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BrianP
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How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
09/19/02 11:49 AM
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While I admit I'm not very poilitically correct at the best of times, I have to admit that I don't understand the opposition to home schooling.
My wife and I have 3 univiersity degrees between us, etc., etc., and I think my wife is a great teacher (even our 4 1/2 years old reads in 2 languages).
The way I see it:
1) Public school is a least common denominator type situation: the kids get taught at the rate of the slowest kid in the class
2) Based on what we witnessed when we had a kid in public school, certain teachers don't necessarily know how to teach (even though that doesn't seem to cost them their jobs)
3) 'State sanctioned thinking' regarding morals, religion, and so on is a non-so subtle subtext to the whole curriculum
4) Bullying, harassment, etc., are big problems that are getting worse
5) I promise to choke the next teacher I hear blather on about attention deficit disorder. I read recently that up to 20% of children in some schools are medicated. Somehow that scares me more than dope: at least illegal drug users have a choice.
Recently my oldest came home and told me all about a neighbour who was complaining about how are kids are homeschooled. I told him everybody has a right to an opinion, they just don't have a right to share it with me.
Any comments? Why do people care how my children are being taught.
Brian
ps: Not ot brag, but our oldest child, who was mostly homeschooled, recently started univiersity. He spent the last 3 years going to high school because we figured he needed marks to get into a good university. He did: he is the only person from his high school to get into the computer science faculty at waterloo, considered one of the worlds best comp sci schools. Obviously, my wife's teaching wasn't all that bad.
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Gatorboy
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/19/02 11:53 AM
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In reply to:
Why do people care how my children are being taught
In a word: Jealousy
:: D A V E
:: g a t o r b o y
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RMeadows
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/19/02 12:13 PM
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The bigest thing I hear is the social issue. Teaching kids to get along or social skill. I am hear to tell you as a father of 3 home schooled girls (and one more coming) socialaztion is not the problem. Monday Open, Tuesday- PE, Wed - AWANA Clubs and jr high group, Thurday - Choir, Friday - Band, ARt, and 4-H. Spread in the week - Tae Kwon Do, praise team for church, horse lessions.
Heck, if we sent them to public school, what would we do with all our time.
Roger
ps - not to brag either, but my oldest entering sixth grade just tested out at a 12th grade level in all expect math. In math she only tested out at 9th grade.... 
pps - as you can see, I don't teach spelling! My wife does 
Roger Meadows
TiAnViCa Ranch
Mulberry, Florida
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Tractorgirl
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: RMeadows]
09/19/02 07:45 PM
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I have to agree with you. Socialization is the cited reason for public schooling. My comeback on that tends to be "I want my children to learn not socialize." Prior to 1925 when John Dewey introduced socialism, education had been in good standing in this country. The 8th graders were able to do what we would now consider college work. When Dewey brought his ideas, the dumbing down of our schools started. We teach more social issues then meaningful education. Our standardized tests have been "dumbed" down in order for students to meet the standards students years ago scored. Our students now are taught "touchy feely" math and to spell by how the word sounds. The schools have taken upon themselves to provide "sex" education which is only a veiled attempt to promote alternative lifestyles though studies have never been conclusive. The list could go on forever.
I admit, I give those who question homeschooling the above reasons why we do homeschool. They generally go away with food for thought. Once they see that my children are much more advanced than theirs, they understand.
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BrianP
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Tractorgirl]
09/20/02 11:11 AM
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Its interesting that the reasons to send kids to school seems to have less and less to do with learning things like reading, writing, math, science, etc., and more and more to do with touchy feely things like socialization and so forth.
I agree with you, Tractorgirl, I really don't want our kids kids to know how to socialize, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with our kids, as RMeadows said. Could it be that children don't need 'professional' help to learn how to make friends? What a radical thought!
I actually don't mind the exposure to alternative points of view, sex ed, etc., because this stuff will come up one way or the other. But then I completely understand how some people wouldn't share my point of view - which probably explains why I'll never run a school system.
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Tractorgirl
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/20/02 12:29 PM
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I don't mind my children being exposed to alternative lifestyles, theories, etc. but as parent I want to be the one to present the information to them. If they see a subject on tv, I want to be involved discussing what they've seen and heard. I greatly desire for my kids to be able to critically think through material based on their worldview rather than just believing what is handed to them. 
Now its time for me to chill out as this subject does get my dander up!
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knucklehead
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Tractorgirl]
09/20/02 12:55 PM
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Shoulda been over on TBN when we went into this.....but then again, we hit the PS system pretty hard, and there's a lotta good teachers out there.
Anyone doing things differently is a challenge to those who accept the status quo, and it's easier to criticize than to change.
Keep yer dander up!
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Haz
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/20/02 05:37 PM
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We have been homeschooling for about 10 years and we have heard that one about socialization about a zillion times. Anyway, after a while we just learned to ignore it along with the people in the checkout line who would always ask my wife who had brought the children with her to the grocery store, "Are these all yours?" ( We have seven children, by the way). And then the statement, "That's enough kids, you really don't need to have anymore". Interestingly I (the husband) got a different comment, "Can't you control yourself?" It still astounds me how people who have been "socialized" in public schools are so rude. Anyway we have accepted the fact that homeschooling and having a large family is not popular nor politically correct but we are very happy and love our family and children. It is also funny how we don't get too many rude comments anymore. I'm not sure why but we certainly don't mind.
Keep on homeschooling, it's the best!
Haz and Kathi
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Youare
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/20/02 08:43 PM
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My wife taught our three kids at home for several years. The rest of the time they went to a Christain school where she also taught. Our children were in elementary school durning their home taught years.
Durning that age our kids were able to and enjoyed holding a conversation with any adult. Socialization was not a problem for any of them then or today. We figured if they could interface with adults in a respectful intellegent manner they were able to socialize with their peers.
Today my oldest is in college, second year and has made the Dean's list the whole time. This year he was granted a full scholarship buy the college, not because of sports either.
As with most matters you as a parent are the best judge of your child and their development. Why should we let those who have not seen our children make the asumption that they are socially maladjusted?
For those of you who take the responsibility of raising up their children keep up the good work. My wife teaches at a small Christian school and this year I leave work for a little more than an hour four days a week to teach the Junior and Senior high class their first period Bible class.
The only hope for the next generation is for them to know the Truth. There are many good public school teachers out there my mother was one for over 20 years, but there are a few bad apples in the barrel.
Randy
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s1120
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/22/02 05:50 AM
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I promise to choke the next teacher I hear blather on about attention deficit disorder. I read recently that up to 20% of children in some schools are medicated. Somehow that scares me more than dope: at least illegal drug users have a choice.
That is one thing that has always gotten me. I am not, nor will I ever be a homeschooler, but I do know the importance of teaching your child. Some parents seem to just let there kids go wild, and say the schools will take care of them. Thats where this ADD comes from IMHO. Where is my child will be going to a public school,[a good one] she will also be taught at home.[Mom will take care of the spelling.  ] I belive school will be a base that a parent has to build on. Not a stand alone education.
Paul Bradway
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tenebrous
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/23/02 04:22 PM
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Hi Brian,
I am a retired educator and I do believe that students can be home schooled successfully. Your family is living proof of that. There are situations that I have seen where the family does not provide a good education. It just doesn't get done and the kids end up coming to a public school years behind in some areas while years ahead in others. Again there are good home schooling situations and there are bad.
As for the socialization of the children that will take care of itself if the child is involved in activities with others their age. What is a concern to me is that many times these children are not exposed to the opinions of others and find it difficult to see another person's point of view. In my experience these home schooled students tend not to listen to opinions that differ from what they have been taught directly and by example. They will just shut down in a discussion and withdraw. It is not socialization that is lacking, it is an intellectual aggressiveness. I don't mean they don't argue well. They seem not want to challenge someone's position or opinion in a group situation.
My experience is at the high school level where these students have been home schooled through grade eight. When they enter the high school, they really adjust well. If the parents are willing to spend the time then the children will be successful. It takes dedication and planning to provide a good home schooling situation.
While not home schooled, our son was taught most of the basic skills by his mother. He was very ill up to the time he entered fourth grade and missed more school than he attended. In effect it was a 50% home schooling situation for him. That may well have been more difficult than doing it full time. His mother had no training or college degree but there was a drive to make sure her son did not fall behind. To this day he is a voracious reader because he and his mother would have to research information instead of a teacher just presenting the facts to him. It is strange how we discover such simple applications of learning by necessity.
Now to answer your question. Many parents are very happy to see their children head off to school. It is a good option for day care. Those parents just cannot understand why you would want to teach your children. Now let us take this a little further. There are too many parents that have no interest in teaching their children much at all. I think you may see where this is going. Education does create a lot of its own problems but the fact of the matter is that many parents are not preparing their children to be successful in school. I will make another observation that some parents do not care if their child is successful in school. It just doesn't matter to them. So their thinking is why on earth would you care so much about your child's education that you would work many, many hours each week to that end.
You both have done a wonderful job educating your children and should be congratulated.
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tlphlps
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Haz]
09/24/02 07:42 AM
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Bless You, Haz! We have 7 children and have home schooled them exclusively!
We have recently moved and just found a church we feel led to join. We visited last evening with the pastor whose wife and daughter are involved in public school teaching. There are 3 other families in the church that home school also and those families have been there about a year. The pastor and his wife both very enthusiastically support home schooling now. Also his daughter has a young child and is now planning to home school! He said the key to their change-of-heart regarding homeschooling was seeing the results in these other families and ours. The children are well behaved, interact well with adults & children, and obviously don't have problems academically.
I find most people that object are ignorant of the results and have the idea that we are hurting rather than helping our children.
Years ago, our former church pastor said, " Our job as parents is to train our children to be adults, not children ". That is one of the best statements I have ever heard anyone make! Children will be childish, children will play, children will be "kids", no matter what - the need is for them to learn to be adults! That does not come from peer pressure in a public school setting!
Bless you all for the courage and desire to train your children academically, socially, and spiritually at home!
Terry, Holly, Taylor, Hannah, David, Mindy, Michael, Sara and Carter (and I do know their birthdays! )
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BrianP
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: tenebrous]
09/24/02 12:38 PM
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Wow tenebrous, a long and well reasoned comment!
And I agree with it. I have had bad experiences with some teachers, and good experiences with others. My wife is a fantastic teacher, and some other parents would make lousy teachers either because they don't know any better, or don't care. Judging from the level of ignorance I encounter on a day by day basis either directly or through the media I find it its astonishing to find out how little most people know about most things ranging from history to geography to science and politics. Most people don't even read books on a regular basis!
So I figure if any institutional should be held suspect it is 'formal' education, not home schooling.
In a way, I guess I've answered my own question and agreed with you: most 'anti home schollers' probably know nothing about home schooling, but they don't let that get in the way of their bias against it!
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JoeR
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: tenebrous]
09/26/02 07:08 PM
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In reply to:
What is a concern to me is that many times these children are not exposed to the opinions of others and find it difficult to see another person's point of view.
Unfortunately, there are numerous educators who will inflict their opinion upon the students. I have seen this at the University level too.
I clearly remember in high school discussing the use of the Atom Bomb during WWII. I told the teacher that I thought it was a good idea that the U.S. used the weapon to shorten the war. That was not the response the teacher wanted to hear, and she started yelling at me! While in college, one of my professors started a discussion about politics. He asked if there were any republican supporters in the room, some students raised their hands and he belittled them!
It seems that the education system has become like the media... Extremely liberal and BIASED.
Sadly, once these idiots make tenure, you can get rid of them.
Joe
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tenebrous
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: JoeR]
09/26/02 08:07 PM
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Joe, the opinions I referred to were those of other students. I do not know when you were in high school and college but I attended both in the sixties. I too had professors mostly that used their classrooms as podiums for their own political opinion.
In todays public schools, teachers should be leading the discussion without exhibiting any bias. The opinions again should come from the students and their studies. We both know that we do not live in a perfect world and some individuals will always use a position to press their own agenda.
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Pat
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: tenebrous]
09/26/02 09:31 PM
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tenebrous, I have to say, I read this whole thread and think the home schoolers acquitted themselves well. Also to anyone who would cast stones at all the misspellings, anyone who consistently spells a word the same way isn't misspelling it, they are employing an alternative spelling.
Maybe you will appreciate this annecdote: I was in an upper division physics class (modern thermodynamics mumbo jumbo about bosons or something) back about '68 when there was significant campus unrest, anti-war protests, picketing of DOW chemical recruitment efforts, guerilla theater with bullhorns performed by SDS (Students for Democratic Society, some kind of communist youth front) Anyway this Bozo interrupted our studies of bosons, with the instructors permission, to ask the classes permission to lecture us on socially prominent political issues of importance to the SDS. With no debate or side comments, about 3/4 of the class got up and headed for the disrupter who headed for the door. Order was restored in about 15 seconds and class resumed. Seems his BS was a hard sell on the "hard science" side of the campus. On the "social studies" Marxist Lenninist side of the campus more time was spent preparing for protests and participating than conducting legitimate studies.
Now it seems that high schools and even middle schools and grade schools are the seed beds for growing our own PC mind numbed little robots whose greatest critical thinking involves what snack food to eat. I think the greatest inquisition should not be aimed at parents who prefer to home school but at parents who are willing to "Public School", given the facts surrounding the average high school education which yields a high school graduate who has a diploma that proves little beyond attendance.
Ian Shoals is due, I gotta go.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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tenebrous
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Pat]
09/27/02 12:58 PM
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Order was restored in about 15 seconds and class resumed. Seems his BS was a hard sell on the "hard science" side of the campus. On the "social studies" Marxist Lenninist side of the campus more time was spent preparing for protests and participating than conducting legitimate studies.
Hi Pat,
At about the same time I had the following experience. I was a math/ physics major and was married and a little older than the average students. I had made several friends at the college that had served in South East Asia and now were continuing their education.
On one beautiful fall day one classroom building was blockaded by protesters. Our group, about fifteen vets and others who wanted to enter the building gathered a short distance away. We approached the group that was blocking the front door and three walls wearing football jackets block us from entering. One of our group just quietly said "Six months ago we were killing people, now we want to get through. The looks on the faces of the protesters were priceless. They parted and we entered the building. We were followed by over a hundred other students.
I think the greatest inquisition should not be aimed at parents who prefer to home school but at parents who are willing to "Public School", given the facts surrounding the average high school education which yields a high school graduate who has a diploma that proves little beyond attendance.
Pat, there are always the people who want to dumb down a curriculum but there are more teachers and parents who want the best education possible for their students. As far as blaming parents that home school that would be the farthest from my feelings. Anyone that is willing to spend the time necessary to educate their children at home is deserving of my help and support. Many home schoolers in my home district used materials that I prepared and used in my own classroom. I shared these because we should all be going in the same direction and educating children.
I just remember what an eighty year old neighbor told me as I was about to start my first teaching job. "The good students will do well with a poor teacher but the best teacher will not find sucess with a student that does not care. You need to make them care anyway you can." She had taught for forty-five years befroe retiring.
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Hydraman
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
09/28/02 06:35 PM
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Just my $.02 worth. I've got a nieghbor and dear friend that has home-schooled all 8 of his children, 3 of whom are still at home. He schooled them from grades 1-12 . The eldest finished college. Went on to grad school at U. of Minn. , got a law degree, passed his bar, got a commission in the Navy; and is now a prosecutor in the naval JAG corps. His second had graduated gollege; went to a Seminary in Boston, and is now working in the mission field. No.s 3,4 &5 are currently enrolled in college and doing just fine. So by this example, the home schoolers do OK. Keep it up!!!!!
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Ranchman
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: knucklehead]
09/30/02 06:27 PM
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For anyone who is curious as to the thread that Knucklehead was referring to, here it is. Kuncklehead & I went on for quite a while, so read at your own risk! (or make sure you have had plenty of rest before starting!)
Although I'd be labeled as of the "anti-home schoolers" by the vast majority of folks here, I post this link only as a "service" to help see some insight in to one of "those" people, not to enter in to the conversation per se (I'm happy with my arguments as they stand over there on TBN - and I'm smart enough to know when I'm outnumbered too!  .)
Anyway, Enjoy!
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cowboydoc
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
10/03/02 08:53 AM
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I couldn't agree with you more on all counts Brian.
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Hydraman
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: tlphlps]
10/03/02 10:47 AM
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I'll say an AMEN to training our children to be ADULTS--- They already know how to be children!!! I will also add that NO-ONE has the right to undermine the moral values that parents teach their children -- even if they ( the teachers) themselves don't think that morals are just relative! If a public school teacher cannot keep his or her yap shut about things like this ; then they should have their certificate pulled!!!
This even carries over to the indocrination center (college) level!! If these anti-American professors can't keep their stupid ideas to themselves (while collectring a Gov't paycheck;I.E. my tax dollars) the same applies. The irate town folk used to tar and feather ding-a ling teachers that tried to undermine their own teachings!!
Maybe we need to resort to some of the old ways!!Bye now!! Y'all have a nice day!!
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Bayrat
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
10/07/02 07:24 PM
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All I can say to you and to the rest of the good people of your ilk Brian is God Bless You. Perhaps this is how our future can be salvaged and the ideals this country was founded upon preserved. I can recall back as far as the Sixth grade having teachers that tried to impose their political beliefs on the class. It was the Kennedy/Nixon contest and one of them held a mock election in the classroom. If you did not vote for Kennedy, his man, you were put down in front of the rest of the group. I was one of the few that did not agree with his line of thinking and paid for it at at young age. I can only imagine what it is like in public "school" now.
Bayrat
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MDSteve
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
10/09/02 02:28 PM
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I think this topic has two sides. One side you have parents teaching the kids above average grade level. That is great and if my wife and I could not have her work that's what I would have. The opposite is also true about parents teaching. The children are behind in reading and math. I only know of two families who home school and they show opposite results. One has middle school kids that are developing their own video games. The other children are not advancing well. I am sure home schooling and public school is only as good as the teachers. I went to the so called worst public high school in my county. We had some problems but I was lucky and my teachers cared. If I stayed home from school (or skipped school) I would get a call from my math teacher making sure everything was alright and asked if I was going to be in school the next day. I guess she was one of the teachers who cared about her students.
I hope I didn't upset anyone. I still think it is all about the teachers.
Steve
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Hydraman
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Reged: 09/28/02
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: MDSteve]
10/09/02 09:14 PM
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I guess I should clarify a few things on my position.
1. The PARENTS are to be the primary teachers in any child's life and education process, whether at home or in the Government school. If the parents fail to do their jobs, then the GOOD teachers don't have much to work with.
2. The teachers job is merely to reinforce what the Parent is teaching; never to undermine what a responsible parent is teaching.
3. ALL education hinges on whether the parent succeds or fails at their job!
4. Now I will really get radical!! DADDY, you are the PRIMARY educator in the home. The children learn by watching and mimicking YOU!!!! I know, I can already hear the screaming and yelling at me, but that's OK.
I guess that if I were raising my kids now, I would want to monitor EVERYTHING that they are learning. The only way that I can see doing this is to do it MYSELF. I think children are too precious to entrust them to a stranger, who may not have anywhere near my value system!!!
Edited by Hydraman (10/09/02 09:16 PM)
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Haz
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Reged: 09/20/02
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Hydraman]
10/10/02 12:35 AM
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Many good points have been made on this thread about the educational process. I have found that education is a unique process to the teacher and student. If either one is lacking in motivation or abilities, then the entire process becomes a tedious and stressful excercise. I have one child who would not and probably could not read until he was eight years old. Now he reads although somewhat reluctantly at age ten. Someone might say that it was my fault, but fortunately I had previously taught both of my older daughters to read at age 5. My son just wasn't ready to read when he was six. I am so glad that we did not place him in public school as he would have been labeled as a child with a learning disability. He recently took some tests required by our state in 3rd grade and did well (about 75th percentile) in language arts and reading. I was pleasantly surprised with his results and I expect him to continue to improve. His motivation has improved and we have noticed his confidence in his abilities as a student has also increased. He loves art and draws many pictures of wildlife and birds so this is probably where his real talents lie. I have to give a lot of credit for his improvement to some of our close friends who have been homeschooling longer than we have, who gave us advice about reading and development and probably saved us from making some poor choices.
Haz
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