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Pat
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Cyclonic dust collection
03/07/08 03:03 PM
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I am only 3 years overdue in getting a good dust collector for my shop. Not that I procrastinate mind you, just busy with hi priority tasks. I finally got one on order and expect it will be up and running by the end of the month (hope hope hope!)
Oneida was my selected source. I am getting the 3 HP Super Gorilla. In addition to dust collection for various wood working tools it can fill 55 gal drums with pelletized cattle feed (corn gluten soy hull mix) from a bulk source (dump trailer).
I probably don't really need the 3HP model but... it comes with free ductwork design ($200 normally) and is only a little bit more expensive than the 2 1/2 HP model and maybe $400 more than the 2 HP model which for my application would be marginal. The 3 HP has a good rebate on shipping too (for a limited time.)
I will be installing some WYE fittings in the duct runs so the shop layout will be reconfigurable with little effort. Of course it has an accessory hose with shop vac style attachments so you can use it like a shop vac. The blower with motor will be on the other side of a wall with sheetrock on both sides so the noise factor will not be much of an issue. With ear protection for the shop equipment I will probably not hear the DC unit.
For anyone not familiar with a cyclonic system... It runs the air stream from your tools including chips, dust, and all through a cone shaped device that separates out all the chips and most of the dust and them puts the air flow through a pleated filter that gets 99.9% of everything above 0.2 microns. The chips and larger dust particles go into a drum for easy disposal and the really fine dust is in the filter which has a Teflon like coating that prevents dust from sticking to it. You tap on the filter and most of the fine dust falls into a removable cap. The fine filter is designed to last 5-10 years depending on yor amount of use.
I read comparison tests published in several woodworking magazines and Oneida was NEVER beaten overall.
I'm looking forward to being able to butcher wood without having a thick coating of dust distributed all over the shop and in my lungs or having to wear a dust mask which I find uncomfortable and sometimes fogs my glasses. I use a shop vac for dust collection some now but it is just nowhere near powerful enough and the filter clogs way before the tank is even half full of ships and dust so is a continuing repetitive pain to empty, clean the filter and reassemble lather rinse repeat.
There are some web sites with instructions on a DIY cyclone but I spend too much time as it is building stuff to be used to build other stuff instead of building the other stuff.
Any other CBN'ers with cyclonic dust collection tendencies?
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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CJDave
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/07/08 09:42 PM
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 One of the guys from our church just installed one. I haven't seen it, but I recall him mentioning that they had some anti-static wire along with the suction tube? Does that sound right? One of the things I have wondered about is how the system works when I know that to a great extent cyclones are flow-specific. The Q cannot vary a great deal up or down if you are to get good separation. How do you compensate when you run a dinky tool as compared to the bigger ones? 
CJDave
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egon
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/08/08 04:59 AM
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Seeing as it will be capable of handling cattle feed I surely hope you orderd a second one for the shop!! 
Masks are much more comfortable on a shaven face!! ehh! 
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/08/08 08:00 AM
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Dave, If you do it right you don't need a static wire because you don't use plastic pipe.
with just a small hole open and the rest of the blast gates closed the dust/chips from the tool will be whisked up the hose at high velocity but when this relatively small volume gets to the larger "main line" the velocity of flow drops precipitously and the chunks fall out and can clog the run.
To avoid that yoiu partially open another blast gate to let enough total air fow occur to keep the velocity up in the larger ducts. This will NOT hurt the chip/dust collectioin at the small tool.
My system will have some 8 inch ducts dropping to 5 and have various size flex hoses to connect to everything from 1 1/2 to 4 inch dust ports on various tools.
Some people try to use plastic pipe to save $ and end up with a much lower performing system. With plastic you sure need an anti-static wire inside all ducts.
Boy oh boy my DeWalt 13 inch planer makes serious sparks to your hand (or other portion of your anatomy) if the ground connection from the flex hose is not connected to the machine to use the third wire ground in the electrical supply. This is WITHOUT a cyclone, just the flex hose to a bag sort of attachment that goes over a trash can and secures with a bungee cord draw string.
If runs are very long, serious flow restriction will occur with 4 inch PVC. Main runs need to be at least 6 inch and like I said 8 is recommended (unless this is a small DIY cyclone.) If it is over one HP I wouldn't do it with 4 inch PVC. Mine is 3 HP. @ was marginal for my ap, 2 1/2 was OK but the 3 was only a couple hundred more and came with a shipping discount and a $200 free custom duct design. Seemed like the best choice and will leave room for growth.
Pat
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CJDave
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/09/08 06:07 PM
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Having spent a good sized chunk of my working like working with flowrates of non-compressible fluids, I'm fairly aware of the kinds of velocities that work and don't work. Air is a different story, I don't know very much except for the similarities that might exist as far as vortexes and entrance losses.
CJDave
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/10/08 06:00 PM
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Actually the only difference is the Froude number CJ.
Egon
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: egon]
03/10/08 08:40 PM
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I have no idea what that is, except for an English historian with the same last name. I'm searching the dusty cavities of my brain to see it it was ever mentioned in discussions of open channel flow or closed conduit flow. In a vacuum scavenging system, wouldn't you WANT to maintain some turbulence to keep the soild matter from settling and lodging? Kind of the opposite of fluid flow?
CJDave
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Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/11/08 10:09 AM
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Yeah, you oil pipers just aren't all that savvy WRT Reynolds numbers relating to aerodynamics and all that jaz.
Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/11/08 01:42 PM
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Oh, we have the Reynolds Numbers in fluids as well. **** You know what has always astounded me is that the ROMANS could build a cross-country aqueduct such that the slope minus the friction loss due to roughness gave them the perfect water level; not too shallow, not overflowing the sides. Just to give you an idea of how tough that is, ... the great California Aqueduct project of the sixties carries less water than anticipated because the roughness factor of the concrete lining was off by just a slight squeeze of the slide rule.
CJDave
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Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/11/08 04:04 PM
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Yes but... The Romans had a slightly different manner of policing the practitioners of engineering which led to greater motivation to get it right.
For example, the chief architect/engineer/designer/builder of an arch would stand below the center of the arch as the scaffolding was removed. If it fell in then the man responsible was permanently elliminated from the professional society (by being crushed by tons of stone) and his apprentices were on notice that their training was suspect and I'll bet they were careful to whom they turned for continuing training/employment.
Thus I posit that Roman engineers were highly professional, cautious, and motivated toward successful designs and realization of those designs.
In our times there are lawsuits, E&O insurance, and such but RARELY so much as a prosecution much less an execution.
Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/13/08 10:47 AM
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Got notice that part of the cyclonic dust collection system shipped and is due here the 18th. It is the main unit. All the duct fittings and stuff will be delayed since they haven't mailed me their duct design for review yet. I'm thinking it will probably NOT be installed and running by the end of the month. OH WELL, I have some fencing and stuff to occupy my time. That and a dozen first time heifers about to pop. Me a midwife to a bunch of Angus heifers????
Pat
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Bird
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/13/08 01:33 PM
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In reply to:
a midwife to a bunch of Angus heifers????
Been there and done that, and don't especially care for it, although I don't think yours should be quite so bad. Most of my experience was during the hours of darkness, colder'n a well digger's hip pockets, with cows that were so wild they had to be tied to a tree or the truck bumper to keep them from attempting to kill us.
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/14/08 05:04 AM
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Who gets to do the nightly checks or do you take turns?
A closed circuit surveillance of the calving area would allow you to remain in bed.
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Bird]
03/14/08 08:54 AM
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Bird, My heifers are not petable but will come up to within a foot or two to sniff me to see if I have a bucket of feed in my pocket. A friend has 10 head running in with mine and one of his cows is a WILD THING. I keep one of his bulls at my place and he has mine at his till we see the calves my young bull produces.
His bull is a real tank, a huge black Angus but the only threat to me is if I should do something stupid like dump a bucket of feed in front of him and then stand there in the way because he might step on my foot. He is one calm laid back bull but takes care of business just fine and produces nice calves with low birthweight which is easy on the momma but the calves are fast gainers and get big fast.
I have read research reports that correlate the time you feed the expectant mothers with the time of day when they drop a calf. Feeding in late afternoon has a strong tendency to cause the calves to be born during daylight hours whereas feeding early or randomly and a lot more calves are born at late and unusual hours which is, as you know, not convenient for you or any vet you may need. So I feed only well after lunch and up to about sundown. The 11 first timers make me nervous as I'm not the best midwife around by a long shot.
I'm anxious to see if the cyclonic dust collection system will work as good for filling drums from bulk feed in my dump trailer as I hope it does. I know food processors use systems like a woodworking dust collector to move bulk materials. Hopefully it will work for me so my wife and I will not be doing it by hand next time. We use a 2 gal bucket to fill 5 gal buckets to fill drums. Not fun when you are moving several tons of feed.
If this "other duty as assigned" task for my dust collector works to my expectations, I will be able to fill drums easily, roll them out of the garage onto the apron and use the tractor to put them on the trailer and then use the tractor to unload the trailer at the barn where I store the drums.
Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/14/08 09:06 AM
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Pat, I've seen a few (probably much cheaper) dust collection systems, but nothing like you've described, or nothing that would be used to move feed. 
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Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: egon]
03/14/08 10:00 AM
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Right now the heifers are free to roam in the NE 40 acres plus a half acre holding pen, corral, and a feeding area inside the barn where the feed troughs and mineral troughs are located. I hope to fence off a couple acres with temp electric fence that abuts the corral on the other side and confine those closest to popping there. It will require me to fill water tubs every other day if not every day (depends on temps a bit) but I have water to a frost free hydrant at the barn now so it is not a big deal.
By limiting them to a smaller conveniently located area I figure we won't be out crawling through the worst brush and gullies where they instinctively try to hide in order to check on them.
Trying to have remote surveillance for a 40 plus acre area with some of it treed and some brushy back sides of dams and such is not too easy. I guess I could launch a UAV with telemetry, an eye in the sky.
I can see the area I will be using to confine them when they are really close to popping from an upstairs window and can see if any of them are down (unless they hide behind the barn. Still as their time approaches the frequency of checking will go up to at least twice a day.
...and Bird, I respect your experience with wild cattle. Since I have a choice, I will not tolerate any individuals that are hard to handle. So far so good. Mine are almost like puppies.
Pat
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Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Bird]
03/14/08 01:37 PM
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Typical dust collector systems with bags as filters pull the dust and debris through the impeller on the way to the bags. A cyclonic unit runs the stream of air carrying chips and dust through the cyclone where most of the stuff falls out at the bottom into a drum. Then the air goes through the impeller and then through a filter effective down to a fraction of a micron.
Many of the bag type mentioned first above spew out a tremendous amount of the finest (too small to be seen till it builds up a film)dust which you get in your lungs PERMANENTLY as it is too fine for your cilia to remove.
Quite different in the way they work. If you see a cone shaped thing with a duct going into it tangentially at the top and an outlet at the bottom (tip of the cone) at a woodworking operation or a mill or whatever, it is a cyclone type. Since the pelletized cattle feed would not go through the impeller it won't get ground up.
Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/14/08 03:17 PM
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A friend of mine has video surveillance of their calving area. They put the expectant cows into a small enclosure just for this purpose.
Egon
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/14/08 06:31 PM
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Pat, what you really needed to build is a "baghouse". You may have seen these in industry, but in case you haven't, I'll sort of give you a general idea of what they are. First you get a chamber that is big enough to walk into and has a gasketed doorway suitable for vacuum. You pipe the debris-gathering pipe into this chamber. The walls of the chamber have circular holes about seven inches in diameter. Into these holes go a couple hundred cone-shaped vacuum cleaner bags with the cones pointing out of the chamber. So now it looks like a box with horns poking out. THEN you put THAT chamber inside a bigger chamber, also vacuum tight and with a gasketed door. You cut the outer chamber and slide the debris pipe completely through it and circumferentially weld it not only on the outer chamber but butt-weld it onto the inner chamber as well so there are no leaks and the debris will shoot right through to the inner chamber. THEN, you cut a huge suction pipe into the outer chamber that goes to a big centrifugal fan with very low NPSH capability; .... maybe something that runs at 870 RPM. The discharge side of that fan has some token flat filters just to keep the EPA happy, but the cone filters are actually holding all of the crud. Once a week you stroll into the inner chamber and swap out the bags. Pat, you could put together a reasonable sized model for well under twenty grand, not counting the gen set needed to run the 100 HP suction fan.
CJDave
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/14/08 06:39 PM
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Pat, you have doubtlessly sped by a strange-looking semi on the freeway and may even have noticed that it had a PTO-driven Roots-type blower sitting on the short deck between the cab and the first drive axle of the tractor. The body of the trailer may have had three or four distinct compartments that are all linked with a common tube at the very bottom of the cone-shaped compartments. The blower blasts air down the tube and as it blows by the small opening to a compartment, it picks up the kernels of grain and entrains them in the stream, all the way to the top of very tall silos, where a cyclonic separator awaits. You could get one of these for cattle feeding; a smaller version, of course. 
CJDave
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/15/08 08:08 AM
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I had read about bag houses in my literature search. A modern variant is a bunch of small sized cyclones.
I think I will be happy with the typical cyclonic system frequently used in woodworking. Transferring feed is a bonus, not the systems purpose.
Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/15/08 08:11 AM
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Dave, I don't recall seeing a mobile unit as you describe. I don't have an overhead feed storage at this time. The 18 wheeler that delivers to my friends recycled oil tanks hauls 28 tons and uses an auger to move the feed.
Pat
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: Pat]
03/15/08 10:45 AM
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Pheumatic unloading lends itself to tall silo applications, and the silo owners love it because they have almost no maintenance since the moving parts are on the truck. Plants with limited ground space like the pheumatic unload system because their storage can go UP and yet not require a system of augers or conveyors. They use it for all types of small grains, uncluding corn. I'm not so sure how well it would work with mixed feed, however.
CJDave
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/15/08 12:59 PM
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Dave, several years ago, during our RVing days, we visited International Falls, MN (in the Summer) mainly because we'd heard of it frequently being the coldest spot in the nation at times during the Winter, and we knew absolutely nothing about International Falls when we drove in there (before our Internet access days). But we took the public tour of the Boise Cascade paper mill; very interesting and fascinating tour.
There was the absolute largest pile of wood chips I've ever seen a couple of city blocks from the paper mill, and a huge overhead pipe from the pile of wood chips to the plant. If that isn't the biggest pneumatic material transferring system in the world (and of course it may not be) I can't imagine what is.
But if anyone ever gets to International Falls, I'd highly recommend that free tour. I see here that they say they have the second largest and fastest paper making machine in the world. I don't know how big it is, but they were making some 9' wide rolls and one 13' wide roll of paper when we were there.
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Re: Cyclonic dust collection
[re: CJDave]
03/15/08 03:14 PM
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The 18 wheeler to which I referred earlier caries its own articulated auger to deliver the feed to overhead storage. It also has an auger inside the trailer and "valves" between storage compartments so the segmented storage can be unloaded sequentially.
The feed I have been using is corn gluten and soy hulls in a pelletized form with pellets about the size of wood pellets for stoves. The mechanical auger on the delivery truck has no problem with it and I suspect my dust collector will move it just fine. Even if a little wood dust gets into the feed that is a non-problem.
Oneida has a product called the "Dust Deputy" which is a mini-cyclonic unit that goes atop a bucket or drum and acts as a prefilter for a shop vac. All the big pieces and most of the fines fall out into the container at the prefilter (Dust Deputy) and not much makes it to the shop vac. This is a handy gadget. Opening a shop vac to dump stuff I find that usually the filter is clogged way before the storage volume is filled with debris. With a Dust Deputy you hardly have to open the shop vac.
I intend to cobble a Dust Deputy onto a 55 gal drum lid (the kind with the compression ring seal) and use a shop vac to suck feed from a container and place it into the drum. When full you move the lid with the Dust Deputy to the next drum. With this rig (Dust Deputy and shop vac) powered by a generator, I will be able to fill drums without having to do it by hand one 5 gal bucket at a time. As air leaks around the lid to drum seal will lower performance I plan to make a large rubber band out of a bicycle tube and place that over the area of interest. the vacuum should pull the rubber in and seal any leaks. Failing that I could expend 3 1/2 feet of duct tape per drum and git 'er done.
Oh, I'm not familiar with Pheumatic devices. Are they similar to pneumatic ones? 
Pat
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