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mfaley
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Focus or Prius?
07/13/05 05:41 PM
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Egon got me thinking about this with a comment he made in another thread and I don’t have enough engineering/math skills to figure it out.
So here is my question. If I get about 30 mpg in a Ford Focus, and I can get about 50 mpg in a Toyota Prius it seems like I would buy a Toyota Prius but what is the true environmental cost of the vehicle? It seems like I have a lot of environmentally expensive batteries in the beginning and would need to replace them over time at least once. Additionally, I think that there are more parts to wear out on the Prius.
It seems like I might need to get a new little car for those quick trips to town and I was looking for something like the Ford Focus but someone mentioned it would be better for the environment to get the Toyota Prius. But I am not sure that statement is true.
Or was this already covered on another thread and I just could not find it?
Thanks,
Mark
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Bird
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: mfaley]
07/13/05 06:24 PM
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Mark, I don't know the answer to your question, although if the sole criteria is the environment, then I think the Prius would win. On the other hand, if cost is a consideration, then I think the Focus would win. I bought a new 1993 Escort, put 121k miles on the odometer and it was still in great condition when my wife totalled it in '99, so I bought a new 1999 Escort; only put about 44k on it before she talked me into trading for something bigger (a Windstar). Both Escorts averaged over 32 mpg. Now what's the purchase price difference between a Prius and a Focus? Yesterday, I was looking at four Ford Escapes at the local Ford dealer; two were the regular gas versions and two were the hybrids. Those hybrids were rated at 36 mpg city and 31 mpg highway, while the gas was rated at 20 mpg city and I think 26 mpg highway. Window sticker prices were about $6k more for the hybrids (approx. $30k). I didn't test drive any of them, but think I would like those little hybrids; however, the cost difference between that and the Focus is considerable. In fact, I'd probably have a Focus instead of the Windstar if it weren't for my wife, but I guess I have to try to keep her happy since she's put up with me for 40 years.
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GaryM
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: mfaley]
07/13/05 10:22 PM
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I have a 2004 Prius, as does fellow poster Pat. I was moving from a home 8 miles from my work location, to a home 50 miles from work. The vehicle I was driving to work is a Ford Expedition. At 14-15 MPG driving 8 miles was no big deal. 50 miles on the other had was a major expense. As I was going to buy a new vehicle anyway, laying out 22K for the Prius was, I think, a reasonable decision. The other car I was considering was a Camrey, and the price difference wasn't that great. There might have been no difference at all, depending on option packages.
I now have over 50K miles on the Prius and average 46-49 MPG. That's running about 600 miles a week with much of that on the hiway at 75MPH or faster.
I don't think I paid much, if any, extra for the benefits of the Prius. Have had no problems at all with the car. I have needed to replace the tires though.
If you're not going to put enough miles on the car you might not make up the price difference in fuel savings. That aside I do really like the car. It has spirited performance and handles curves just fine. Cruises fine at 80 MPH.
Your Milage may vary, as they say in the auto ads. 
Gary
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Pat
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Bird]
07/13/05 10:37 PM
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The best info I was able to glean is that the Prius costs about $1500 premium for its being hybrid. I am a Prius owner for just over a year. the best tank average (just under 10 gal used) I got so far is 52.8 MPG but my wife manages to keep our average closer to 45MPG.
The prius is a mid sized car, just ask a Toyota salesman. If I sit in the driver's seat I can't run the seat all the way back and comfortably reach the controls. I am 6'2" 240lbs. If The driver's seat IS all the way back and tilted some too AND I sit in the back seat I still have a couple inches of knee clearance until I slump down to clear my head. The back seat is good for folks up to about 6 or 6-1 tall. Front seat should handle 6-3 or more, especially if you lean the seat back a bit. Although rated as a 5 passenger car (5 seat belts) it is much more comfortable with 4 passengers if they are full sized adults.
Lets take some hypothetical examples:
If you drove 12,000 miles at 30 mpg you'd use 400 gal of gas costing (at $2.20/gal) $880.
If instead you got 45 mpg you'd use 266.7 gal and pay $533.33 which is an annual savings of $346.67.
I have 7 year 100,000 mile warranty on my Prius so lets see what the gas consumption would be for the first 100,000 miles with each car.
At 30mpg you'd use 3333.33 gal and at 45mpg you'd use 2222.22 gal. This is a savings of 1111.11 galons of gas. At todays prices that would be a difference of $2444.44.
Those were just some numbers for some comparisons about costs. If you want to be greener the Prius is your car. It is a clever hybrid design which emissions wise is is way cleaner. With its emissions, even if you drove it enough to equal the total gas consumption of a Focus or whatever you'd still be creating a whole lot less polution out the tailpipe. It is one of the cleanest production cars available. It has an EPA rating of PZEV (partial zero emissions vehicle)
I can't tell you what the total cost of ownership over the useful lifetime is for its competition but if your desicion method gives much weight to being green vs lowest initial cost then the Prius is the deal.
I have a good friend (currently out of state and unavailable) who is a PhD biologist and is really into being green. He has looked at a lot of angles and short of riding a bike he decided our '04 Prius was just too good so he recently bought the identical car, same color same options but identified as an '05. The difference between the '04 and the '05 is the VIN. We can't ID a single difference.
Chime in Gary... OOPS your superior typing speed shows up again. When I started this post Gary hadn't sent his messatge yet. HMMMM
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (07/13/05 10:41 PM)
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Bird
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Pat]
07/14/05 06:10 AM
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Pat, do you happen to know the differences in the Prius and the Ford Escape (differences, if any, in the technology)? I had never heard of an Atkinson cycle (or Otto cycle) engine before. Apparently the Prius is rated for much better gas mileage. I read a brochure on the Escape that mentioned an 8 year, 100k mile warranty on the battery pack (don't know whether that's a "standard feature" or an extra cost option). In other words, why would a person buy one instead of the other, except for body style.
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GaryM
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Bird]
07/14/05 07:21 AM
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I knew Pat would show up! I think, based on posts at least, that Pat and I are the only Prius owners on the board.
Ford licensed the hybrid technology from Toyota. So other than differences in power and 4WD adaptations they operate the same way. Toyota's hybrid Highlander is due out in late Summer or Fall. So the adaptations to fit the system into the Escape may have in fact been done by Toyota.
I'm not certain of the price penalty on the hybrid Escape vs. the traditional model, but I'm not too impressed with their advertised milage ratings. Now if you consider the difference in emissions, and you want to be "green", it may be worthwhile to make the move.
As Pat did I also purchased the 100K warantee. Unfortunatly I've not had to have any work done. 
BTW, I averaged 49.3 MPG on my drive to work this morning. That's with the cruise contol set at 78MPH.
And Pat pointed out that the Prius is a mid sized car. I've never sat in a Focus, but visual appearance makes me think it's smaller than the Prius.
Gary
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Bird
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: GaryM]
07/14/05 05:13 PM
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Thanks, Gary, and yes, I think the Focus is smaller than the Prius, and while I have not been in a Focus, it appears to be slightly larger than the Escorts we had. I actually found hte Escorts to be very comfortable, even on long trips in the front seats. Even though the '93 was a station wagon and the '99 was a 4-door sedan, I would not have wanted to ride any distance in the back seats.
And I do wonder why the Prius is rated for so much higher gas mileage than the Escape if it's the same basic technology.
While I like the environmental aspects and the appearance, size, etc. of the Escape, I guess I better just keep my 01 Ford Ranger (averaging 18.647 mpg) with 42k on the odometer and 01 Ford Windstar (averaging 19.768 mpg) with 58k on the odometer since they're paid for and comfortable. 
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Pat
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Bird]
07/14/05 10:02 PM
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BIG SURPRISE!!! Yet another Ford that doesn't get the mileage that Toyota does. Bird, don't be offended... I have owned all Ford pickups until I bought a used Dakota and a new Ram/Cummins 1 ton.
I suppose areodynamics could be a decent difference. Toyota went to extremes with wind tunnel testing and the results show. The Prius is seriously slippery.
Ford lisc the technology from Toyota. Toyota made it easy on purpose by not making the NAME of the technology contain a reference to Toyota. The name is "hybrid synergy" a brand neutral monicer.
We don't know how much Toyota influence there was in Fords implementation, another potential source of error.
Are we all on the same page of music. Aren't we indiscriminantly mixing up Escape and Focus?
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Pat]
07/14/05 10:55 PM
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In reply to:
my wife manages to keep our average closer to 45MPG.
Oh I hope the wife does not read CBN!!!
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: egon]
07/14/05 11:59 PM
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She is well aware that she get lousy mileage and always is positive in her comments about how when I drive I bring up the average as displayed on the info screen. I got 51.x MPG on the way home from Oklahoma City today driving AT LEAST the posted 70mph.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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GaryM
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Pat]
07/15/05 07:52 AM
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Pat, I guess I need to have you come to Warrenton and give me lessons in good milage!
<b>Bird</b>, the Escape may suffer in milage primarily due to it's size and shape, but the system may have been modded to provide more power as well. After all, it's a SUV, right?
Perhaps Pat knows, is the HP available in the Escape's system greater than that available in the Prius? All the energy comes from the gas engine in the end.
Gary
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Bird
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: GaryM]
07/15/05 09:34 AM
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Gary, the technology may be the same (or similar), but if you go to Toyota.com and Ford.com and look at the engine specs, they don't seem to compare at all. Toyota, 76 gas engine hp, 1.5L, dual overhead cam, 67 electric engine hp, etc. and Ford, 133 gas engine hp, Atkinson cycle engine, 2.3L, 94 electric hp and 155 combined hp, etc.
Judging only from their "published" specs, it would appear that Ford claims a lot more power. Toyota, 82 ft.lbs. torque for gas, 295 ft.lbs. electric, while Ford lists 124 ft.lbs. torque for gas, but no listing for electric. 
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Bird
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Bird]
07/15/05 09:36 AM
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I wonder in the real world which one accelerates better, what top speeds are, etc. I didn't find any real performance specs.
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mfaley
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Bird]
07/15/05 12:19 PM
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Thanks Gents.
I guess one of the things I was trying to figure out is what are the real "costs" of the vehicles to the environment. As an example, building a Tour de France race bike is much more environmentally expensive than is a nice every day bike.
So my thinking is that it takes quite a bit to manufacture those extra batteries in the Hybrids and they have to be replaced. It's not ideal to simply throw batteries away in a landfill. So over the life of the vehicle....from manufacturing to disposal is a Hybrid really saving me anything from the environmental perspective?
Thanks,
Mark
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GaryM
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: mfaley]
07/15/05 10:08 PM
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As far as the batteries go, I can say with some authority that Toyotas policy is to replace individual cells rather than trash the whole battery. Weak cells can be replaced.
Lead acid batteries are normally processed to reclaim useable material. That's for ones handled at dealers. Individuals probably toss them in a landfill.
Gary
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Pat
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: GaryM]
07/19/05 10:26 PM
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If I recall correctly, Toyota plans to recycle the batteries. If you are comparing the GREEN-NESS of the cars including manufacture, lifecycle operations and maint, I think Prius wins. If you are comparing Prius to other cars in general, Prius wins. If you are comparing Prius to some hypothetical concept then I vote for the non-commercially available theoretical concept as it is far less poluting and resource consumptive but it won't transport 4 adults in decent comfort because it isn't available.
You might enjoy http://www.priusonline.com
They have a section on OTHER hybrids and lots of technonerds speculating on hydrogen powered cars etc.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Chillimau
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Pat]
07/20/05 07:17 AM
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Pat,
What is the expected life of the batteries and replacement cost?
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mfaley
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Pat]
07/20/05 04:02 PM
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Thanks Pat. I think Green ness is the better term for what I was thinking about. I will look at the Prius again.
I will look through that link you provided.
Thanks again.
Mark
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Pat
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Chillimau, I'm not sure of the replacement cost but the warranty on the "traction" battery is 8 years and 100,000 miles so they must not be too worried about "premature" failure. I have been unable to find a dealer that has ever replaced a "traction" battery. There are two batteries, the high voltage one for powering the electric motor and the 12 volt one for powering all the standard accessories. I assume your interest is in the high voltage one. The high voltage battery is modular and doesn't have to be replaced "en mass" should a cell die.
California rules are different and if I recall correctly the battery warranty for cars purchased in "Kalifornia" have a 150,000 warranty. Same battery and this car sells like hotcakes in California so I don't think battery changes/repairs are frequent.
mfaley... I have analyzed your concern for complexity and decided that perhaps a used Yugo might be a better choice for you.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (07/23/05 03:55 AM)
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GaryM
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Re: Focus or Prius?
[re: Pat]
07/23/05 12:22 PM
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Pat,
Know why Yugo's have a heated rear window?
So your hands don't get cold when you push it in the winter!
Gary
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