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hazmat
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AFFORDABLE table saws
10/01/02 11:40 AM
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I've been reading the Table Saws thread in the fabrication forum.
The $300-$600 difference in price you guys are talking about amongst the high end machines is about what I want to spend.
It's first job will be to rip the "last run" of hardwood flooring. It will see occasional use here and there for home improvement. I am not even a "hobby" woodworker.
What do you guys recommend for mere mortals like myself? Any brands over others? Any "features" I should look for?
Hazmat
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s1120
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/01/02 11:53 AM
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You will see in the thred I talked about the cheep Skill I have. Not the best, but I have had no real problem with it.
Paul Bradway
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egon
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/01/02 12:09 PM
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Look for the largest amp rating you can get and try for a saw that has the blade driven by belts rather than directly from the motor.
Egon
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s1120
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: egon]
10/01/02 12:14 PM
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try for a saw that has the blade driven by belts rather than directly from the motor.
I've never herd of that before. Whats the advantage?
Paul Bradway
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idaho04
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/01/02 01:57 PM
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I am new to BCN and still catching up. I am a vivid woodworker and like to build. I have an old Craftsman TS which works OK. I have bought a lot of other tools recently, such as, bandsaw, planer, jointer, mortiser. I like Grizzly tools. They have a great catalog, good prices and excellent service. Their shipping was not always the best but they always provided good support. To summarize; maybe a little hassle to get it working but once it is tuned up and working it lasts and works well. As fas as TSs, the most important is the blade and fence.
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: s1120]
10/01/02 03:31 PM
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You usually get a lower rpm motor and it's easier to replace the motor with something else if reqired. Egon
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Hank
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: idaho04]
10/01/02 03:40 PM
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As fas as TSs, the most important is the blade and fence.
I agree 100%. A good blade for the intended purpose. A fence that clamps down always parallel to the grooves in the table. Aftermarket fences can alleviate this issue, but it's better if you have a decent one to begin with, so you are not always fighting it. Motor power can always be compensated for by slower feed/smaller cuts.
At one time, the Delta "Contractor's Saw" was a good deal.
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Hank
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: Hank]
10/01/02 04:16 PM
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A fence that clamps down always parallel to the grooves in the table.
A fence that clamps down closer to the blade at the far end (even by 1/32") creates a very dangerous situation, as the work is in a bind, and will want to kick back.
Edited by Hank (10/01/02 04:23 PM)
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GaryM
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: s1120]
10/01/02 05:18 PM
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In some cases it also allows a greater depth of cut. Some saws have the blade mounted directly on the motor. So the diameter of the motor prevents the blade from raising out of the table as far as it might otherwise.
Gary
----------------------------------------------
Hey! Aren't you supposed to be working?
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/01/02 07:05 PM
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The most AFFORDABLE table saw I aquired was one that was in the storage room of the company my wife used to work at. They needed some work done which required me to bring the saw home to do. My wife got "let go" two weeks later. I called the owner and asked when would be a good time to return the saw. She said if I finished the work. I could get my pay and keep the saw. I did both. It really is a piece of crap, but I still have it. Works for what I need it for so far
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jtd
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: idaho04]
10/01/02 08:53 PM
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Grizzley stands behind the equipment also. I've had a motor replaced on a dust collector with no issues from them.
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ScottAR
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: s1120]
10/01/02 11:20 PM
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The main advantage of belt drive is more useable power. I have the delta contractor's saw mentioned above. It is belt drive and will zing through 2x stock all day without a wimper. It was about $500-600 if I remember. I've used their economy direct drive model and although it did the job, it wasn't as easy to use and to me (subjective) lacked power although they are rated nearly the same hp wise. The fence felt very cheap and clunky compared to the contractor model. I should say my only other experience prior to using the direct drive model was with a Delta Unisaw and my Delta Contractor.
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: ScottAR]
10/01/02 11:57 PM
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I have the Jet contractor saw, and have been very happy with it. It runs right around $500; there were 2 things I liked about it as opposed to most other saws in this range. First, the fence is pretty solid, and equally important moves and locks into place easily and smoothly. Also the motor is TEFC (totally enclosed, fan cooled), meaning that the internals are sealed so you don't get sawdust inside.
Bri
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hazmat
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Thanks for the advice so far. Now I have an idea of what to look for. My brother has a cheap craftsman (they sell stuff from $100 - $1,500 what a range!). He complained about the fence.
Related question, Are the extensions that most manufacturers sell worth it? I can see the benefit of 48" of "capacity" vs. the "standard" 24" or so. I do have a circular saw that I can use for this application.
Hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 07:30 AM
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Hi Hazmat, When I saw your post, I remembered one of the Woodworker Magazine, that I get had a review on Tablesaws. Well, I couldn't find that issue. Sorry. It may still be in newstands.
I've got a cheaper Craftsman Table Saw, which I paid around $150 for. It cuts great, but there is a couple of things that are not so good. As said here before the fence is not very good on it, and you need to use a tape to make sure the cut will be right. Also the table is a bit small for longer, and wider boards. I made a wooden table, which I can move, and attach to the saw to make the table surface bigger. And as mentioned the blade is very important. I wish I had bought a bigger, more expensive saw, but at the time that I bought it, I didn't know, that I would use it so much.
As far as the magazines go, I get Woodworkers Journal, American Woodworker, and Handy Man. The article is in one of those magazines. If I run across it, I'll let you know which one.
Kent
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Hank
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 07:43 AM
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Related question, Are the extensions that most manufacturers sell worth it? I can see the benefit of 48" of "capacity" vs. the "standard" 24" or so
At our shop, we always bought the extension tubes and table leaves for the Unisaws, then cut them to different sizes. One saw would do 49", another 37", and the third 31". We rarely used the 49" capacity, only for cutting sheet material in half. A circular saw does this just as well and saves you the bux.
The fence extensions were primarily useful as a stop, using a cut-off box on the saw, and you can get past this by nailing a long strip of wood to the cut-off box.
As long as you can get to the center of 4x8 sheet material (24"+), that should be all you'd ever need.
Geez, I've got to get some work done today, and I haven't even visited TBN yet
Edited by Hank (10/02/02 07:44 AM)
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: Hank]
10/02/02 07:48 AM
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What is a "cut off box"? Feel free to answer after you get your work done
Hazmat
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Hank
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 08:17 AM
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What is a "cut off box"? Feel free to answer after you get your work done
But this online community is far more enjoyable than work, and I still haven't made it to TBN yet.
I sort of tried to 'splain a cut-off box in the table saw thread. It is the single most useful addition to a table saw I ever used, and we used one 90% of the time on our saws.
Since I don't have ProEngineer, I'll just have to try words. Perhaps you can draw it
Start with a 1/2" plywood bottom, about 14" wide by 30" long. You want the flattest piece you can find. Screw and glue some nice hardwood strips to the bottom (teak is good because it's naturally oily). These are sized to closely fit your table grooves, so now the plywood rides in both table grooves, more or less centered over the blade.
Carefully wind the running blade up at the front and back of the plywood, to establish a center line.
Now take good stable 2x4 wood to place across the back and front edges of the plywood, perpendicular to the blade. These will be on edge, and have to stand up high enough to be a good inch or more higher than the maximum height of the blade. The back piece is your fence, and must be exactly 90 degrees to your center line. The back piece will run full length of the box (30"), while the front piece can be about half that, to keep the weight down. This front and back wood holds the whole thing together once you cut the plywood bottom entirely in half (which is your final step).
Now you have a box that holds stock at 90 degrees to the blade. What you can do with this is unlimited; I continued to find new ways to use it right up until I quit to become a computer guy. Cut off stock, cut tenon shoulders or any kind of cutting close in to the end of a board, tilt the blade and make angle cuts, put dado cutters in and work with them, but angle and dado cuts mess up the box by making a wider "hole" in the bottom. You can use your saw's fence as a stop for cutting off stock over 15" long, and for shorter stock, this is a really safe way to cut off little pieces to a stop, or to work with little pieces in general.
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: Hank]
10/02/02 08:36 AM
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Hank,
Thanks for the explination. I might just have to model that up at lunch.
Hazmat
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pbenven
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: s1120]
10/02/02 10:15 AM
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The belt-drives also offer smoother power transfer to the blade.
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 10:25 AM
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Well, no need for me to model it up, I found a picture & article on the web.
Benchmark Cross Cut Sled
This guy has lots of other info on his web page too. Being a rookie, I don't know if it's any good.
Hazmat
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Hank
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 12:49 PM
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Well, no need for me to model it up, I found a picture & article on the web.
That's it! This cut-off box, once you start exploring all of the things you can do with it, turns the table saw into a true utility saw.
Mine is slightly different, but the concept is the same. I made the back wood (fence) only as long as the plywood bottom, not hanging over (actually 1/8" or so less, esp. on the right hand end. Also taper the right hand end of the box's bottom plywood about 1/16" smaller at the front. This permits the saw's fence being set right against the box with no binding. I don't like the cut-off box's fence hanging over because of the weight, and you can always tack a strip of wood to the fence for an extension when you need it. (This is also a good reason to use something stable, but soft, like poplar, for the fence...easier to get the nails out).
I also preferred to have the box more centered over the blade, because you often need to work on both sides, so it's handy to have just as much working area on the right.
You can also adjust the size of the box (distance between front and back fences) according to what you might commonly need to cut off. Mine were always big enough to handle a 1x12. Bigger is not necessarily better, because you approach a situation where the front of the box is off the table during or after a cut.
I always used good hardwood for the runners and never had any problems with swelling due to weather changes. The key is to get a good fit to the runners first, before you cut your center line. I made the runners first to be a good tight fit in the grooves, so you have to tap them in; if you make them slide too easily at first, you will absolutely not get them exactly in the right place when you screw them on. Then, after they're on there, use a rabbet plane to ease them off until they slide well, with no slop. Only then mark your centerline with the blade.
For the front wood, only make it half the length of the box, centered over the blade. This permits you to transfer any odd angle from a layout with your bevel square, tack a strip to the bottom that can extend out past the front wood, and use that strip as a temporary fence to make the odd-angled cuts on stock.
Sorry to ramble on. An additional benefit of the cut-off box, in a commercial setting.....we never used the anti-kickback devices on our saws, but had to be on the lookout for OSHA. One of those boxes sitting on top of the saw made it OSHA-legal, because you obviously had to have the anti-kick back thingies folded down to use the box
Haven't had a chance to look at the rest of that web site yet. I'm at home now, with only a dial-up connection, so I'll wait until tomorrow and check it out using work's T3
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beenthere
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: Steelfan]
10/02/02 01:42 PM
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The American Woodworker Oct.'02 issue (#96) has an article on small shop tablesaws. Ed choices are the DeWalt DW746X ($900), the Grizzly G1023 S110 ($800), and "best buys" as Ridgid TS 3612 ($600) and Bridgewood TSC-10CL ($550).
I am currently looking at the DeWalt DW744 ($499) and the Bosch 4000 ($499) for a more portable saw that weighs about 60#. Anyone have either of these two saws, and comments about their satisfaction (or non)?
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: beenthere]
10/02/02 02:06 PM
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beenthere,
I'll try to get my hands on the magazine.
I've been doing some web research on table saws. The Dewalt 744 got good reviews, but is considered pricey for a portable unit.
I can't seem to find the link to it right now
Hazmat
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 02:10 PM
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Found the Dewalt Review Woodnet Bench Top Table Saw Roundup
Hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 03:26 PM
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Fine hombuilding November 2000 No 134 has a review of economnomical table saws.
But from what your initial post said perhaps the hand circular saw set up with clampable guides and a good blade may serve you purpose.
EGON
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beenthere
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 07:16 PM
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Thanks,
That was a good review, and covered the reasons why I was looking at the DeWalt, as well as the reasons I
have not purchased one yet. Still thinking. The $499 prices I quoted were from ToolCrib (Amazon.com) as they
are offering the DeWalt (with stand) for $499, as well as the Bosch with stand, and rear (off bearing) extension
for $499. So the prices are coming down. A plus for the Bosch was an
electronic start-up, to bring the saw blade up to speed without the harsh kick as referred to in the review.
The Bosch had a larger table top than the DeWalt. A sled would likely be good for them both.
But the Bosch didn't have the neat fence that the DeWalt had.
So many decisions. Maybe I will look into the used market.
Edited by beenthere (10/02/02 07:23 PM)
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egon
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: beenthere]
10/02/02 08:19 PM
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DeWalt sells rebuilt tools in Canada. I have a hand planner that was rebuilt and have had no problems with it. $450 new/ $220 rebuilt.
Egon
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AndyF
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/02/02 10:25 PM
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If you really want to buy a saw, take a look at used saws. However, from your post it sounds like you won't be using the saw very much and it might make more sense to find someone who owns a saw who'll do you a favor and cut up some stock for you.
I've purchased most of my woodshop tools used and have yet to have a problem where the tools had hidden defects. Most hobby sized tools don't get a lot of use and they are often put up for sale when the owner switches hobbies or decides that he wants to upgrade. Another advantage to the used route is that you generally don't lose anything when you decide to sell the tool.
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: AndyF]
10/03/02 06:15 AM
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I've also purchased used tools and they have performed well. Look for ones from hobby users as pointed out previously; not professionals since they can be used very hard on job sites and may not show it. Many retirees buy tools and hardly use them. And ususally very good quality too. Expect to pay about half list price.
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pbenven
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: AndyF]
10/03/02 07:30 AM
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Along the same lines as what Andy is saying, A friend and I have an agreement. We keep a list of tools that we have, and whoever is first to have a requirement for a tool not on the list goes and buys it. However, this only works well with people who share the same respect for tools as you.
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: AndyF]
10/03/02 08:05 AM
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If you really want to buy a saw, take a look at used saws. However, from your post it sounds like you won't be using the saw very much and it might make more sense to find someone who owns a saw who'll do you a favor and cut up some stock for you.
I picked up the American Woodworker magazine with the table saw review in it. After reading the review, I read the rest of the magazine & thought to myself, hmm I could do that. I'll try to keep this post on topic so see my new post Woodworking: for Love or Money?
I talked to the wife about the $600 Ridgid saw. She said "Do a cost benifit analysis" I said, I drive two hours and borrow my dad's to get us thru this project. But that gets old fast.
Hazmat
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MikeNC
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: idaho04]
10/03/02 03:11 PM
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I second the vote for Grizzly. Lots of bang for your buck. I put alot of hours on my tools, and if the time comes to upgrade, I'll know that I've got my money's worth out of my Grizzly machine.
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s1120
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Reged: 09/12/02
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: pbenven]
10/06/02 05:19 AM
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Thanks guys for the lesson on belt drive saws. I had never knew that. I figured direct drive was better. Well, I have been wrong before, and I will be wrong agean. Thanks
Paul Bradway
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/24/02 03:29 PM
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Well, got an email from the wife and I quote "Maybe we should just suck it up and buy the saw (but I'm still thinking about it)". Hmmm sounds encouraging.
Going to look at the Jet & Delta contracters models tonight. I've checked out the Ridgid at the Depot, but nobody there can answer any questions
Hazmat
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hazmat
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/25/02 08:53 AM
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Got the Green Light from the CFO last night. Will be picking up the Jet 10" Contractor at Woodworkers Warehouse tonight.
Comparing the Jet & Delta side by side, the Jet's fence was a little sturdier. Jet was also $50 cheaper ($550). Plus Jet has the $100 new equipment/$50 accessory rebate special. Both saws had steel wings in that price range. It would cost about $200 to step up to the cast iron. Maybe someday if my woodworking aspirations take off.
Thanks for all the advice. Armed with good information, my job of getting approval from the CFO is easier.
Hazmat
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pbenven
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Loc: QC, Canada
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/25/02 08:56 AM
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Check this place for some inexpensive table saws. The Craftex brand is thier own and it's pretty good stuff. Not sure about shipping to the US, but couldn't hurt to call - those prices are in CDN.
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Hank
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Re: AFFORDABLE table saws
[re: hazmat]
10/25/02 09:23 AM
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Will be picking up the Jet 10" Contractor at Woodworkers Warehouse tonight.
Kewl, way to go!
One thing we used to do when we got a new saw, or the saws would not be used for a few days (over Christmas, mostly), was to soak the cast iron table with a 50-50 mixture of kerosene and motor oil. This really helps condition them and prevent rusting while they're idle. We'd do this to every cast iron machine surface in the shop.
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