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porqupine
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
01/10/04 05:12 PM
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Hey Brian,
Up here in the NEK we treat 'em just like any anti, anti-hunters, Anti-gunners, anti,anti anti. Just ignore them. You will never convince them of anything. Instead concentrate your efforts on the education of your family and friends. Carry around a copy of a book I read called "The Dumbing Down of America". It was very persuasive in our decision to Homeschool.
People who wish to take something away from someone else merely because they do not understand it's usefulness are dangerous.
But be careful about this, in your post you said you felt qualified to be homeschoolers because of your level of education. I would submit that anyone who cares about the betterment of their child can successfully homeschool.
We have a total of 13 years of higher education my wifes 4 degrees including a PhD in Organometallic Chemistry and an MBA and my lowly BS, and I tell you this I learn from my kids every day.
And another thing never say "Public School" again. Call them what they are Government Schools!
Cadillac Tony
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TobyToo
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
02/11/04 05:39 PM
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Being a teacher, I knew I should not have clicked on this thread. I knew it would raise my blood pressure. And yes, I am here to agree, and disagree with several of you. The real issue is not of education, but tolerance...and I don't mean of the nefarious lifestyles that some of you seem to think lurk inside the walls of public schools, but of your own intolerence. You have systematically lumped all teacher into one categorey and all parents into another. That is unfounded and unfair. Not all parents are well skilled or learned enough to teach their own children. There are parents in this country who can't even raise their own children, let alone educate them. Next, you have the families that are well intended, but misguided. Education is not as easy as teaching students foundation knowledge...that is the lowest form of thinking on Bloom's Taxonomy of Learning, synthesis and application of knowledge are more difficult to learn and teach and require skill and practice.
Finally, there are the families that do have the skills and knowledge to teach their children at home. I have no problem with those families because...those kids perform and learn reguardless of the circumstances.
I could not believe some of the misinformation about public schools and public school teachers as well. I am highly offended that I have been lumped into a category of ill-educated, evolution pushing individuals! I am a National Board Certified Teacher in middle childhood education. I have a Bachelor's degree in elementary education, a Master's in literacy and reading intervention, and a Phd. in curriculum development. I continually strive to improve the quality of education for the students of my PUBLIC school classroom. I do not teach to the lowest common denominator. I create tiered lessons for individual students and differentiate my instruction all day. I include lessons for multiple intelligence and learning style preferrences. I provide free before and after school tutoring for my at-risk students. I consider my students in every decision I make.
Am I the exception? Not in my PUBLIC school district. I am the norm.
Are there bad teachers that deserve to be fired? Yes, but you name me one profession where there isn't a person that sullies that profession.
Are there young inexperienced teachers? Yes, but you were once a young inexperienced parent too.
Are there old, tired teachers? Yes, but again, this happens in every profession.
Does it excuse it? No, but life is about learning to adapt. You adapt to new situations and circumstances daily and this is part of the adaption process.
The bottom line is that the world is filled with differences. What is best for one student is not best for another. Is homeschooling best for everyone? No. Is public school best for everyone? No. That is why their is a choice, an option, an adaptation. Because no one person is the same and therefore should not be cast into a category with a label.
PS: To know my feelings on ADHD, please read any book available by Jon Rosemond. Also, please note that the majority of people listed on the "Famous Homeschooled Lists" are from prior to the 1950. Just an interesting pattern.
Edited by TobyToo (02/11/04 05:46 PM)
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fivestring
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: porqupine]
02/12/04 07:44 AM
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"Carry around a copy of a book I read called "The Dumbing Down of America"."
I knew about the 'dumbing down" but didn't know there was a book on it! That's now on my "to buy" list.
And another thing never say "Public School" again. Call them what they are Government Schools!"
AMEN.
Gary
Bluegrass Music ...
Finger-pickin' good!
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beenthere
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: TobyToo]
02/12/04 10:57 AM
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TobyToo
You sound like one of the excellent teachers. Proud of you.
Now, I can agree with your points, and would strongly suggest that the teachers unions get involved with improving the system aroound your strong points. They are (IMO) the root of the evil of our teaching system, protecting the non-doers, and keeping the top teachers down to a lower average level.
The teachers unions, as most unions, could work to improve their members' situations, help the teachers improve, and get monetary awards for their accomplishments. But instead they spend thier money trying to get more liberals elected, which dumbs down the entire system to a lower and lower level as the years tick by. The handwriting is on the wall for all to see.
Edited by beenthere (02/12/04 03:40 PM)
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BrianP
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: TobyToo]
02/12/04 03:29 PM
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Sorry you took offense. I am sure you are a good teacher. I had some good teachers too, I have also had at least one psycho (subsequently fired for indiscretions with a minor), at least one overt racist, and a number of folks who were plainly idiot. My oldest son had the pleasure of a teacher who took me to task because my wife took her religion seriously.
These may be anomalies, but, in the context of lowest common denominator education, teachers using students as pawns for better salaries, and, quite frankly and education based more on the needs of government than the needs of the kids, we are a strictly do it yourself family.
I guess, my point was: you want to send your kids to state schools, fine. I don't like that I have to pay for it, but hey, thats the way you want it.
But if we want to educate our own children, butt out!
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TobyToo
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
02/12/04 07:07 PM
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I stated that I felt each individual should have the right to do what they felt was best for their child. I do not disput the fact that home schooling is the best answer for some families. However, if we are going to compare apples to apples, it is only fair that home schooled children be held accountable for the same standards as state schools. That means passing the state- wide tests, while taking the test in a test-centered environment...not a child-centered one. If your home-schooled child can do that...great. If not, you should lose your job as an educator.
Some of the problems that plague statewide schools, also plague home schooling...there are horrendous examples of abuse and neglect that are covered up due to the fact that the child was being home schooled. Is this the norm? No...but it does exist. Should all home schoolers be judged because of a twisted few? No. Yet it seems that ALL teachers are condemned for the actions of a minority group.
I would also like to address the "Dumbing Down of America." Most parents that have children in our school, cannot believe the expectation level of the teachers for the students. For example, today, my fourth graders had to read three separate nonfiction pieces on the legislative branch of the federal government, compare and contrast the information, and then write a page summary of their findings. Reading is more than reading a book and answering text-level questions. Yet that type of reading and reciting facts is what most parents think of as reading...because that is what we did in school. Students are being asked to perform much harder tasks at an earlier age in most statewide schools...if this is not happening, it is because precious educational time is being spend teaching children how to be respectful and responsible instead...skills that should be modeled and taught at home. If children are not coming to school without these skills, should educators refuse to instill them? Of course not. Yet there is only so much time in the day. Schools are often asked to do too much with too little. Why? Because you can pass legislation that regulates statewide schooling, but you cannot pass legislation about parenting....because after all, it is a free country.
Edited by TobyToo (02/12/04 07:14 PM)
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fivestring
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: TobyToo]
02/12/04 08:01 PM
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"it is only fair that home schooled children be held accountable for the same standards as state schools. That means passing the state- wide tests, while taking the test in a test-centered environment..."
This is exactly what the majority is against!
"state schools" - ie: government
"state-wide tests" - ie: government tests
"test centered environment" - ie: government environment.
Who sets the standards? Government!
Who comes up with the tests? Government!
Give us a break....
Bottom line is: dumbing down. The public school system, by and large, is the single biggest government failure on record. The only thing close to it is welfare - government supported slavery. 4 generations of people are now dependent on the government for their income, their education and their menial jobs. 4 generations ago, churches and families took care of the people.
Facts and figures don't lie. Look at the amount spent per student per year in public schools. Unbelievable!
Look at the amount of money spent per person on welfare. Unbelievable!
What do we have to show for it? The largest prison population on the planet. Gangs in our public schools.
Guns in our public schools. Drugs in our public schools.
School systems everywhere, including here in NC, have failed. It does not matter how many millions and billions of dollars gets pumped into public schools, the majority will still fail. Why?
Because as mentioned numerous times - they teach to the lowest student's level.
The emphasis is on "sports" and how much revenue can be generated by basketball, football and baseball. They don't even have violins, guitars, upright basses or pianos in our public schools here anymore. It's almost all portable instruments - trumpets, trombones, drums... all things that can keep up with the sporting events teams and games!
I was taught how to tell time by a real clock when I was five years old. Our second graders her can not tell time unless it is digital!
I was taught how to perform calculations in my head. We have 10th graders here that can not perform calculations unless they have a calculator - and if they can't afford one, it is bought for them with TAXPAYER'S DOLLARS!
Our public school system here tries their best to keep the police from completing police reports on crimes committed in public schools. Why? Because if the public were to know the true crime stats, well you figure it out.
Back in 1993, I moved my then step-children out of the public schools in the largest county in NC. Why? Because my then step-daughter was sexually assaulted twice and each time the school system's answer was," We are handling the situation." The police were not notified either time until I gave them an ultimatum, either have a police report filled out or I would seek obstruction of justice charges against them. Within 36 hours, the student was arrested.
Is this an isolated incident? NO.
My youngest sister is battling that same school system now.
The vast majority of public school systems are a failure. Just look at the responses from all over the country on this post alone.
Home schooling is the only alternative. No government intervention.
You are absolutely correct in saying it's not for everybody. It's only for those that truly want their children to be achievers, thinkers, inventors, etc.
Public schools are definitely the best option for families that do not have time for their children or don't want to spend their own money for their child's "education".
I don't think the average person blames the mess on the teachers. It's more on the administrators. Elected School boards seem to be the real problem. Getting elected to any position is a "Popularity Contest". Popular people are rarely the best qualified.
This is not aimed at you in particular. It is basically a recap of the responses already along with my .02.
Gary
Bluegrass Music ...
Finger-pickin' good!
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Pat
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: fivestring]
05/01/04 12:16 AM
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Well excuse me! Lets see if I can iritate everyone or at least the majority.
There are lots of good teachers willing to do a better job. All this vague anti-Government sentiment clouds the issues and creates a nebulous "enemy" and us vs them environment.
How can someone simultaneously maintain that Government tests are dumbed down and be afraid to let their SUPERIOR home schooled and educated child compete in taking them?
I hope I don't tread too heavily on any toes (well, not really) but some parents home school as a form of mind control.
Pseudoscientific claptrap cloaked in pseudoscientific specious arguments passes for science. It isn't enough that it is hard to find a textbook that doesn't have way too many of its facts wrong (verifiable facts like important dates in history) and political bias that reeks or espouses a narrow view of KORECT thinking. Some parents are well intentioned but just plain wrong in thinking that if they withold contact with the "real world" they can somehow "protect" the child. Whatcha gonna do when the kid is 21?
Pedagogy isn't my forte but it isn't rocket science or brain surgery and I do have a masters in instructional technology so I have a clue about training-schooling-educating. You don't control what you can't measure. Feedback is required to control the process. Proper testing gives that feedback.
It is the right of all citizens in the US to get a public sponsored education. Substituting another path is just fine if it is as good as or better than the public approach. A responsible and credible means of determining equivalence or superiority of learning is proper testing. The proof is in performance. Either the student can perform or not.
There are a lot of things that the Government can do in the name of we the people to protect the rights and liberties of minors EVEN WHEN IT CONFLICTS WITH THE EXPRESS WISHES OF PARENTS. Children aren't property (chatel) to be dealt with in any manner desired by virtue of having participated in creating their life.
Why should home schoolers fear Government tests? Are they afraid their shortcomoings will be exposed? If their home schooling is so superior and Government tests are so dumbed down the complaint should be of relavancy and the demand should be for harder tests for all students.
For all violent dissagreements, please post flames to Bird (Senter) as he is quite broad shouldered and level headed and not prone to vengeful rants.
Thank you,
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Bird
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Pat]
05/01/04 06:01 AM
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In reply to:
For all violent dissagreements, please post flames to Bird (Senter) as he is quite broad shouldered and level headed and not prone to vengeful rants.
Thanks a lot, Pat.  I know a lot of people who'd disagree with your description of me. 
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Pat
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Bird]
05/01/04 09:02 AM
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BIrd, From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.
Pat 
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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fivestring
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Bird]
05/03/04 06:50 AM
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I'll second the nomination of Bird. 
Gary
Bluegrass Music ...
Finger-pickin' good!
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BrianP
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Pat]
05/17/04 03:52 PM
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Hmmmm.
I don't fear government tests of my kids, although I would sort of wonder the basis of those tests: regurigition or reasoning?
It is interesting, however, that the teachers unions raised hell when the government tried to test teachers, or to use the students' test scores to evaluate teachers. It seems that teachers give tests, and don't take them. Fair enough, but it doesn't seem equitable that a teacher gets to keep his/her job through thick and thin, whether or not he/she is a capable teacher. Too bad the rest of us don't get the same treatment in our jobs.
For the past couple months, in addition to homeschooling our kids, my wife has been giving remedial instruction to a neighbour's son. His reading skills were so poor he was going to be sent to a 'special' school. It seems that he has hearing difficulties and problems concentrating, meaning learning disabled, like about 10% of his class. Curiously, his hearing, etc., are not a barrier to his math skills.
I'm not a teacher, but I know that a 'special' school is a one way trip. Seven days a week of hour long lessons and his hearing keeps getting better and better. If I didn't know any better, I'd say the problem lay with his teacher.
You see, in our (my wife & I) primitive way of thinking, real life is not learning how to write tests, its learning reading, writing, arithmetic, math, chemistry, physics, history and how to figure stuff out. It means being willing to do work that is 'beneath you' because it has to be done if you want better. It means reading a book because you are interested in the subject, not because there is a test on it.
My original question was, how do you deal with anti-home schoolers. I don't think I've ever laced into somebody because they send their kids to public school.
Of course, thanks to my wife, our 3 are fluently bilingual (reading, writing, and spoken). The oldest is doing well in university, the 11 year old is doing high school chemistry, and even the 6 year old is reading English, his second language, at a level well beyond his years. (We were watching a documentary on the Battle of the Atlantic and he spotted a destoryer and told me "Dad - that's a destroyer - you can tell by the guns" and went and got a book on WWII ships to show me).
The kids aren't geniuses. They've just been taught by a good teacher, and those are quite rare.
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ljh2
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
05/18/04 08:54 AM
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In reply to:
Fair enough, but it doesn't seem equitable that a teacher gets to keep his/her job through thick and thin, whether or not he/she is a capable teacher. Too bad the rest of us don't get the same treatment in our jobs.
I'm actually thankful that the rest of us don't get the same treatment in our jobs. The quality of work done by people in this situation would rapidly degrade.
I walk the line between home/public school ideologies, but I will agree that, in either situation, for a kid to get a decent education, it must begin at home. Parental involvement is key to children learning. Parents that expect to send their kids off to the government institution without daily involvement (asking about assignments, asking what they are currently studying, reviewing 'homework', etc...) are unlikely to get much in return. Your kids know whether or not you care much about education. If you don't invest yourself in their education, why would/should they?
I for one applaud the effort that you and your wife obviously put into educating your kids!!! 
I also agree that, too often, it seems that tests are designed more around regurgitation of facts rather than thoughtful reasoning. However, it is important that any well thought out reasoning should have a basis in fact. Without that foundation, it would be impossible to support the reasoned conclusion. Of course, you already knew that since your 6 year old was supporting his statement about the Destroyers with documented evidence. It would seem that a well designed test would include both facts and reasoning so we can excercise both parts.
I've known people that could recite facts all day and not put together a cohesive argument about them, and other people who would argue all day without a single fact to support their statements. Neither were very effective. 
I'm not sure how to handle 'anti-homeschoolers'. I guess I'd let your success speak for itself. People with differing opinions often feel obliged to share them, for whatever reason. In your situation, I'd agree with Gatorboy's one word summary about their reason - jealousy. Many people don't have the education or the willingness to spend as much time as you and your wife have chosen to. In addition to jealousy, I'd bet that a lot of people have little understanding of the effort that goes into a quality home-schooled education. They just see your kids staying at home. They don't see your wife preparing lessons or your kids doing the lessons. Of course they probably don't see that aspect of the public system either.
Good luck to both you and your wife for your continued success!
larry
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Pat
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
05/18/04 12:41 PM
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Hey, I sure can't find fault with your attitude and approach. I do agree with the idea that teaching reasoning and analysis is more important than simple regurgitation of facts. Once you get out of school, life is an open book test. Knowing where and how to find information is as important or more so than memorizing isolated facts.
The ability to form testable hypotheses and proceed through a multi-stage analysis using the scientific method is a skill that is of great value throughout life. Learning how to learn is quite important.
I have known parents that have taught their children how to be critical observers by watching TV ads and trying to note all the various "selling" methods and appeals to various lapses in logic.
About Government tests... You can't control what you can't measure. All citizens, even young ones, have a right to expect the Government to act in their best interest. Tests can and should be used to measure the success of the educational process and devine from the results the difficulties or shortcomings as introduced by either student or teacher failure.
Unfortunately, when faced with being scrutinized for teaching ability by how well students perform, instructors often teach to the exam which makes them and their students look good but in reality short circuits the process.
I don't have all the answers, heck, I don't even have most of the questions but I have spent a lot of years as a student and have an abiding interest in education. I also have a MS in Instructional Technology. My only formal teaching experience was teaching software engineering and senior projects classes to university seniors majoring in computer science in evening classes (part time job thing.)
My application of that degree was leading a team of 30 folks developing computer based instruction for certain naval systems where the youngest students were 17.
Pedogogy was never my speciality.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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meledward23
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Pat]
10/28/04 08:27 AM
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Fivestrings: You posted a interesting post about many of the ailments of this country. I have no interest in discussing your points. However, I think you might find "Home from Nowhere" by James Kunstler. It is a very interesting study on the social development of America and it's cities and population as opposed to old city growth and development in Europe. And how these differences are reflected in our society. (the book is about much more but for breviety sake.)
I have to comments about pro home vs anti home.
1) Home schooling is only as good as the parents (ie the teacher)
2) Govt School is only as good as the teacher and PARENTS. No matter the ability and level of the teacher if parents dont stay involved with their children before and after school they cant be expected to succeed. To many people presume schools will do it all. How many kids come home from school sit in front of a tv, and do their homework during the 15 minutes of Homeroom class. And then the teachers get blamed.
I am not Anti home....
I am not Anti Govt....
There is good and bad in everypart and everyside of each..... But to me the fundamental and most important thing is where is the parent! what is the parent doing and how are they involved. Doesnt matter if you are homeschooled or Govt schooled. No parent = Bad odd (not impossible thanks to the power of some human spirits).
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spunkey22
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: Gatorboy]
03/19/05 10:33 PM
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I did'nt home school my children , but if I had it to go over I would do so . My daughter had so much trouble at school, with peer preasure and I had to move her. She ended quitting in the tenth grade.But she got her GED and Has a good life for herself now. I was very dissapointed with the teachers. I worry about my grandchildren now.
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lbrown59
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Re: How do you deal with 'anti home schoolers'
[re: BrianP]
05/15/05 08:41 PM
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While I admit I'm not very poilitically correct at the best of times
===============
NO ONE IS EVER poilitically correct .
Once it becomes poilitical it is no longer correct.
lb
3 Kubotas
1 BX23
2 BX1500s
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