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Handyman
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Stick welding
04/27/03 11:28 AM
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With all this talk about welding and welders, I made a trip to TSC and was looking at the Hobart welders (both mig and stick) when I noticed the welding rods. Upon inspecting them, I saw Aluminum rods 
Has anyone had any experience stick welding aluminum instead of using a mig welder ?
Another question... I've noticed some welder specs show they they are good for 3/16 or 1/4" welds... Am I correct in the assumption that they are talking welds in a single pass. ?
Example Aluminum welders are stating 1/8" ... So if I were to to be welding a 1/4" I could use 3 passes to weld ? Or are they talking maximum depth (penitration) of the weld ?
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/27/03 06:18 PM
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The truth is, they are not speaking welder langauge,at least not my kind.When you are welding two pieces of metal together,you use as many passes as it takes to do this, i.e.,if you are welding 1 inch thick steel to one inch thick steel,by way of a beveled butt joint,and say you are useing 5/32 rod,its going to take you many passes to fill up the joint ,side by side and on top of each other,now as far as the machine,it will have to put out enough amps. to run that 5/32 rod,you can always turn it down to run a1/8 rod.It also depends on what postion you are welding,you can carry more molten metal in the flat postion than you can overhead,thus it should take you less passes.Unless you are doing something like surfaceing[building up the surface by running beads],you are not really going to worry about how thick your bead may be,you are going to run the amps needed for whatever sized filler you are using in order to make an acceptable weld.So worry about amps. and duty cycle when you plan on buying a machine,not how big a bead the machine might make.For instance,you can weld about any thickness of steel,from 1/4 inch[or less if you know what you are doing],to infinity,with a 1/8 dia. stick rod, the thicker it is the more passes its going to take,a 1/8 stick rod uses about 120 amps,+ or -,so you need a stick machine that puts out that much,than you got to worry about duty cycle,if what you are welding is in the infinity range,well you need something that will burn those 1/8 inch rods all day long,100% on the amps you need[in this farout case]. It works in the same manner with a m.i.g. machine. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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Handyman
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Re: Stick welding
[re: gauthier]
04/27/03 08:52 PM
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Ok, you confirmed what I know, but when they (mfg) state 1/8" , 3/16" or 1/4"... Are they talking penitration at maximum amps ?
What about aluminum stick welding ?
I was looking at the Hobart 175 for $600 (not to mention the added expense of gas) and the Hobart stick welder at $250. I noticed that I will need Argon Gas to aluminum weld... But considering that I will need to weld 1/8" to 1/4" aluminum stock on occasions. I was wondering if anyone did any aluminum stick welding with any success ?
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/28/03 03:07 PM
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Like I said before,don't let that incorrect phrasing of it saying 1/4",e.t.c. affect you,the don't know what they are trying to say.READ what I said to you above again. You[if you can weld alu. with a m.i.g.]won't have any problems welding1/2" thick alu.,with most any M.I.G. MACHINE,YOU JUST MAY HAVE TO MAKE MORE THAN ONE PASS.You only want to weld alu. with stick,if you don't have a m.i.g.,sticking alu.is not all that easy and not as an attractive weld as compared with m.i.g. As far as penatration goes,you only need as much as it takes to make two pieces of metal one.As long as your weld is solid,no trapped slag,porosity,e.t.c.,and you have complete fusion at the edges of your weld to your base metal,it does not matter how far into your base metal you have burned,1/16",or1/4",you have made two pieces,one,and thats what welding is all about,basicly. I don,t know of any hobart stick welder for 250 dollars,new?It much not be much. Speaking of welding alu. with stick,I believe you need d.c. electrode postive to do that,most of those cheap buzz boxes only put out a.c. RICHARD GAUTHIER p.s I'm glad I confirmed what you [already know],huh,huh.
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Handyman
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Re: Stick welding
[re: gauthier]
04/29/03 12:12 AM
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Richard, I know how to weld stick and the theory of welding... thank you very much.
What I don't know and lack any experience in, is Alum welding and/or mig welding. The welding (20 yrs ago) I did was with commercial welders and NOT these hobby boxes that is sold to the general public.
Now since I'm thinking of buying a welder for repairs and small projects, I'm trying to find something that will suit my needs without spending a $1000 for something that will sit in the corner most of the time. So since I have no experience with migs, I was inquiring about alum stick welding... if its even worth the bother. That is why I was asking what they were talking about with the 1/8,3/16,1/4"
I guess I'm going to be stuck buying a mig welder since I need quality alum welds (I'm sure it will take lots of practice on my part first) 
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/29/03 12:43 AM
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Also,you got to keep in mind that there are different kinds of joints,butt,tee,lap,and different kinds of weld joint designs,v-groove,sguare groove,fillit and many more.Now if you are running a fillit weld on a lap or t joint,you generally try to put a weld on that is no larger than the thinnest of your two base metals.You can use more than one pass to do this if your first pass isn't big enough,i.e.,1" plate to 1/2" plate,by stringing or by weaveing. Another thought,a certain sized filler metal,will only operate with acceptable results,within a certain range of amps. and volts,so you can take a 1/8" stick rod,0n a 1/4" plate,turn that machine up to about 180 amps. d.c.e.p,and you can make a very big hole real quick.Talk about penatration.Penatration depends on many factors,type of and how much current,type of filler,and when m.i.g. welding,one of the chief ways,is the type and mixture of shieding gas.Penatration also means different things,depending on what type of joint you are welding,if you are welding a pipe joint,with a v-groove prep.,than penatration on that joint refers to the inside of the pipe at the root[if you got it or not,how much,and if both inside edges are fused.].So when these welding machine litature descriptions say will weld 1/4" thick stuff,you see,it doesn't mean a lot in describing that machine.If you want a machine to weld both alu. and steel ,and you just want one machine, get a m.i.g. machine,with as much amps. and the best duty cycle you can afford,and hook up,[input juice wise].Yes you will need to change gas,wire,drive rollers and probably go with a different liner in your wire conduit,to weld alu. and then spend time setting up your machine after each time you change from steel to alu.,but that is the way it goes. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/29/03 12:56 AM
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I'm sure you do know much about this welding stuff,it sure sounded like it to me anyways.How long you been driving trucks?I've been in this welding racket for about 26 years,SORRY TO HAVE INSULTED YOUR WELDING KNOWLEGE. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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egon
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Re: Stick welding
[re: gauthier]
04/29/03 05:22 AM
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Richard:
I think there are many out there who have appreciated the welding knowledge you and some others have been giving in your posts.
There is a lot more than to it than strike an arc and run a bead. You fellows have been bringing this out for all our benefit.
Thanks.
Egon
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: egon]
04/29/03 08:45 AM
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Thanks egon,I'll keep pluging along every now and than,my advice on this welding stuff is free,and I don't do that to many other places. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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Gary_in_Indiana
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/29/03 10:45 AM
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First, I can be of zero help on the aluminum question. 
On another topic, though, I can tell you that I have a little Hobart 175 MIG welder which claims 1/4" and that refers to a single pass. In the case of my particular machine, it specifically states that in so many words--"Capable of welding up to 1/4" in a single pass." I would assume that's pretty much standard as the way they are 'rated.'
I would have to assume that aluminum is done the same way. I'm guessing that something listing 1/8" aluminum is referring to the ability to weld 1/8" in a single pass.
If you were to be welding 1/4" aluminum you could certainly use multiple passes with a 1/8" rated machine. You might be able to get it with three passes but, being the kind of guy who wears a belt with suspenders, I'd probably lay down six passes just to be sure. Just remember that with multiple passes (three, six, ten, fifteen, twenty-one... whatever), the first pass is always going to be the most important. That's the one that directly bonds the two pieces. 
Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps.
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Gary_in_Indiana
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/29/03 11:01 AM
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Just a couple notes on the Hobart 175 I thought I'd share with you. While the Hobart 175 Handler is a 220V MIG welder, you can run it on a 30 amp breaker and wire from that to your outlet with only 10/2 wire. I got this directly from Hobart and wanted to pass it on to you as most 220V welders require a 50 amp breaker and a heavier gauge wire to the outlet. While I don't think this is anything upon which to base a purchase decision, I thought it was something you might like to know.
Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps.
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CJDave
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Gary,......that business of running on a 30 AMP circuit as opposed to a 50 AMP is true when you go to wire feed welders. When I first got my Miller wire feed machine we were sharing a single outlet with the stick welder. One day I was in a hurry do do some wire welding and the stick machine was busy, plugged into the "welder" outlet. I took the Miller welder primary lead across the shop and plugged into a 20AMP outlet we had for the hacksaw, and welded for an hour or more on that 20 AMP breaker with no trip. Of course I wasn't really at the top end of the heat range, but still......  Regarding material thicknesses.......when you are welding two pieces of material, you have to be able to put enough heat into the area to "FUSE" the metal. No matter how many passes you make, if the material is taking the heat away too fast, you'll never get good penetration and a good joint. Remember that the FIRST PASS is the one that hooks to the parent material, if you don't have enough heat for that pass, you're screwed anyway. I've run into this with stick welders; where the mtal was SO THICK that I couldn't get enough heat built up to really burn my weld in there like it needed to be. A large cross-section will transport so much heat away from your weld that you just cannot get the puddle to really be good and hot like it needs to be.  Multiple passes are only effective if you can "re-puddle" to a certain extent. Running beads on top of beads that aren't burned in sufficiently may not hold very well.
CJDave
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Handyman
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Re: Stick welding
[re: CJDave]
04/30/03 12:01 AM
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Excellent responses guys.. Thanks
Most all my questions have been answered and I've decided to get the Hobart 175  However, today I was forced to buy a welding torch kit (on sale $99), a set of 80# tanks ($325)
A lot of the things I need to do are repairs which some invlove cutting and the couple things that need mending right now I believe I can braze (sp?) since there won't be any direct stress on it. However I will need a welder in the near future.
BTW Richard, I have been trucking in one form or another for 18 yrs and owned my truck & trailer for the last 7 yrs. (paid for). I do specialized hauling (machinery,equipment, military & oversized) on a dropdeck. So as you see... I'm not your average dummy.. LOL 
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CJDave
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/30/03 09:05 AM
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Dear Handy Plus Man,.....write these numbers on your shop wall: Cut: 40 Oxy & 8 Acet. Weld: 33 Oxy & 13 Acet. Those are the necessary regulator settings. One more tip....when using a rosebud, start with 33/13 on the settings, and then once the tip is going, open the mixer valves full open and regulate the flame by adjusting the tank regulators. If you have cheapie regulators or very small ones, don't be surprised if the Oxy frosts up a bit on big rosebud work. BE SURE to have backfalsh valves in the system. I like the ones that go out at the end of the hose......gives me something to hang onto while I adjust the mixer valves.
CJDave
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: CJDave]
04/30/03 09:40 AM
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I have never heard it explained in quite that way before there C.J., you be carefull out there. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
04/30/03 09:48 AM
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I'm glad to hear from you HANDYMAN.I am aware of the fact that you are no average dummy.One question I have is what the hell does BTW mean? I wanted to know because I might want to use it sometime.Don't run over any little cars. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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Bird
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Re: Stick welding
[re: gauthier]
04/30/03 11:39 AM
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BTW = by the way
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Gary_in_Indiana
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Re: Stick welding
[re: CJDave]
04/30/03 11:54 AM
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Dave,
That explanation of fusing the metals and getting them up to the temperatures needed to do so was excellent. I felt like I was reading a text of what my welding instructor told us. Thanks for saying what I should have.  I'm still very much on the low end of the learning curve here. I knew it, I just didn't think to pass it along. It's probably just as well. Your explanation was far better than anything I'd have written.
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gauthier
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GARY,you are new to this welding stuff. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Bird]
04/30/03 06:12 PM
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BTW BIRD,thankyou.See I'm learning stuff today. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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Handyman
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Re: Stick welding
[re: CJDave]
04/30/03 07:12 PM
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CJDave, Your info is wonderful. Thank You.
The booklet that came wirth the kit recomended slightly lower psi settings (which I used) and noticed that the torch was not blowing as hard as I thought it should and the rosebud... wow, that thing was a trip to use..lol (never used one before).
It's been since the mid 80's since I had to do any cutting or bending, it plum wore me out today, but I got everything done that I have been needing done to my trailer for a long long time 
Tomorow I will attempt to repair the chain box on my headacke rack on the truck (alum). This should be fun.. LOL
OK, another dumb question...
3 welding / brazing tips... How do you know which one to use ?
I was plannig on using the smallest one with my Alum repair since the thickness is aprox 1/8" (maybe slightly less) thick. (corner bead)
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CJDave
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
05/01/03 07:11 PM
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I can't help you on the alum-nee-um weld question, but on mild steel and stuff like exhaust pipe, if you are using a tip that is too big, when you try and squeeze down the flame to where you can use it the tip will POP back and go out. THEN you go to a size smaller.
CJDave
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
05/01/03 09:12 PM
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Now of course,as we already know,I'm not planning on insulting your welding knowledge,because we know that you are no average dummy.Smaller tip,less fire,less fire,less heat,so on something an 1/8",I'd start small,but alu.,untill it gets hot takes a good bit of heat,because it is a good conductor,I've mainly just m.i.g.ed it,some t.i.g.,never tried oxyfuel welding of alum.Plus you got to clean it good,that skin ,oxide,on it melts at a much higher temp. than the alum. it self,as does the shiny mill coat on steel,but on alum. this is even more important,power brush or heavy hand brush with aclean or new brush till you see the stuff coming off,also you might want to clean any whatever off it before brushing with alcohol.Than you'll just have to watch your heat because as you go the metal will get hotter,it would be nice if you had some scrap to practice on before you gobed up your truck,I know,I know,you are not your........ WATCH THEM LITTLE CARS. RICHARD GAUTHIER
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Handyman
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Re: Stick welding
[re: gauthier]
05/01/03 10:00 PM
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Richard (dick), Can you every make a reply without being so Condescending ? 
I find it a real shame that a man with your knowledge would work so hard on showing his arrogance on here. I, as well as others here are getting tired of the holier than thou attitude.
Myself as well as many here, come here to learn and find answers to questions (tips) to make life a little easier..
Why are you here ?
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gauthier
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Re: Stick welding
[re: Handyman]
05/01/03 11:09 PM
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I'm here for the same reason you are,truckdriver,to pick up on some stuff that I don't know,but every body else gives advice in areas that they are knowlegeable in.take you for example,your a truck driver you say,well if I ever need a question answered about driving trucks,I would hope people like you would answer it in the same kindly manner I tried to do with you,in the beginning about welding,something I happen to know something about,I don't do it for a hobby,just like you don,t drive truck for a hobby.Now if you want to have private conversations with whoever about whatever,there is e-mail,I would never e-mail somebody on this forum.But if your on here your words will be read by whoever and if they want to respond its afree country,right?Now, since I HAVE EVIDENTLY UPSET YOU.I promise never to respond directly to your postings again,but YOUR certainly not going to keep me from responding to other people whenever I got a mind to.got it? watch those little cars,your friend, RICHARD GAUTHIER
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