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mrwurm
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Is this normal for puppies ?
05/20/06 07:37 PM
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My wife picked up a lab/springer mix from a rescue. We've had him for about 3 weeks now. He is quite mild and calm. The dog is about 4 1/2 months old. Today, my wife brought home a golden retriever mix from another shelter. This dog is a female, 6 months old. Also, pretty mild and calm. Once the two dogs sniffed each other and got over the surprise of meeting a new friend, they started playing. At least I think its playing. They wag their tails and make low growls while they bite each other on practically every part of the others body. (they are both about the same size) They especially like to take turns getting the other to lay on their back and then bite the soft underside of the neck. They seem perfectly happy doing this, but we worry they will hurt each other. Also, my eight yr old boy is scared by the behavior. Currently, we have to crate one or the other as this 'play' seems to never end. And . . . this is the first day for the new dog. Any thoughts ?
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mrwurm
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: mrwurm]
05/20/06 07:51 PM
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Some of the reading we've done indicates that upon arrival of a new dog, the current dog will assume dominance. Once the new dog becomes acclimated, the dominant dog position may change. Are we seeing this play fighting behavior to establish dominance ? How long should we expect this play fighting to continue ?
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GaryM
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: mrwurm]
05/20/06 08:14 PM
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Well, the current dog may try to assume dominance, but won't always succeed. Puppies play fight a lot to learn how to get along. As long as they don't draw blood and neither of the dogs runs away in obvious distress I wouldn't be too concerned. I'll add that in many cases the female will turn out to be the dominant one.
I'd expect the play fighting to taper off as they get a little older.
Gary
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Hey! Aren't you supposed to be working?
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Bird
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: mrwurm]
05/21/06 07:34 AM
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Jerry, I think that's normal and nothing to worry about. But I've never had those breeds before. Of course we now have a Chihuahua pup and it's our first time with that breed, too. I have a slightly similar problem with just the one dog, except it's us she wants to chew on instead of another dog. We got her when she was 12 weeks old, and she's now 6 months old. And she's just a bundle of energy and wants to "play fight" all the time. She won't bite hard enough to hurt if you don't jerk away, but with those sharp teeth, my wife and I both have scratches on our arms and my wife got one finger cut bad enough it should have been stitched (she didn't go to the doctor until it showed infection and then it was too late to sew it up).
This is a weird pup to us. She doesn't want to sleep "on" a quilt or blanket; she wants a big one that she can burrow back into plumb out of sight. Looks like it would be too hot and she'd have trouble breathing, but that's her preference. Of course, during the day when she gets tired, or I refuse to continue playing with her, she still likes to climb up and nap on my shoulder or back of my neck if I'm sitting in the recliner.
She goes to the vet to be spayed the 31st and I hope she slows down a bit as she gets older. 
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Pat
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: Bird]
05/21/06 02:58 PM
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Bird, Thanks for the pup update, I was just a fixin to ask.
Now, MRWURM, the laying on the back and exposing the throat to the others mouth is a symbolic act of submision carried down through the wolf genes. The dominant wolf by NOT ripping out the underlings throat has accepted them as a pack member in a lower status role than their own. If they take turns being the one on their back then it is likely "puppy play" , a rehearsal of instinctive behavior. In wolves, the dominant wolf will often touch the other's throat with its own muzzle or sometimes with open mouth only a snap away from killing the other but not doing it.
I agree that the behavior, if not distressing to either dog nor drawing blood, is just a "phase" they are going through. The child needs to understand that they aren't fighting and that it is just natural behavior. Better that than trying to distort the dogs behavior to simulate Disney characters to avoid the kid learing some fairly mild reality. It isn't like two pit bulls having at each other (not something for any age child.)
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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mrwurm
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: Pat]
05/21/06 03:21 PM
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Thanks to all that replied,
The dogs do alternate jumping on each others back, but the male seems to enjoy being down on his back with his abdomen exposed. He seems to prefer this fighting posture. You would think that the male is assuming a submissive role, but when posession of a favorite toy is in question, he gives her a growl and a false lunge that sends her running for shelter. Its quite interesting.
The kids still don't like the play fighting and I can understand why. I can't believe how they bite each others face and pull the skin. Looks like it hurts, but they don't yelp and they keep coming back for more.
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Bird
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: mrwurm]
05/21/06 06:06 PM
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In reply to:
can't believe how they bite each others face and pull the skin. Looks like it hurts, but they don't yelp and they keep coming back for more.
I can certainly understand how you feel, and I would never encourage anyone to be "rough" with an animal unless they know what they're doing; however, it would probably surprise you just how rough you can play with a dog and the dog enjoy it and keep coming back for more.
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BlueRidge
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: Bird]
05/21/06 07:29 PM
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This is a weird pup to us. She doesn't want to sleep "on" a quilt or blanket; she wants a big one that she can burrow back into plumb out of sight. Looks like it would be too hot and she'd have trouble breathing, but that's her preference.
That's standard chihuahua behaviour, bird. They like to burrow in to sleep. Not having much fur, they need to keep warmer than other dogs.
I spent from about 7th grade until I went off to basic training with one of those in my bed. You haven't lived until you've rolled over at 3 AM, squashing a small dog, who then nips the tender back of your thigh to remind you of his presence! 
I learned to sleep without moving around much. Still sleep that way. 
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BlueRidge
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: mrwurm]
05/21/06 07:30 PM
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They seem perfectly happy doing this, but we worry they will hurt each other. Also, my eight yr old boy is scared by the behavior. Currently, we have to crate one or the other as this 'play' seems to never end. And . . . this is the first day for the new dog. Any thoughts ?
Thoughts? Well, it's prefectly normal, harmless puppy play, and if an 8 year old is scared by it, it's a good thing for him he's getting introduced to real life.
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Bird
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: BlueRidge]
05/21/06 09:14 PM
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In reply to:
That's standard chihuahua behaviour, bird.
So I've read, Mark. What I haven't read about chihuahuas is that she likes to chew on something constantly; maybe that's normal for them, too. She's got more toys than I had as a kid, and she wants in and out the back door all day, chews constantly on grass stems, sticks, even a rock if she can find one. And she loves everyone and everything; just looking for anyone that'll play. We, unfortunately, have had grackles make nests in the Bradford Pear trees in our back yard this year, and some of the babies have fallen out of the nests at times. She's brought 5 to the back door. Two were still alive and she didn't hurt them. The other three were obviously dead when she found them because they were already stiff.
I suppose we have an unusual situation. I did not want another dog, and hardly a day goes by that I don't want to kick my own rear end for giving in to my wife. But dogs just naturally take to me more than to her. I've called this little mutt a "danged nuisance" so much that she thinks that's good, and part of her name. And while I sincerely regret having gotten her, you can't help but love the little scamp; maybe because it's so obvious that she loves us, and everyone else she meets.
In reply to:
You haven't lived until you've rolled over at 3 AM, squashing a small dog
I have never in my life allowed any dog on my bed until this one.  So she generally sleeps in the crate with a quilt that almost completely fills the crate, but she has slept in the bed, and yes, I've rolled over onto her, but she just yelps or whines, hasn't ever nipped me.
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BlueRidge
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: Bird]
05/22/06 11:18 AM
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Sounds like a normal chihuahua, Bird. Mine was NOT! Friends still tell horror stories about this small thing that could take on dogs 3 times his size, and win. I only saw him lose twice. The first one was a big St. Bernard size dog (coat like a yellow lab, though. ??) He just picked up my mutt in his mouth and was about to give him The SHake of Death when a neighbor whacked him with the flat of a shovel, right on the head. Both dogs decided to go home!
The second time was an Oldsmobile. He was chasing, and gaining on, a dog much bigger than him, and they ran across a street. 
Trust me, I know what you mean about them getting under your skin, in more ways than one.
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Bird
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: BlueRidge]
05/22/06 12:59 PM
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Mark, I tried to read up a bit on Chihuahuas and one of the things I read was that they get along well with other Chihuahuas, but not with other breeds; that they'll pick fights that they're bound to lose. So I guess we'll see as she gets older, but so far that hasn't been the case. She enjoys playing with our daughter's pair of Maltese that are close to her size. And one of my brothers has a mongrel they got at an animal shelter and probably weighs 35 pounds. It was comical the first time they visited, because this little scamp went after that big dog, running in circles around him and jumping on him trying to get that big lazy sucker to play, and he looked confused as the dickens. But it wasn't long until they were taking turns chasing each other and rolling on the ground together. I don't think my brother and sister-in-law had ever seen their dog display that much energy.
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: mrwurm]
05/22/06 01:00 PM
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Like the others have said it is typical dog play. FWIW, my dominant dog will be the first to roll on her back and let my GSD mouth her neck. She know she is the dominant dog of three and doesn't need to prove anything. This is where some people screw up and separate their dogs too quickly when the play turns a little rough, as it may do as they mature, neutered and spayed or not. If you don't let them decide who is boss, below you and yours of course, they will never know. They will grow up being uncomfortable around each other, looking for an opportunity when you aren't around to decide.
Of course this also depends on the breed. Some dominant breeds never decide and should never be left unattended with their own kind.
Hopefully your will figure out their hierarchy while they are still youngin's.
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SLOBuds
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: mrwurm]
05/22/06 02:56 PM
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I'd think it was normal. But what I would do is watch the submissive one to see if s/he is afraid with the 'play.' The tail and ears and eyes usually give me a clue as to whether the actions are welcome or not.
But I'm not a dog shrink, so I probably read it incorrectly some times.
The dog's personalities change over time. My dog started out having really rough play with his buddies. It was kind of fun to watch him wrestle with someone his size for a good 15 minutes or so. No one got hurt and both were having a good time. And he would always go home complete exhausted after the play.
Later he became more snippy and started showing his teeth with other dogs. It was scaring some of the other dogs, or if they were able to be dominant they would growl back in a way that was DEFINITELY unfriendly. So now I watch my dog much more closely and don't allow the angry-type play.
So the dog changes. But early rough play is completely expected. And it can be quite rough, but angry-rough and rough that frightens either of the dogs should be broken up.
Another thing that happens at the off leash park is ganging up. Withough being a phsychologist you can definitely see this as pack activity. My dog used to be fast enough to push back the pack. Now he recognizes the potential signs and just decides to stay out of trouble. If I see that happening with other dogs I will step in to break it up.
We have never had a case at the park where fights got out of control. I'm guessing that this is because the owners know they are expected to watch their animals and intercede quickly as tempers rise. But I've heard stories of dog fights that humans are virtually unable to break up - hasn't happened at our regular haunts. Plenty of snipping here snipping there.
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BlueRidge
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: Bird]
05/22/06 08:39 PM
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It was comical the first time they visited, because this little scamp went after that big dog, running in circles around him and jumping on him trying to get that big lazy sucker to play, and he looked confused as the dickens. But it wasn't long until they were taking turns chasing each other and rolling on the ground together.
Reminds me of a neighbor I had that inherited a Pomeranian. That little bugger was delighted to find herself in a big yard with a BIG (as in FAT adn OLD) German Shephard. They became great friends, as the big guy would play as best he could without moving too much. He'd lay down and 'snap' at the little one while she ran around, jumped on him, nipped his tail and generally and tired herself out.
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schmism
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Re: Is this normal for puppies ?
[re: BlueRidge]
11/17/06 02:38 PM
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my 2 labs play hard.... wrestle, biting matches (much as you describe) are fun to watch, as its compleatly play based on tale movements (wagging exitedly) and no standing hair, and ear postion.
ie its easy to read the body languge as play vs when one goes into alarm mode barking at something she doesnt like. (tail down, ears back, hair raised)
I will add that about every 3rd or 4th good wrestle match i get in there as "pack leader" and assert my dommance over both durring play to reinforce "im big dog" As you noted one will generally assert a dominace over the other. Durring this play time its great to come in and assert YOUR domminance over both.
as also mentioned as they get older there temperments can/do change. Also (as noted) just because they play well together does not mean they will get along with all other dogs the same way.
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