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Handyman
Gold Member

Reged: 11/01/02
Posts: 259
Loc: Tenn. USA
Bittting dogs
      12/19/03 12:33 PM

I have a very serious question here that would make the warm and fuzzy cringe.
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I'm in a middle of a discussion with several fellow dog owners (best friend,my freind the trainer and a couple others) and we are discussion at What point do you decide to put a dog down for aggressive behavour ?

Now a lot of us are dog owners here and we all have responsiblities as such.

Do you wait until your dog bites you ?
How many time does he get to draw blood before enough is enough ?
Do you wait until your dog bites a child ?
Do you wait until you are being suid homeless ?
At what point do you draw the line ?
How many people does he have to bite before realizing that your dog is a menice to society and he needs to be put down ?

I realize that these questions are what most people hate to even think about, never mind having to do... but we do have responsibilites as dog owners.

I know the Warm and Fuzzy response would be never and just isolate the dog, but what about that young child that see's the "Pretty Puppy" and next thing you know the child has been bite and screaming, the parents are scared and screeaming at you, then you know the rest...

I would be interested to hear from the breeders, If they would own a biting dog as well.


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kokopelli
Silver Member

Reged: 09/23/02
Posts: 103
Loc: maryland, usa
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      12/19/03 05:31 PM

i think it would all depend the first bite. if the dog puts up with alot of prodding and then nips and draws blood, you need to keep an eye out to keep it from happening again. on the other hand if it is a savage attack the dog must be put down, no matter how many times it has happened.

you are right this is the last thing i want to think about. that is why i dont leave my dogs unattended around children. no matter what happens, even if the child does something wrong, its my dog that is getting put down not some kid that kicked a dog.

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rozett
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 130
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      12/20/03 07:28 AM

Two years ago, I adopted a golden retriever from a rescue league in northern VT. The dog was 4.5 years old and they knew little of his history. Althought they claim to have tested the dog for aggressive behavior (specifically including food-related aggression), the dog bit me when I tried to move his food dish. This was only a week after I got him so I chalked it up to that fact that he was still in a state of confusion with a new home, etc. One concern I had was the way he bit me. He latched onto my hand and shook his head violently (like killing prey) until someone punched the dog in the ribs.

Tex and I went through obedience training and spent a lot of time together and I thought things were going well. About a year later, my daughter was home from college for a month. She reached into a box of dog biscuits to give him one. When she did a second biscuit fell on the floor. When she went to pick it up, the dog dropped the one in his mouth and latched onto her forearm and shook it violently. Fortunately, my wife was nearby and punched the dog to get him to let go.

I immediately called our vet and she recommneded having him put down. She said that two events in one year, but more importantly, the violence of the attacks told her that the dog could not be trusted around other people. As much as I really loved this beautiful animal, there was no hesitation about the decision (other than the 10-day waiting period required by law).

So my recommendation is to also consult your vet.

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kokopelli
Silver Member

Reged: 09/23/02
Posts: 103
Loc: maryland, usa
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: rozett]
      12/20/03 08:22 AM

very good point.

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tenebrous
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 413
Loc: Geneseo, New York
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      12/20/03 09:17 AM

What you are asking is impossible to answer without a lot more information and observation by competent trainer. However I will try to give you what I can.

Do you wait until your dog bites you ?

All dogs in new situations should be closely monitored and tested for aggressive behavior. If this is done properly you should not be reacting after being bitten but training to avoid the bite in the first place.

How many time does he get to draw blood before enough is enough ?


That is a real hard question. I have been training dogs for 45 years and have only been bitten three times, two of which did not draw blood. The only dog ever to draw my blood turned out to be one of the best GSD that I ever owned. He had been abused and was really quite difficult when he arrived at the kennel at eighteen months old.

At five years old he attacked and ripped up an armed robber who tried to hold up my gas station. That was the only person he ever bit after he got me. He was a great dog and my constant companion until he died at twelve years old.

Do you wait until your dog bites a child ?

Never allow a dog that you are unsure about to have the opportunity to bite anyone especially a child.

Do you wait until you are being suid homeless ?

Only if you ignore the answer above.

At what point do you draw the line ?

When you and your dog has receive all the training available and still is not trustworthy.

How many people does he have to bite before realizing that your dog is a menice to society and he needs to be put down ?


If a dog shows aggressive behavior, it has to be modified immediately and precautions have to be taken to avoid the first bite. With proper training for your family and the dog, most aggressive behavior can be modified. I do stress most. There is always the case that a particular dog just can’t be trusted in given situations. If you are not able to modify the dog or the dog’s environment then the dog should be removed to a more suitable placement. There are dogs that have to be put down because they are dangerous even after attempts at training. Unfortunately yes but that is the responsible action to take.


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Handyman
Gold Member

Reged: 11/01/02
Posts: 259
Loc: Tenn. USA
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: tenebrous]
      12/20/03 12:43 PM

I am speaking of a 4 yr old dog Boston Recue that has a history of bitting (nipping) its owners ( resently deceased ) which I didn't find out until AFTER I acquired the dog.
Since acquiring him, he has unprovoked bit a military cop's finger, no signs of irritation.. just run up and bit his hand (was dismissed as mistaken his gloved hand for a chew toy at the time) and has in defiance latched onto my hand after running him down from the great escape and leading him home by his collar and the next day flat out biting laying my finger open in two places. I lost it that day and he found out this was not a good thing. The past two days he has been very careful not to show any agression and I have been careful not to cause him to fear me. You can say we both are on our best behaviour.
When I first bought him from the rescue... I had to stop him from playing because he would get into this frenzy that would just prepetuate itself to a point that he would turn into this pscyco dog... I first thought it was cute, but now with all the pieces of the puzzle in place... it's no longer cute, it's sadning for me.

This isn't my first dog I've ever trained, but it is the first totally defiant "OLDER" dog I have gotten. My previous dogs were obtained while they were in there puppy yrs.
There is more history to this dog that I don't feel is nessesary to share other than the dog did nip/bit when ever the original owners had him. He was not socialized with people , children or other animals...

I spoke with my vet and he told me that he has only came across 1or2 Bostons in his 30 yrs as a Vet that has showed these agressive defiant signs. He told me I only have two choices since his behaviour as been allowed for so long and that I have7 young children on each side of me and about 16 just on my street under 12 yrs of age. Prozac at $150-$200 a month with no guarantee since he wasn't altered until resently and this agression is pretty much ingrained in him or put him down. My trainer friend has suggested extreme training or puting him down.

I suppose I know what eventually will need to be done... I was hoping for a miricle answer. Charlie is such a well behaved dog with a strong confident personality when he isn't having his psyhcotic episodes, but it is his unpredictability that the vet emphisized that will get me in trouble, that and he does has a history.

I haven't given up on him yet, but.....

Thanks for listening

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tenebrous
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 413
Loc: Geneseo, New York
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      12/20/03 02:39 PM

Unless you can isolate him from the children this could be a disaster waiting to happen. If the dog were my responsibility, I would make sure that there is no way that a child could set him off. Even then I would use a muzzle until training has shown a positive effect.

A slow process of socialization with dog experienced adults followed by careful introduction of a few children with the most vigilant supervision. Most of all never play rough with him or allow others to do so. This guy has not learned the limits so you cannot push him or he will just go too far.

Dealing with aggressive dogs is half patience and half dominance. This little guy has to see you as the boss and the boss controls food and comfort. Don’t tick the boss off if he want treats and companionship. Train him to sit, stay, lay down, roll over and more. Reward him and praise him to let him know you are in control. Socialize him and train him not to jump and be extra firm when he meets children or new adults.

You said you both are on your best behaviors after the bitting incident. When you punished him, you let him know that you were not happy with him and it sounds like he did respond. My dad trained dogs for protection and guard duty and weighed about 110 lbs. He never abused the dogs but they knew who was boss because he loved them and took care of them. He also had a two hundred pound voice and used it to command the dogs obedience. I am a lot bigger than my dad but the E-5 routine of in your face works better than hitting them. Reward is still the best training tool but negative reinforcement has its time and place. When either of my Giant Schnauzers gets in trouble they get bald out and sent to their cage. The other innocent one usually starts for their cage too until I tell them not to go to “bed”. The innocent one heads there just in case they are in trouble too.

Your little guy is a terrier at heart and with his history I can see why he is the way he is. Start with a plan and work with him and I bet you will find he will respond. There is always a trigger that makes them snap or bite. Just work to disarm that trigger and you will have a happy little guy.

Good luck,

Tim

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AndyF
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Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 312
Loc: Phelps, NY
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      12/20/03 11:13 PM

It depends upon the dog. You can cut a tiny dog some slack and explain away the biting because they can't do much damage, but with a big dog it needs to be addressed quickly. For us it was 1 1/2 weeks ago. Our blood hound bit a service man as he was walking up the back path towards the basement entrance. Previously he had nipped a few times when startled while eating or surprised by a stranger, but this time he bit. We notified animal control immediately, reviewed his history with our vet and put him in quarantine. On Monday he will be put down.

We could have made excuses about him being old, not seeing well, startled, etc... but what it came down to is that we could not trust that he would NEVER bite again and with a 140lb dog that risk is unacceptable.

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tenebrous
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 413
Loc: Geneseo, New York
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: AndyF]
      12/21/03 08:47 AM

We could have made excuses about him being old, not seeing well, startled, etc... but what it came down to is that we could not trust that he would NEVER bite again and with a 140lb dog that risk is unacceptable.

Andy you had a very hard decision but you are right on the money. There are times when you have to look past your heart and just do the right thing. A big dog can do a lot of damage and being responsible for that is not to be taken lightly.

Just a note on little dogs, my father was bitten at a dog show by a ten pound terrier. He had to have three surgeries on his hand to correct the damage. Dad was looking at the dog to buy for breeding needless to say that did not happen. This same dog later bit a judge and finally was put down.

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Boondox
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 326
Loc: Northern Vermont
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      12/22/03 11:38 AM

This is always a hard decision. Let me preface my response by saying that though my wife and I rescue golden retrievers (and actually specialize in rehabilitating horribly abused goldens), we are not a no-kill organization. We are neither heartless, nor PETA zealots...but we have some firm guidelines in handling rescue dogs.

As a pup, a well-socialized dog will quickly learn that biting hurts its playmates whether canine or human. A pup taken from its litter too soon, wisked hundreds of miles from home in a metal cage and displayed in a pet store has missed a few weeks of critical socialization. Most recover from it, but a few do not. Some of those who do not don't because their humans cage them or isolate them in the backyard where no lessons can be learned, and no socialization takes place. We see a lot of these in rescue. We handle them one of two ways, or sometimes both. (1) I, being the Alpha Male in my pack, will flip the dog upside down and bury my face is his throat, roaring furiously all the time. This is called an alpha roll and is something you can generally get away with on goldens. I would not recommend this unless you know what you're doing (in the Marines we were taught how to handle attacking dogs) and there are some breeds I would never attempt such a thing with. (2) We let our pack of five goldens do the correcting. In fact, if a rescue bares his fangs at me or my wife, two and sometimes three of our dogs will bare theirs and surround the newcomer to protect the human members of the pack. (3) In most cases, abused dogs bite out of fear. In cases like that we humans simply ignore the dog if it is not misbehaving and let our pack do the socializing. Eventually the newcomer will see that no harm ever comes to the others at our hand, and will in his or her own good time initiate a relationship with us. That's the start of the rehab process, and in the vast majority of cases the dog is well enough to place in a new home in a couple of months. All have special needs, and we do our best to meet those needs in potential adopters. (Which is why, in rescue, there is no first-come, first-served. We place dogs in homes that best meet their needs.) If the newcomer does not accept the rules, or at least show progress in respecting boundaries, he or she is euthanized.

Heartless? Maybe. But we deal with a breed known for its gentleness. This makes the aggressive golden an extremely dangerous animal for kids or anyone thinking Cujo is cute and cuddly because of his breed. We're also dealing with the popularity of the breed. Any popular breed is considered a cash crop by unscrupulous backyard breeders who don't give a hoot about anything but how much money each litter will bring. Vet care impacts the bottom line, so that's out of the question. Knowing the genetics of your breeding stock? Why bother when the pups are so cute they'll be out of your hair in two months? And most people who buy from someone with no love of the breed are pretty easy to convince that any behavioral issues are their own doing, that they didn't know how to raise the dog.

Jeez, I'm rambling! The short answer to your question is, IMO, that there are times when a dog should be put down. And the longer answer is that I wish there was a law that made it illegal for certain people to own a dog. Just like a child abuser can never adopt a child.

End of sermon. Pete

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mysticokra
Silver Member

Reged: 03/14/03
Posts: 168
Loc: Jackson County, Al
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Boondox]
      12/22/03 12:16 PM

Boondox,

Thanks for rambling. I enjoyed hearing your techniques for socialization and will remember them for future use.

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gsganzer
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Reged: 07/31/03
Posts: 196
Loc: Denton, TX
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Boondox]
      12/22/03 01:44 PM

I check my dog constantly. When he was a puppy, I'd take his food away from him and see how he reacted (wagging tail), next I had strangers do the same (wagging tail). I've done this with toys, bones etc. and always get the same response (wagging tail). Then I watch how he plays with children, he acts like one of them with a wagging tail. Even the best dog can run short on patience when a kid is pulling his tail and ears, but it should never result in aggressiveness. Most dogs will remove themselves from the annoyance when it becomes too much.

A dog doesn't need to be aggressive to be a good guard dog. Dogs seem to have the uncanny ability to know when someone doesn't belong, is up to no good, or the safety of their owner is in jeopardy and will act accordingly.

I have zero tolerance for an aggressive and unpredictable dog. At the slightest indication of such, I'd be making other arrangements for the dog. I'd either find the dog a new home that suits his personality or euthanize it. The liability is too great.

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tenebrous
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 413
Loc: Geneseo, New York
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: gsganzer]
      12/23/03 10:06 AM

A dog doesn't need to be aggressive to be a good guard dog. Dogs seem to have the uncanny ability to know when someone doesn't belong, is up to no good, or the safety of their owner is in jeopardy and will act accordingly.

I have zero tolerance for an aggressive and unpredictable dog. At the slightest indication of such, I'd be making other arrangements for the dog. I'd either find the dog a new home that suits his personality or euthanize it. The liability is too great.


I agree with the above except for the word aggressive. This maybe just semantics but there are breeds that are naturally aggressive and that is not a bad trait. If being passive is the opposite of being aggressive, then I would have to say that a protective dog has to be aggressive to some extent.

Passive dogs don’t make the first cut in training a dog for protection. I have worked with many dogs that were very aggressive and protective. They are a big responsibility and training is an absolute must. Just because a dog is confident and protective, may be read aggressive, does not mean that they are dangerous. I owe my hide to a very protective GSD that was yes, very aggressive when the situation called for his action. Thunder was also the biggest love you could ever meet and was very good with all children, adults, small dogs and cats. However when he was working, he was that very aggressive dog that everyone feared. He took his job seriously and did it well. He also only bit one person after his training and that was just doing his job again protecting me.

There now is almost a fear of using the word aggressive to describe a dog’s personality. Most times we all hear protective substituted. Socialization and training make an aggressive breed safe to own. On the flip side an untrained dog of the same breed that is aggressive but more so unpredictable is a real danger. As I said it is just semantics. A dangerous dog is still a problem that needs attention. Any dog that bites unpredictably is a serious threat to those who encounter it.





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GERARD
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Reged: 03/08/03
Posts: 103
Loc: upstate NY
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: gsganzer]
      12/23/03 02:46 PM

Lot of good info here. I've always had dogs from puppies so can't speak too much to re-socializing. We have a female rottweiler, small for the breed at 100lbs but we made sure from the start that she knew who was the alpha dog. I can put my face down to her dog dish while eating with complete saftey. Take the food away, give it back etc. We started that when she was a puppy and think you should be able to do that with any dog. As mentioned, you'r need for caution increases as the dog gets bigger. A dachsund bite may be inconvenient but a rotty latching onto your arm and shaking like a rag doll can cause some serious damage. And no matter HOW well you have an animal trained I'm NEVER comfortable leaving them unattended around small children. Dogs don't identify kids as superior to them because they are on the same level and all a kid has to do is poke an eye, pull an ear etc.

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Hank
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 450
Loc: near Wickenburg AZ
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: GERARD]
      12/23/03 07:50 PM

I can put my face down to her dog dish while eating with complete saftey. Take the food away, give it back etc. We started that when she was a puppy and think you should be able to do that with any dog.

This is the only way it should be. All of our dogs, including our Police K-9, follow this rule. They underststand "drop it" and do so. They will yield with anything they consider food.

Of course the down side is they bring you a lizard or a snake or mouse and say "do you want this too"


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Handyman
Gold Member

Reged: 11/01/02
Posts: 259
Loc: Tenn. USA
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Hank]
      12/24/03 01:34 AM

Thanks for all the good responses.

Since my post where I was distraught over this dog that I became so attached with, I have been watching him and thinking what went wrong last Thurs and Fri when he bit me. (yes, 2 times)

Keep in mind he is a 4 yr old rescue that has a lot of radical changes since the death of both his owners.

Charlie's issue is defiance and social manners.

Since our last round as much as I hate to admit of "losing it" after he drew blood, he has since began showing true signs of submission or acceptance of me being alfa male and where his place is. He looks at me for acknowledgment when he's not sure, not in a cowaring way , but in a respective way. He has began showing signs of respecting me as the alfa male and responding to my commands .
Today he actually came to me and pestered me for personal attention... before I had a chance to lay down on the couch, he was there and he laid up by my chest instead of my feet which he never has done to this before.

He has began responding to me when I make a certain sound when he becomes overly excited and calms right down. When he starts with his mouthing and I just hold his mussle and say no bite and he responds now and calms right down. I even noticed a radical change in his playing... He's careful to how he reacts, not as aggressive, but still playfull.

I guess what I am saying is it seems that after that last incident, he seen the light. His whole demeaner has change. He seems to have a new found respect if that could be said (I do too with what he's capible of)
Now I have to work with his social manners with others, but first things first.

What is unusual about this little boston is when his shackles are up and he's raising total hell.. he's just putting on a show that results in just wanting to be friends and some attention, but you would never know it. HOWEVER, when he is quiet, no barking or growing, no actual signs that I've noticed is when he nips at other larger dogs. I "think" this is more of bad social behaviour or lack of.
I suspect that I'm dealing with several problems/issues at once where I need to address one at a time and who's the boss is # 1.

Right now he has done a complete 180, so time will tell. If he regresses, I'll do what I have to.

Can you say 4 legged parahnna ?


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tenebrous
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 413
Loc: Geneseo, New York
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      12/24/03 09:35 AM

Sounds like you have turned a big corner. Just don't let down and continue to socialize him carefully.

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FullCircleStable
New Member

Reged: 03/11/03
Posts: 7
Loc: Southern New Jersey
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: tenebrous]
      01/01/04 05:44 PM

Hiya Handyman,

You have met our blue heeler Bart. We had a biting problem when Mike first came into my life and moved into the house.

Bart too is a trucking dog and has been riding in an 18-wheeler from the time he was 6 weeks old spending 24/7 with only me. Bart totally resented this new intruder (Mike) into our lives and made it very clear. Everything from not letting him in the bedroom to challenging for a spot next to me on the couch. Biting, nips, growling, barking you name it.

We contacted a dog trainer who said that Mike had to assert his alfa male status in the house and show Bart that he called the shots. For 2 months everything Bart needed had to be asked for and only Mike could give it to him, food, treats, fresh water, belly scratches and any aggession was not to be tolerated no matter how slight. If Bart decided to show his hateful side Mike had to hold Barts head down on the floor for about 20 seconds and softly say 'Bad Dog'. This established Mikes role as the alpa male. It did take some time but we have it all together now.

The following artical I cut and pasted for some prespective. This happened only about 45 miles from where we live. Sad case indeed.






Posted on Thu, Sep. 11, 2003

Dog's shelter faces criminal probe
The adopted Doberman killed its Medford owner. The police chief vowed an aggressive investigation.
By Troy Graham
Inquirer Staff Writer

Burlington County authorities have launched a criminal investigation into an animal shelter that allowed a Medford woman to adopt a Doberman pinscher that was supposed to have been euthanized for biting its previous owner.

The dog mauled and killed its new owner, 67-year-old Valerie deSwart, in her Stokes Road home Sunday, just 10 days after she adopted him from a Newark, N.J., shelter run by the Associated Humane Societies.

The Doberman's previous owner, a North Jersey woman, paid the shelter $55 to put down and cremate the 95-pound dog after it bit her this year. Instead, the shelter placed the dog in a pool for adoption.

"We are aggressively pursuing the investigation for a criminal nature," Medford Police Chief Edwin E. Wood said. "We need to do an aggressive, complete investigation. That's owed to the victim and her family."

He said his investigators had interviewed the dog's previous owner and confirmed that the dog had attacked her. He declined to identify her.

Wood said he intended to have the dog destroyed. The dog's legal owner - deSwart's daughter - can appeal the decision, he said, but she has agreed that the Doberman should be euthanized.

Wood could not say who might face criminal charges in the case or provide a timetable for completing the investigation.

"That would be fact-specific. It could be individuals," he said. "It depends on involvement, acts."

Robert D. Bernardi, the Burlington County prosecutor, said that "at a minimum there's a breach of contract" by the shelter for not euthanizing the dog - although, he said, that is a matter for the civil courts.

"There may be an issue of theft by deception," he said. "If they took money never intending to kill the dog - and you can prove that - there's a theft charge."

Harry Jay Levin, a lawyer for the Associated Humane Societies, said the shelter simply had made a mistake by not destroying the 3-year-old Doberman. He said Tuesday that three shelter employees had told deSwart in person that the dog had bitten its previous owner.

The woman's son disputed that, saying his mother "would have never brought it home" had she known.

DeSwart's boyfriend discovered her dead in her bedroom when he came home from work. The dog, which deSwart had named Luger, was covered in blood and lying on a comforter in the room.

Investigators treated the case as a homicide until an autopsy determined Monday that deSwart had died from a dog bite.

The shelter is examining Luger's adoption "from beginning to end" and "speaking to every employee who had a hand in the process," Levin said. The shelter has instituted more layers of safeguards, but it had not determined why the Doberman was allowed to be adopted.

Levin also said he did not know why shelter employees, who knew the dog had a history of biting, did not realize that it was supposed to have been euthanized.

"That's the issue we're trying to determine," Levin said. "What mistake was made by a human being that allowed this to happen?"

Levin said he did not know of a similar mistake ever taking place at the shelter.

"Never. Absolutely never," he said. "They've been in business for 30 years, they handle about 15,000 animals a year, and this is the first time."

He also said deSwart, before adopting the dog, had signed a disclaimer that provides no warranties "with regards to the health or demeanor" of the animal. While the disclaimer provides the shelter with some protection from lawsuits, Levin would not address the liability in this case.

"Everyone's so upset about what happened," he said. "I don't think anyone's focusing on liability."

Martha Armstrong, senior vice president at the Humane Societies of the United States, said her group urged all shelters not to put up for adoption animals with a history of biting.

"Everybody who attends one of our training programs knows that if you get a call about an animal that has bitten, you do not tell them: 'Bring them in, and we'll find them a new home,' " she said.

In New Jersey, there are no regulations regarding how shelters handle an animal surrendered by an owner.

"It's really a management decision as to whether the dog is fit for adoption," said Jennifer Sciortino, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Health and Senior Services.

The dog that killed deSwart was at the Newark shelter for 87 days and did not show any aggressiveness, which might explain why it was allowed to be adopted, Levin said.

But Armstrong said the Newark shelter had "a moral responsibility, if not a legal responsibility," to euthanize the dog.

"That's a bit disconcerting, that the data on the animal that said he was supposed to be euthanized was not accompanying the data that said he had bitten," she said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contact staff writer Troy Graham at 856-779-3893 or tgraham@phillynews.com.


Everything in life comes full circle, it's just a matter of time.

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Pat
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: FullCircleStable]
      01/04/04 09:28 AM

Dogs literally exist to serve at man's pleasure. They are not 4 legged people even though some don't know that.) Although treated as children, surrogate or otherwise, they are as much creations of man as they are decendants of Asian wolves. Man has to take the responsibility for taming the wolf and bringing it into the cave. It is truly an awesome responsibility and everyone involved with dogs should realize their ulltimate control remains in killing the dog that doesn't or can't ultimately conform sufficiently to a man supplied environmental circumstance.

If you aren't willing to accept this ulltimate responsibility then you should forgo the pleasure of the company of dogs.

There is a lot of indiscriminate breeding , buying, trafficing in dogs. There are TOO MANY dogs. Too many dogs being abused through acts of comission as well as omission. Dogs are not that far removed from wolves, irrespective of the modified appearance and when you bring a dog into your life or a social situation with other people you are accepting a terrible responsibility for the consequences if any of a number of things go wrong. When it works out well, it is a joy unachieved by virtually any other means. When it goes bad we are responsible to others to act in a manner consistent with the safety of others, even if that means (use whatever euphamisn you prefer) put down, put to sleep, whatever, KILL the dog. We have to accept the responsibility that we are literally playing god with the lives of these cosmetically modified wolves and that we bury our mistakes.

This sounds harsh, I know but it is the botom line when things go bad. We can squirm and whine, hire others to do it "HUMANELY" and wish it were not thus but it falls to us humans to destroy our creation if it doesn't or can't suit our purpose. The alternative is life in prison with no parole. Yes you could institutionalize dogs rather than euthanize (note how euthanize slips so easily off the tongue and sounds so much more compassionate than KILL?) the animal.

It is unrealistic to think that the majority of people who will become dog owners will understand and accept their responsibility. More and more I see dogs treated like a stuffed toy that runs on whatever dog food is currently on discount instead of batteries. If it becomes inconvenient for any reason such as growing out of puppyhood, give it away or take to to the pound.

Most dog problems are people problems.

Pet 'em if you got 'em..

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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Handyman
Gold Member

Reged: 11/01/02
Posts: 259
Loc: Tenn. USA
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Pat]
      01/05/04 12:25 AM

Pat, good post... strong yes, but good...

It's been a couple weeks now since the incident and things are getting better. he is actually becoming more affectionate.

Charlie was a rescue that I obtained. This dog should have never have been adopted out or atleast they should have done their home work more efficiently. Now I'm having to that the ultimate responsibility and rehabilitate this dog or put him down. He is a very remarkable dog and I would hate to see him go by way of doggy heaven because of his previous owners.

He is coming around nicely, but not without some hard times.

You are correct when you say we have to take responsibility. You musy interact with your pets or they will go wild or atleast be unsocialable and unpredictable.

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Pat
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      01/05/04 07:42 AM

Handyman, I applaud your approach and efforts to "save" a dog. There are just entirely too many "pets" in our country that are ill treated out of ignorance or worse. I respect the efforts of you and others who "rescue" animals from euthanasia, where possible. A good friend of mine had 8 dogs till a couple got so old and feeble they were "put down." The remaining 6 are all younger rescued dogs from "caged" breeding operations, puppy factories. They literally had no life but forced breeding in a small cage before being rescued and it has taken a lot of time and effort to socialize them. They are some kind of long bodied short legged pug nosed long haired Chinese lap dog that can be ever so cute and affectionate when successfuly rehabilitated.

I also have a friend who participates in wild animal rescue and has raised everything from humingbirds to red tailed hawks (lisc falconer) etc. If it falls out of a tree or gets found on a porch, she gets it whether feeathered, furred, scaled, or otherwise. A good portion are euthanized after the "bringer" leaves because they can't be saved but she saves quite a few. These are mother mature's creatures, mostly out of our control. Dogs are a creation of man and are in way too much supply. It is encumbent on man to solve the problem. While some segments of our society are encouraging or allowing uncontrolled breeding (Why neuter, my animal is male and can't get pregnant!) others are trying to control the flood of overpopulation of unwanted animals. At best, only a fraction of candidates will successfully be placed in acceptable situations and the others will be ulltimately euthanized or contribute to the overpopulation problem.

Again, my hat is off to you and the others who use their personal time and resources to try to lessen the suffering and improve the situation. Likewise, the landowners who "take in" horses and burros so they have a life.



Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


Edited by Pat (01/05/04 07:43 AM)

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Currmudgeon
New Member

Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10
Loc: NW Indiana
Re: Bittting dogs new [re: Handyman]
      01/07/04 05:20 PM

In reply to:

he is a 4 yr old rescue that has a lot of radical changes since the death of both his owners.




How long have you had the dog? A "new" adult dog can need a certain amount of transition to learn to bond with its new pack and to learn who is the top dog. That should be you.

In reply to:

Charlie's issue is defiance and social manners.




Are you familiar with the NILIF program? It stands for Nothing In Life Is Free. There are several websites and books on the subject. They claim it is dog training. Actually, it is more of an owner training program, but it works. We use a sort of informal NILIF with all our dogs. The dog works for everything, for its meals, for the privelege of playing woth your toyws (the dog has no toys, they're yours) For scratches and cuddles. These are done on your command and the dog must earn them. It really reinforces the roles of the dog and the human.

Obedience, obedience, obedience. I consider it to be a panacea. I can't think of a problem that isn't improved with formal obedience training. The dog doesn't need to jump through flaming hoops or dance the tango, but should learn, and be drilled in standard heeling, sits, stays, down stays, the standard lot. This reinforces the bond between the dog and the owner, and reinforces the fact that you are on the handle end of the leash, and the dog is on the snap end. More importantly, it allows the dog to succeed, thereby earning praise and pack esteem.

In reply to:

he has since began showing true signs of submission or acceptance of me being alfa male and where his place is. He looks at me for acknowledgment when he's not sure, not in a cowaring way , but in a respective way. He has began showing signs of respecting me as the alfa male and responding to my commands .




That is a good sign. That indicates that, whatever you are doing, it's working.

In reply to:

What is unusual about this little boston is when his shackles are up and he's raising total hell.. he's just putting on a show




Hackling is usually, but not universally, a sign of fear. A fearful dog is a dangerous dog. If the dog is biting from fear, then you have a situation that will probably get worse. I generally suggest putting fear biters down.

In reply to:

no actual signs that I've noticed is when he nips at other larger dogs.




This may be an area where formal training with a trainer is warranted. That way, you can set up controlled situations for the dog to screw up and correct them under control. This can be hard to do "in the wild." It's not polite to use strange dogs as bait. And the training point is kinda lost when you are attempting to protect your dog from that rottweiler he just antagonized.

As far as whether it is necessary to have the dog destroyed, it's always a judgement call. If the dog can reasonably expected to be a hazard to life and limb, then it must be destroyed. If you have a high level of confidence that you can protect your "bad dog" from the stimuli that cause problems, then it may not be necessary. A friend had a German Shepherd Dog that had grown aggressive. Rather than putting it down, they were able to place it on a friend's bear garm. The grizzlies can take care of themselves. In the same circumstances, I would have had to put the animal down. In fact, we did so with a similar animal from the same bloodlines. It was too untrustworthy.


-Dennis

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.


Edited by Currmudgeon (01/07/04 05:20 PM)

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