system is to verify that your pump can produce sufficient flow rate to make it work. Maybe I should have said that in the first place.
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fuz1
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
09/03/03 07:18 PM
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Wow!!!! I'm glad I live in the midwest. In May I had a new well drilled, 550 feet , constant preasure system. total $4900.00 It works great. I have more water preasure than a lot of people that have city water in nearby St.Louis
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turnkey4099
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Re: question on new well system
[re: WVBill]
09/07/03 03:52 PM
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Good points on the starting cycles. I hadn't considered that, was just looking at the cost of running a pump constantly.
Harry K
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bigbukhntr
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Re: question on new well system
[re: turnkey4099]
09/08/03 03:33 PM
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I also just had a well dug a couple of months ago....the installer put in what he called a "cycle stop valve"...sounds like the same thing...I only use this for irrigation, as I irrigate about 2 acres (26 zones / 114 spray rotors)...some of these heads are about 500-600 yds away and he put a 70 p s i CSV in the line where the pipe comes out from the ground....since my sprinklers go for about 10 hrs about every 3rd day, he informed me that this would cut down the constant on/off of the pump, which as stated earlier, is the killer of most pumps! by the way, $4800 for 220 ft deep....hit water at 120 ft, kept hitting water till 200 ft, then hit gravel the next 40 ft..so we stopped drilling and he set the pump at about 180 ft!
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1994
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
09/24/03 11:56 AM
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Variable speed pumps do not save energy. you can get the same energy savings by using a simple valve on a standard pump. standard pumps spin 3450 RPM and the variable speed pumps spin from 4800 to 10800 RPM. The higher the RPM the quicker the pump will wear itself out. For more details see www.cyclestopvalves.com
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1994
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Re: question on new well system
[re: WVBill]
09/24/03 12:00 PM
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The Smart Tee has a one sixtenth of an inch drilled hole for a pump cooling bypass. When this tiny hole stops up you will burn up your pump. see an explanition at www.cyclestopvalves.com under cycle stop valves verses fully closing pump control valves.
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1994
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Re: question on new well system
[re: herbenus]
09/24/03 12:03 PM
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You will love constant pressure in your house. And it will fix your pressure problems. For more info on the differences see www.cyclestopvalves.com
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CJDave
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Re: question on new well system
[re: bws]
09/26/03 07:42 AM
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I'm going to try and control myself here so I don't sound too cynical, but after spending YEARS in the water supply business.....that's pumps from teeny-tiny to thousands of HP.... it still AMAZES me how many ways have been devised to keep from doing the right thing where pump installations are concerned. YES, I KNOW that the pump dealers are battling the price-shopping public, and YES, I KNOW that the public has little or no appreciation for well-engineered and well installed pumping systems if the cost is six cents higher than the other guy; but the fact is that: "You gits whut yew pays fer". Tiny storage tanks are the pits. There is not enough capacity to iron out the fluctuations in pressure from starts and stops, and they cause the pump to cycle just that much more. Variable speed pumps are fine.......for municipal customers and places where HUGE variations in flow must be accounted for and there is no space for a hydro-pneumatic tank. Why anyone would use one in a domestic setup is beyond me.......except for price........to avoid buying a decent sized tank. The other thing is that so many homeowners will drill where THEY want to drill and not where the tank and pump should rightly go. If a proper location is chosen to begin with, a large tank is not a problem, but heck, WHY PLAN ANYTHING when you can just slop it in. Landscape watering is a big problem for domestic water systems because the instantaneous flow is so much higher than the normal domestic use, and there is often a high pressure requirement for big sprinklers and THAT must be dealt with by using pressure regulators or the dishwasher valves will be slamming. Good-sized residences with lots of lawns need to have the pump sized for landscape watering FIRST, and the domestic use secondarily. Most good sprinkler timers have a pump "on" circuit that will keep the well pump from cycling while landscape irrigation is in progress, and that's a good way to set things up. Modern technology is nice; and I'm a firm believer in using what works the best. What you have to keep in mind, however, is that well and pump systems are VERY LONG TERM when compared to other consumer goods you might buy. The pump will have to deliver thousands and thousands of acre feet of water over it's useful life, and will be responding to literally hundreds of thousands of "ON" clicks of that pressure switch. It isn't a bit unusual for a submersible pump to last twenty years if the water is decent and there is no sand coming into the well. Do you think you can expect a constant-running variable flow unit to go that distance? How many bladder tanks will you buy in twenty years? I often went into pump rooms ....or looked at outdoor locations which had hydro-oneumatic pressure tanks with the destination dealer's name still showing on the side of the galvanized tank that was shipped by TRAIN in some cases; thirty od forty years ago. It was like a page of HISTORY, and a testament to a job well engineered and well done. In those cases the first two words the customer usually said were: "I need......." instead of: "How much......." The equipment that is available for domestic well installations today is designed to reduce INSTALLATION TIME AND COST by having ONE FITTING do several jobs, and enabling the crew to get done quicker and do five more jobs that same day instead of hanging around for cool-aid and cookies from ma and pa while they finished up the many details on a typical designed-from-the-ground-up pump installation, and maybe got back to the shop by four o'clock. By furnishing a cut-and-dried one-size-fits-all type of water system, the dealer can cut costs and maybe get the job. The system may not exactly fit the jobsite, but who cares when price is the main consideration.
CJDave
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1994
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Re: question on new well system
[re: CJDave]
09/30/03 12:03 PM
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CJDave I have also been in the well business for many years. Born in the business. Father and grandfather were well drillers and pump installers. Myself over 30 years in the business. I agree with you on most everything. Too many people are price shopping instead of getting good stuf at a reasonable price. It is funny to me that people will listen to a brother in law or a neighbor before they will take advice from an experienced pump person. Might have to do with getting so many different opinions from different pump people. Just like you and I disagree on variable speed pumps. I stopped using these things 12 years ago. Even on municiple systems they are expensive, more troble than they are worth, and do not save any energy. Variable speed pumps may work OK on sewage pumps and the like but, when you need to maintain a constant pressure you will lose head by the square of the speed. If you can slow a pump down by more than 10% then the pump is way oversized. Slowing a pump down by 10% reduces the horse power by only 25%. Most pumps will drop this much or more horse power by letting the pump run at full RPM and simply restricting the output with a valve. This is not only less expensive but more reliable than using variable speed. I also used to use as big a tank as possible. For over ten years now I have been using small tanks with a Cycle Stop Valve. I have systems with 40,000 people on a single 86 gallon pressure tank. My own house well uses a 20 gallon tank that only holds 5 gallons of water with a 2HP 25 GPM pump. A drip system in my garden uses only 3 GPM and was causing my pump to fail every 2 years even with (2) of the 86 gallon tanks attached. After installing the Cycle Stop Valve I removed these two big tanks and installed the 20 gallon tank. I have been using the same pump now for over 10 years. The Cycle Stop Valve has already saved me 5 replacement pumps. For more info see www.cyclestopvalves.com. Big pressure tanks, water towers, and variable speed pumps are a thing of the past.
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CJDave
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Re: question on new well system
[re: 1994]
10/01/03 10:54 AM
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I couldn't get that website to load, but I'm going to try again when I have more time. Those CSV's were non existent when I was doing water well work. They MAY have been around, but the domestic work was not our focus and we only doid domestic water systems when one of our customers insisted on it. I'm going to be re-habbing a well here on my Iowa 'farm" this next year and I already know that the pressure tank is blamo. The destination dealership stencilled on the tank shell hasn't been around for thirty years at least, maybe more.
CJDave
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1994
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Re: question on new well system
[re: CJDave]
10/01/03 02:55 PM
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CJDave Your right CSV's have been around for 10 years but the word is slow getting out. Many pump companies will not mention a CSV because it makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. Kind of like selling percolating carburetors, that make any car get 75 MPG, through the man that owns the gas station. He will only mention them if he has too. Then he will try to void warranty on your car if you use one. Make sure you use an (s) on valves or the web page won't work. Or call them at 800-652-0207 for written info.
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