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Mosey
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Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
02/03/03 12:42 PM
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I've already tried cats Well, I started feeling guilty. A dog is not looking promising Please tell me about dogs. I can't afford a horse. What are some other options for outdoor pets? Something that can be penned up and still be happy would be preferable. I can afford to build a small pole barn, but not anything big enough for a horse, donkey, etc. I've thought of goats, but don't know much about them. I've also had someone suggest rabbits, but don't know much about them either. The kids are 6 1/2 years old (twins, boy and girl).
PS: Some of the things I'm interested in learning about regarding various pets are: initial cost, cost of spaying/neutering, cost of feeding, cost of shots, and any other hidden costs. Any help regarding where to get them is also appreciated. Also, what arrangements need to be done for their care while we're gone on vacation.
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WVBill
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 01:11 PM
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If you just want an animal you can pen up outside and leave to the care of a 6 1/2 year old - please don't get anything.
WVBill
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beenthere
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 01:19 PM
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I would suggest nothing until the kids make a decision what they want, why they want it, and when they can (or will be told to) take care of it on their own. The cat is the only pet that I can think of that will come close to "taking care of itself" while gone. But that at least takes someone to check in to be sure it didn't die in the corner somewhere and start to stink up the house. Sure do get scolded when you come back home tho. Don't have a cat anymore!
Get the kids bikes, outside toys, that are inanimate and if ignored, just collect dust. Or, if this is really something to keep you from getting lonely, get what you want, and don't kid yourself that it is for "the kids". 
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Mosey
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: beenthere]
02/03/03 01:52 PM
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What exactly did I say to tick you guys off? I'm just trying to find some kind of pet for the kids that won't be a constant hassle for me. If they're in a pen, then they can't get in the flower bed or poop on the gravel under the carport. Why is that such and outrageous requirement? Obviously, I'll be doing most of the work and paying for the food and whatever else they need. When I said "penned up and still be happy" I didn't mean put in there and forgotten! But, I also don't want something that's going to be miserable if it doesn't get constant attention, since the kids will be in school and we can't be out there with them 24 hours a day! I'm looking for something that the kids can learn to take care of - with my help - and get some fun out of, but without having the garden and flowers destroyed and poop all over the yard.
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RichZ
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 02:20 PM
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Danny, I don't think anyone is ticked off, it's just that there is no answer for you right now. Your kids are just too young to be totally responsible for the care of any animal. And if you get them an animal that they have no interest in, then they won't even provide companionship for it.
As I said before, if they were interested in a rabbit, that would work, but only if YOU or your wife was in charge of the care. Unless your kids are the most mature kids in the world for their age, they are just too young to be totally responsible for the care of any animal.
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
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Mosey
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: RichZ]
02/03/03 02:26 PM
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"Your kids are just too young to be totally responsible for the care of any animal"
Can someone tell me when and where I ever said that? If I did, it was a complete typo! I have never said that!
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RichZ
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 02:39 PM
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Danny, I'm sorry. I re-read your original post, and you never did say that!! I misunderstood!! 
OK, in that case I would suggest a rabbit or rabbits. You can build or buy a hutch, and they do well outside. In fact building the hutch would be a good project to do with the kids.
Sorry for the misunderstanding!!!! 
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
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Boondox
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 03:00 PM
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Danny -- I think you struck a chord with those of us who have devoted pets and know first hand how much they can enrich your lives. And I think maybe at least some of us hope you can come to experience that firsthand yourself...but it won't happen with any creature kept in a pen. Can you imagine how much fun (NOT!) a child would be if it was kept in its bedroom for the majority of his or her life?
After several bad experiences with parents shopping for a pet for their children, we no longer release rescued goldens to families with kids less than ten years old...and over ten it is perfectly clear that the contract is with the parent, not the child. This is not meant as a slam against children, but rather as an acknowledgement that kids need to reach a certain level in their psycho-social development before they are capable of caring for another sentient being.
I have a constructive suggestion. If you have an animal shelter in the area how about taking the kids over and do some volunteer work? That way you get exposed to a variety of creatures, can play with each, and in time (and as your children mature) get a better feel for what would be appropriate.
Simmer down a bit. Nobody here is slamming you. Again, we know how much more fulfilling animal companionship can be than mere "pet ownership."
Pete
Ragtag Golden Retriever Rescue
Lamoille County, Vermont
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Mosey
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Boondox]
02/03/03 03:15 PM
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"but it won't happen with any creature kept in a pen"
I think there has been some misunderstanding here. When I said "penned up" I didn't mean an 8'x10' pen. I meant a half acre or an acre - for something like rabbits or goats. Horses are also "penned up", but they're generally penned up in an area of a few acres. The idea is that I can control where they can't go. But, they can do what they want and poop anywhere they want inside their pen.
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Boondox
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 05:32 PM Attachment
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In reply to:
I didn't mean an 8'x10' pen. I meant a half acre or an acre
Danny, Danny, Danny: Dogs are not livestock. They need interaction. They need a pack, with you as the Alpha male. The size of the pen won't matter; a dog is a social animal.
Try the animal shelter thing. Shelters are always looking for volunteers to walk and exercise their charges. It won't cost you anything but time. And it might save you some frustration.
Pete
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Fred
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 05:32 PM
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Mosey,
Why does it need to be an outside pet? Why not get them a rat and build a nice pen/cage for it in your basement? Seriously, they are supposed to be pretty intelligent and make good pets, they don't generally have a long lifespan, so when your kids are a few years older and ready for something that takes a bit more commitment, chances are the rat won't be around anymore. I have to agree with the replies you've been getting. I'm not a PETA person, but definitely don't consider pets as throwaway items because they cause a little inconvenience. Without going into your profile, if you live where it's cold, you're going to have a problem with keeping water unfrozen in the winter and that can become a big hassle as well. Even for a rabbit. I was serious about the rat, you can do more with them than a rabbit anyway.
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 05:39 PM
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Danny,
Rabbits wouldn't need 1/2 an acre. Small pens are all I ever see them raised in. Goats could use the 1/2 acre. There are a couple of things about goats and kids though. First, the children must be taught to never, never pat the goat on top of the head. This can encourage the goat to reciprocate by butting. Also, they must be taught to never try to ride the goat. Goats are not horses and this can break their spines, which results in the goat needing to be destroyed. Goats like to climb and will climb fences. (This spring, I will be putting up a 6' ratite fence with electric fencing inside to prevent climbing and rubbing. The local 4H recommends 3 strands of electric wire. One at 6" to discourage crawling under, one at 30" to discourage rubbing and one at about 48" to discourage climbing.) They don't do it to be mean to you, they are just really curious and friendly and will try to climb up on the fence to get attention. (They also just really like to run around loose  ). They are quite adept at working gate latches and can usually figure out how to handle one if they can reach it. Their hoofs need to be trimmed, and they are subject to several diseases that you would probably want to test for prior to purchase. A grade goat might be had for under $50.00. I have heard of champion goats selling for several thousand dollars. Our animals are tattooed, registered and papered with traceable lineage and were in the range of several hundred per goat. If the children were a little older, this might be a viable option (assuming your local 4H has a goat chapter), as there are competitions and shows that the kids can get involved in. A nanny goat would be the preferred choice over a billy. (The billys have a strong odor for a good part of the year-- say January to november ). The photo at left is of me with Lilly, our only grade goat and the first animal which we purchased. What you can't see in the picture is that Lilly was distracting me while Rebecca was sneaking up behind me to chew on my coat. (Not eat it, just chew on it. That's another thing goats do, they chew on stuff.)
Rabbits seem like the most likely choice. Not having raised them, I don't know a whole lot about it. But, it would seem they are relatively cheap to purchase and need minimal investment (both in space and money) for housing. All of their droppings would be confined to one spot, and I understand the droppings are very good for gardens. I'm not sure how long a #50 pound bag of food would last, but I would expect it to be awhile.
I don't know if I can tell you anthing more, but if you have a question, I'll try.
Steve
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Handyman
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 05:58 PM
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In reply to:
But, they can do what they want and poop anywhere they want inside their pen.
I don't think you understand Danny. Just because you have an acre of land, doesn't mean you can have an animal and NOT have to clean up after it... even a pig needs to be cleaned up after. You can't have an animal and just feed it and water it without working with it... yes working, teaching.
How about planting a tree in the middle or your yard... it still requires water, an occasional feeling and the tree in return will give you pleasure by providing shade, something for your kids and their kids to play in and around. Unfortunately it also requires some maintaining, you might have to rake some leaves in the fall.
Or maybe a nice garden... there is nothing better than fresh veggies 
I apologize for my sarcasm, but to ask people what kind of pet you should get for your kids just so you can pen it up isn't really a question that a responsible person would ask.
I have 5 acres in the country and I have been looking for some type of "Grass Muncher" (cow, horse, pony), but I realize that they require more care than I can offer since I'm away from home so much. So instead I have been planting various unique shade trees. (Yes this is a hobby I've substituted for instead of getting animal)
Have you thought about a hobby where YOU and your twins can do together..? remote control air planes, cars, boats... a go cart where they can ride, race and have fun, you have the room... In my opinion, time shared is much more memorable & rewarding than a "Penned animal".
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beenthere
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 06:21 PM
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 Sorry, but you didn't tick me off. I was giving you a straight answer as best I could in response to your questions.
Now, if you have the answers, then.........
But keep 
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kokopelli
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 06:58 PM
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if you really NEED and animal the rabbit idea is the best one mentioned as of yet.
they dont take up much space and can be really fun....plus there are some huge ones that dont mind being held and played with.
i had some when i was little and it was great...we would take them out of ther pens one in a while (you have to keep them seperate, same sex will kill eachother and oppisite will make make babies....lots of them. if you have them in a raised hutch you can just shovel the poop into the garden and its great fertilizer!
very low maintenace, very quiet, very cheap, dont live too long 7-8 years i sopose.
yet again i think if you must have an animal look at rabbits
oh and yes you upset me...i am offended that you think an animal knows where you dont want them to relieve themselve when nature tells them to mark your territory with stoole. and then you are nice enough to give them a 100 watt light bulb, but not let them in the garage or basement, so they stay closer to the warmth and have to go.....what did you expect them to do? i dont think you would venture too far away from your house to pee when is 2 degrees outside! why should they?
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MikePA
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 07:56 PM
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Hi Danny, this certainly has become an interesting thread.
I've read all of your posts and I can't determine why you want a pet. Please know that I am not trying to be a smarty-pants or being sarcastic. If we knew why, it might be easier to recommend something.
If I've read your posts correctly, the requirements for the animal are;
1. Can live outdoors in all seasons in a simple shelter, i.e., it will not be an indoor pet.
2. Needs minimal interaction with humans outside of feeding and medical attention.
3. Not a dog or a cat.
Some animals that come to mind are;
- Miniature horses
- Pigs
- Chickens
- Llamas
- Alpacas
- Other fowls, e.g. ducks, geese, etc.
- Rabbits (as others have mentioned)
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kerr
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/03/03 11:09 PM
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A pigmey goat nanny will fit the bill well for you and the sprouts.Get a kid,let em grow together.I would say 2 would be better than 1.Less than 20 bucks a pop would be about rite around here.They really dont like grass that much but are good with most else.Dont bet anybody that a goat wont climb a tree,you'll lose! They are very low mant.Hope I helped ya.
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Boondox]
02/04/03 04:55 AM
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Back in the 1970's we bought a pet rock...easy to take care off.Even came with a box for it to stay in.
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Mosey
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/04/03 08:05 AM
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Pete - Please re-read my initial post on this thread. I'm not asking about dogs here! I already stated that cats, dogs, and horses are not an option and that I'm looking into what other animals might make good pets.
Fred - "Why does it need to be an outside pet?" Good question. The problem is that my house is already full! I don't have a basement. I haven't been able to figure out an affordable way to add on. But, I have plenty of room outside. I'm considering rabbits because I could at least put their hutch in the garage during the winter.
Steve - Thanks for the info on goats and rabbits.
Handyman - Thanks for responding. I agree that I will still have to clean up after them. I don't mind doing that. I grew up on a farm and have pitched lots of manure! The key point is that I don't want to be cleaning it off the garage and breezeway floor, gravel, flower beds, etc. We couldn't even open the windows last summer because the cat poop under them stunk up the house! "tree ... garden" The bashing continues!
kokopelli - Thanks for the info on rabbits. I apologize for offending you. I acted based on info from other outdoor cat owners who have never had the problems I have. I have talked to several people who have outside cats and they are amazed when I tell them about my problems. Their cats go off into a field or woods and do their business there. For example, everyone told me a cat won't poop where he/she can't cover it up and that has turned out not to be true. I was given bad info and acted on it. If I would have known the truth to start with, I would never have gotten the cats.
Mike - I don't want a pet, the kids do. Thanks for the list of suggestions.
kerr - Thanks for the suggestion.
Steel_Wheels - Now the bashing is getting harder - literally - ouch, those rocks hurt when they hit!
Why is everybody so defensive about penning up a pet? (remember, I don't mean dogs). Horses are penned up. Goats are penned up. Just because they're penned up doesn't mean they are abandoned! I didn't say I want to pen something up and forget about it. I also never said I was going to leave the 6 1/2 year old kids in complete charge of the animals care. I've obviously gotten on the bad side of pet owners and am being assumed to be a mean spirited animal hater, which is not true.
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/04/03 12:45 PM
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Danny,
Seriously consider the pigeon idea. I know some folk who raise them for racing. It's not the world's most popular sport. (Not on ESPN much). But, these guys have really gotten into it. The birds are quieter than chickens, eat less, and because they are handled regularly, it is easy to cull the flock and keep the population where you want it. They do tend to poop on stuff. But, it's kind of interesting having a pet that you can take on vacation, drop off a couple off hundred miles from home, and have it beat you back.
On the rabbits, are these to be inside or outside pets? I know people who have indoor rabbits, and others that have outdoor ones. If you get the right breed, you can always eat them. (Don't know how the kids would feel about that). I don't know that they would have to be moved into the garage in the winter, although that would certainly help with their water freezing. But, they would need to be sheltered from the wind like just about any other critter.
Steve
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Alan_L_Texas
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/04/03 10:52 PM
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Danny:
Goats come to mind. I've never owned any, but they can be comical. They do need shelter, and you might need a mule to keep the coyotes off of them however.
The problem with dogs is that they think they are people, and almost as smart.
Alan L. - Texas
North of Mustang
South of Bugtussle
On the Banks of Buck Creek
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Mosey
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/05/03 08:10 AM
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Steve - "Seriously consider the pigeon idea." Please remember, I'm looking for something for the kids. I really don't think the kids will have much fun with pigeons.
I kind of like the idea of goats. The neighbors have some and the kids have gone over and petted them and like them. But my wife doesn't like that idea.
Rabbits seemed like a good idea until I researched them some more. I seems they're fine at first, but soon become "un-playful" and don't like to be handled.
Miniature horses would just frustrate the kids, especially my daughter, who is crazy about horses and wants one she can ride. Some friends have some full size horses and the kids have ridden them and love them. Maybe in a few years if my wife goes back to work, then we can get horses. By then the kids will be older and can do more of the work, and hopefully I'll be done with most of the projects I'm planning to do (build room addition, build pole barn, etc) and have more time to deal with pets. I've had some people tell me horses don't take that much time and aren't that expensive, but others tell me are they like another full time job and are expensive. It depends on how well a person takes care of them I guess.
I need to get something that the kids will enjoy and not get bored with. That was part of the problem with the cats. They never were playful. We got them toys and the kids would go out and try to play with them, but all the cats ever really wanted to do was lay around.
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Mosey
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/05/03 10:11 AM
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I found the article below on epinions. The cost of neutering is discouraging!
The truth about pet rabbits, bunnies, hares, or whatever you wanna call em. Jun 25 '02
The Bottom Line Bunnies are affectionate, clean, loving animals. With the right care they make wonderful pets!
We went to the pet store and bought a little bunny for the kids for Easter. I didn't know a thing about them! I bought the bunny and an entire package including a "Getting Started Guide," a cage, timothy hay, rabbit pellets, salt licks, wood chips, a water bottle and even a little food dish. I had no idea how to take care of this pet, but I do now! It's been, believe it or not, a very rewarding experience.
If you are thinking about purchasing a bunny rabbit for yourself or your child, I've composed a list of things that may help you.
It takes time and effort
Remember that you have to take the time to give your rabbit fresh water, food and love every day. You need to groom it, clean it's cage, and let it have exercise. If you don't have time to do these things then I wouldn't buy a bunny.
What kind of rabbit do you want?
There are over 50 different breeds of bunnies. We simply chose the cheapest one! LOL I wouldn't buy a giant bunny for a child because they can be a real chore. At the same token, I wouldn't buy a miniature breed of rabbit because a child may squeeze, drop or generally mishandle it. It depends on who the rabbit is for. Angora and other fluffy rabbits require way too much grooming for my taste. We asked the pet store owner how big our bunny would grow. We were told no more than 5 pounds, and this was perfect for us.
Buy a healthy rabbit
When choosing your bunny, whatever breed, make sure that you check it's eyes and nose for anything crusty or oozy. Also, check it's back paws for saturation. This is a sign of incontinence. Rabbits, like cats, are easily litter/potty trained. Make sure your rabbit is active and moving instead of sitting hunched over with no movement. Check the 'solidness' of the bunny, make sure it doesn't feel very bony and light.
Picking up your rabbit
I've read that when the rabbit is weaned (after 8 weeks) it's ok to pick it up by the scruff of the neck. Other sources say that you should always support the hind legs of the rabbit and hold it close to your body so it feels secure. This is how we handle our rabbit, and she's very calm and affectionate.
Home for your bunny
Many people keep their pet rabbits outside but we keep ours in the house. There are plenty of places to purchase rabbit cages. I chose one from Walmart, and it was about $30.00. Line the bottom of the cage with woodchips, which can be purchased in a bunny-packet for $3-4. But a 'bunny toilet' and put it in the corner. This is where your bunny will pee and leave its poop pellets. It's pretty cute to see it sitting there on its throne!! Supply the rabbit with chew toys like special salt licks and veggie licks. Any pet store can direct you to these items. Always have a bottle of fresh water (the drink out of a silver water feeder like a hamster), and plenty of fresh timothy hay. One bag of timothy hay lasts over three months and costs about $4.00. Give your rabbit 'bunny pellets' daily.
More on feeding
Surprisingly, bunnies don't eat carrots like Bugs Bunny does. They can slowly be introduced to veggies and fruits, but it's best to stick to the leafy veggies like lettuce and the tops of carrots. We feed our bunny fruit treats once in a while like a slice of apple or pear. They enjoy variety, but it's important not to upset their digestive system because bunnies cannot regurgitate. They are NOT part of the rodent family, but nonetheless they cannot get rid of their food by any means besides digestion.
Grooming
A rabbit will change coats twice yearly. They are constantly cleaning themselves like a cat, so you need to be very careful to brush and groom your bunny. Again, they can't regurgitate a hairball so this is vital.
Bunny Behaviour
Rabbits are very affectionate creatures, when they want to be. They will cuddle with you and sit on your lap. At the same token, they will scratch you and nip at you. This usually means they are..well..horny! It's their natural instinct so many people like to get their rabbits fixed. However, this procedure can cost up to $100.00 and not many vets know how to do it. We haven't taken this step, but our rabbit is calm for the most part. We let it have free run of the house, but we have to be careful that it doesn't bite through electric cords. I still have no sound on my computer thanks to our bunny! If a rabbit hisses or growls at you, it's probably best to get rid of it. It has probably been mistreated at some point of its life, and there's no going back.
Some other good points
*Never leave your bunny in direct sunlight, although they do like some sunlight. We keep ours in a window and let it outside in a cage once in a while.
*Be careful letting small children handle a rabbit, and never let them pick a rabbit up by the ears.
*Don't ever flick or abuse a rabbit for poor behaviour. It won't work, it will just make the rabbit mean.
*Make sure you clean its cage at least once a week. It smells and you'd be surprised at how much waste a rabbit produces in its own little corner.
*Buy a rabbit ONLY from a licensed pet dealer to assure that you're getting a quality pet. I've seen them at the farmer's market on a Saturday piled on top of one another and they don't look very healthy.
*Make sure you're in this for the long haul. A rabbit can live up to 10 years with proper care.
That's surprising about the carrots, I wonder if it's true? I read somewhere else that rabbits should never be fed lettuce, so I don't know what to believe at this point. It would probably be fun for the kids to grow something in the garden and then feed rabbits with what they've grown.
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Bird
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Reged: 09/12/02
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Posts: 1694
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Loc: Corinth, TX, USA
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/05/03 10:48 AM
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Danny, I raised New Zealand White rabbits for a couple of years; started with one buck and three does, and in a little over two years, produced about 350 rabbits.  The article quoted is not bad. Rabbits will tend to use one corner of their cage for the bathroom. The main feed I used was Purina Rabbit Chow (made primarily from alfalfa), but they also loved for me to pull handsfull of grass and clover and put in the cages. I don't recall giving them lettuce, but they did like cabbage leaves. And if you put a whole carrot in the cage, they'll eat the entire top quickly and just nibble on the carrot a bit. I suppose if they got hungry, they'd eat the whole carrot. Personally, I'd never want a rabbit for an indoor pet, but a few people do. And as the article pointed out, they'll chew or gnaw on everything.
I also raised mixed breed goats and think a nanny goat makes a great outdoor pet. They'll follow you around like a dog and the only downside I found was the fact that they love to climb; on everything, jump up on the workbenches in the shop, on top of cars, on my tractor, and anywhere else they find interesting. But do not get a billy goat for a pet (I got mine for breeding from a kid who got him as a baby goat, but he grew up and the kid wanted to be rid of him and I don't blame him).
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Mosey
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Re: Need suggestions for outside pets for kids
[re: Mosey]
02/05/03 01:34 PM
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I may have it wrong, but I'm getting the drift that "real animal lovers" that spend a lot of time with their pets don't have any young kids in the house. It might be fair to say that for most people there's time for one or the other, but not both?
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