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Mosey
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Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
09/18/02 12:16 PM
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We have 2 kittens that we got when they were about 8 weeks old. They live outdoors (if this offends anyone, then please just stop reading this post. I tried posting a question like this on another forum and got lectured about how cruel I was to make them live outdoors. I'm not going to have them in the house, so please don't lecture me, it won't do any good). We've had them for over 3 months now.
They had already been "trained" (I'm finding out that "training cats" is an oxymoron) to use kitty litter. We are trying to get them to use a pile of sand near the edge of the woods, which is about 100 feet from the house. They like sand. I know that because this pile of sand came from the sandbox and they were using it. We didn't know it because we thought we had it covered well enough, but they were finding a way to squeeze in under the tarp. We removed all of the sand, dumped it at the edge of the woods, put in new sand, and made a new cover out of wood that they can't get under. We don't want them using the flower beds around the house due to the smell and the fact that we work in there with our hands. I have been trying to gradually move the kitty litter tub until it's at the edge of the woods and then once they're used to going there just eliminating the kitty litter.
Well, things are not going well at all. I was told by several sources that they won't go anywhere they can't cover it up afterwards. But, for a while we found cat crap in the yard, in the breezeway, and in the garage. We finally got them cured of that by scolding them and taking them to the litter box frequently. We thought things were going good until one day about 3 weeks ago when I found cat crap under a bush in a flower bed next to the house. We can't tell if it's just one or both of them. We take them out to the litter box 2 or 3 times a day, so they know where it is. We keep it covered with a cover I fabricated out some metal (sort of like a miniature carport) so the kitty litter stays dry. I'm at a loss as to what to do. We have put chicken wire under the bush and they crap on top of it. We put screen there and they crap on top of that too. They don't seem to care that they can't cover it up. When we find the crap, which is every day, we get the cats, show them the pile and scold them (we don't hit them or spank them), scoop up the crap and take the cats and the crap to the litter box and show them where it's supposed to go. This has been going on for weeks now.
If I would have known cats are this stupid I would never have gotten them! I have spent a lot of time and effort trying to make this work. I built them a nice house and have treated them well, but they just don't seem to be able to figure out such a simple thing as where they should go to take a dump! One suggestion I got was that they don't want to walk that far. I realize that it's anyone's nature to take the easy way, but total defiance is not going to cut it around here. I'm not going to keep spending money on cat food if they don't start co-operating!
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hazmat
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
09/18/02 12:29 PM
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When we find the crap, which is every day, we get the cats, show them the pile and scold them
You're wasting your time with the "scolding". You've got to catch them in the act.
How about keeping the litter box closeby and emptying it in the woods?
Hazmat
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: hazmat]
09/18/02 12:53 PM
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How about keeping the litter box closeby and emptying it in the woods?
We've actually already tried that. We had the litter box about 30 feet from the house, under a tree. The problem was the smell. It's very humid here in Indiana, so the kitty litter stayed damp, even though it didn't get rained on, and it just didn't absorb the smell. We'd have to clean it out every day, which is not an option, we have better things to do than clean up after a cat all the time. That's why I wanted to get it farther from the house. My neighbor had an outdoor cat (that died of old age last year) and he said she never had a problem with going that from the house.
If we lived in a drier climate, your idea would probably work. Hmmm, maybe now I have a good excuse to move back to Colorado!
Does anyone have any ideas on how to catch them in the act? I certainly can't just sit and watch them all day! Do they always go at certain times, or is it random?
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Trev
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
09/18/02 01:23 PM
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Hi Danny,
I doubt this will help, but who knows..
We have slowly acquired six cats, and they all are free to go in and out as they want via a cat door. What initially irked me was that they would come in, use the litter box, and then go back outside. I was always thinking, gee, thanks guys, I really want to clean this litter box! But then, slowly, I noticed I had to clean it less and less often. I have no idea where they are going now, but I've never run across any kitty droppings.
The only thing I can suggest is that cats are incredibly ideosyncratic. One cat never covers it up in the litter box, the others always do. A neighbor has a cat who will only use the litter box if it's in a specific room.. nowhere else! If it isn't in that room, he'll do it on the floor. Go figure.
Maybe you should consult a professional animal trainer of some kind? The local veterinarian might know of one, or might have suggestions him/herself. I've always found that I expend less total energy if I adapt to the cat's behavior than if I try to get them to adapt to mine. But I'm a sucker for cats. 
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Hayseed
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: hazmat]
09/18/02 01:30 PM
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I would not dump too much litter in the woods. My experience with litter is that it will not dissolve or go away. At least not in a short period of time. You keep dumping litter in the woods and you are just going to end up with a nasty pile that will eventually have to be dealt with in another way (scooping it up and hauling it off, burying it, etc.)
Chris
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rocky2
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
09/18/02 02:01 PM
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Cat poop. Now there's a topic. I must be lucky, both of our cats who were taken in as stray kittens never left any tootsie rolls anywhere they shouldn't have. They say kittens are "trained" on bathroom etiquette by their mom. Since our cats are in and out cats, I don't really know where they go. Their litter box is really only used by them in the winter when they don't want to poop ouside in the cold. It also has been moved not only from upstairs, but to the basement, from one house to another. We show them where it's at once and they find it when the need to. They both seem to rush to the door shortly after finishing their dinner, so that may be the time to take them to the litter box/area and watch their little cat butts. Repetition, repetition, repetition.
I don't think scolding a cat works like with a dog. You never really own a cat, THEY just decide to spend time hanging around YOU.
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Hank
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Trev]
09/19/02 05:44 AM
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The only thing I can suggest is that cats are incredibly ideosyncratic
I'd have to agree on that one! Worked for over 20 years in a woodworking shop, with anywhere from 6 - 16 cats at a time (but no mice). Most of them preferred to crap near the edge of a sawdust/shavings pile and cover it up there. Of course, you had to be careful when you needed shavings for your own use  Lots of customers would come in for free shavings, but we never warned them; they sort of learned on their own.
One cat, however, would just crap right on the bare concrete floor, every time. The floor in such a shop was never completely bare, always at least a very thin film of sawdust from sanding. She would go through all the motions of covering it up, making a complete circle around the pile to "gather" sawdust; you could see the prints of her "strokes", kind of like spokes in a circle.
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Hank]
09/19/02 08:01 AM
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"One cat, however, would just crap right on the bare concrete floor, every time. The floor in such a shop was never completely bare, always at least a very thin film of sawdust from sanding. She would go through all the motions of covering it up, making a complete circle around the pile to "gather" sawdust; you could see the prints of her "strokes", kind of like spokes in a circle."
Next time someone tells me how "smart" cats are, I'll tell them that story!
Things are looking up now though. I'm using a combination of mothballs in the flower bed and more fencing to keep them out of there. Meanwhile, I'm using a suggestion from someone that worked perfect this morning! After being fed they get locked in their house for a few hours. I let them out and carried them back to the woods where the sand pile and litter box is. Tiger, the male, went right away and got praised and treats right away. Tiny, the female, putted around for a while, didn't want to use the nice clean kitty litter or the nice soft sand, but finally went a little farther into the woods and took a dump there. She got praised as though she just won the MVP of the Superbowl and she got treats! Only time will tell how long this success will last, but at least it's progress.
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
09/20/02 08:29 AM
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Not so good this morning! One of them went in their house. I took Tiger out to the sand pile and he didn't go, so no treats and back in their house for him! I took Tiny out there and she went in the sand pile, so she got treats and got to stay out and play. I'm going to have to partition their house into 2 rooms so I can tell for sure who did it next time this happens.
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tenebrous
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Hank]
09/23/02 04:48 PM
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Hi Hank,
I have your cats sister or at least mine has the same brain cell as yours. She is an indoor cat but does the same routine in my shop. Not in the rest of the house just my shop.
She is fine as long as I keep her out of the shop but if she can get in there she leaves me a present.
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
09/24/02 09:07 AM
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Mosey,
Forget about trying to train your cats where to go outside. We have 2 indoor cats and 8 outdoor cats. The indoor cats will use the litter box 95% of the time... the other 5% is a mystery. The box hasn't moved, the dogs haven't bothered them. My theory is their just vindictive little bxxxxrds.
Our 8 outdoor cats have two barns to live in, both with litter boxes. They will use the litter boxes 60% of the time, the other 40% they will use my wife's flower beds. No amount of scolding has changed this behavior. I think they're ticked off because their not allowed inside.
Good luck, Doug
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: fireman_dcb]
09/24/02 01:59 PM
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I'll see how it works out in the long run, but it's going pretty well right now. When Tiger went in his house that one time, I put him back in there and didn't clean it out right away so he had to smell it all morning! He was not a happy cat that morning! I put a partition in their house so they each have their own room now, but so far neither has pooped in their house again. They have learned that if they poop in the sand, they get treats and get to stay out and play, but if they don't poop they don't get treats and have to go back in their house. The last few days have been very good. I lock them in their house at night and give them each a few treats in order to get them to like going into their house at night. The next morning I let them out and we all go for a walk to the sand pile. They have each pooped in the sand and got treats for 3 days in a row now. I put the treats on the metal cover that I put over the litter box full of kitty litter to keep it dry (but they haven't used the litter box for a week, they prefer the sand now). They try to trick me by just digging around in the sand and then coming to get their treats, but they are finding out that there are no treats there if they don't actually poop. Tiger is funny, he thought that if he helped Tiny cover her poop up, then he would get a treat - didn't work though!
Keeping them locked in their house at night has been the key to this success. That way I know where they are at night and know they aren't pooping in the flower bed. I'm not being cruel either by making them hold it. If they were suffering because of that then they would poop immediately after getting let out, but they don't. They both play around for about 5 minutes first. I also don't feed them a lot at night, I feed them the most in the morning. Another good thing about keeping them locked in their house at night is that I know they aren't out in the woods while the coyotes are running around.
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AndyF
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
09/24/02 07:16 PM
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If they are outside cats, why do you have a litter box? We've kept our cat outside for the past few years, ever since he brought a half dead rabbit into the kitchen, and other than having to cover up the kid's sandbox have never had any problems worth talking about. He can come and go as he pleases and while he generally sticks around the house there are times when he goes hunting out in the field.
If your cats are male, get them fixed, otherwise they'll start spraying soon and that will be a real stinky problem.
Cats can be vindictive, so they might be getting back at you for locking them up at night. Night is prime time for them to hunt and do all of the other things cats do, so you might want to let them wander at night.
One thing you might also want to do though is to keep their food inside except when they are eating. We used to keep a food bowl out all the time, but after having several cats try to adopt us, we had to go to a more restricted feeding program.
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: AndyF]
09/25/02 08:11 AM
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AndyF - "If they are outside cats, why do you have a litter box?".
They had already been trained to use kitty litter. We are trying to retrain them to use a pile of sand near the edge of the woods. It finally seems to be working. They haven't used the litter box in a week and prefer the sand now.
Your luckier than I am with not having problems. We've had all kinds of problems with them. Even though they have a nice sand pile and litter box to use, they insisted on using the flower bed (even after we covered it with chicken wire and screen so they couldn't dig) and yard, even though they couldn't cover it up. We have moth balls in the flower bed now, so they have been leaving it alone. They have quit using the yard due to the "training" I've been putting them through (see the earlier post on 09/19/02 08:01 AM
in this thread). Every morning I let them out of their house and the 3 of us take a walk to the sand pile and for 4 days straight now, they have crapped in the sand pile.
One is a male and one is a female. They will both get fixed when they get old enough in a couple more months.
Yes, they can hunt at night, but they can also be hunted!
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/01/02 08:38 AM
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Here's an update for anyone who's interested. Every morning I let them out of their house and the 3 of us take a walk to the sand pile and for 9 days straight now, they have pooped in the sand pile. Until this morning. Tiger pooped in his house. I know it was him this time, because I have the partition in there and it was on his side. He pushed his padding and blanket all to one corner and then went on the floor. He wasn't in there as long as he was the previous 2 nights, so I don't know why he picked this morning to do it. He'll be left in there to smell it for a few hours again like last time. Tiny went in the sand like she has been for the 10th straight time and she got treats and got to stay out.
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Hank
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/01/02 08:49 AM
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Thanks for the update; I was just thinking of this thread last night.
And, after a year's worth of consecutive success, they'll turn independent on you again and go in the flower beds
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Hank]
10/01/02 10:58 AM
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You're probably right Hank! I will admit one thing - getting the kids cats for pets was a mistake. They don't make good pets for kids (or for adults as far as I'm concerned). They are not very playful, don't come when called, etc. All they want to do is lay around and sleep all day. They are independent, belligerent, not very smart, and seem to have very short memories. They also haven't caught a mouse yet. I've taken them back to where there is a wood pile and some stuff I have stored that are covered with tarps. I've seen mice there many times, but they never catch one. These are certainly the last cats I will ever have around!
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pbenven
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/01/02 11:09 AM
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If you've got a barn with animals and feed, they are certainly worth keeping - but as permanent residents of said building. I agree, though about keeping them as pets - never in my house.
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rocky2
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/01/02 02:07 PM
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"not very playful, don't come when called, etc. All they want to do is lay around...independent, belligerent, not very smart, and seem to have very short memories. "
Geez, sounds like what my ex-wife told her attorney.
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/02/02 08:52 AM
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OK, I rank cats below cows on the intelligence scale now. Yesterday when Tiger had to stay in there with it in the morning he managed to get it all over him and made a complete mess of himself and the inside of his house. My wife had the honors of cleaning it all out and giving him a bath, which he did not like at all. Any animal with any intelligence would have learned its lesson. But, this morning Tiger pooped in his house again! I took him to the sand pile last night and put them in their house an hour later than normal. I got them out a half hour earlier than normal this morning. So, they weren't in there as long at night as they were all last week when everything was going great. Tiny had no trouble extending her record to 11 straight days of going in the sand pile. I rinsed the inside of the house out and he will spend the rest of the morning in there again and not be fed as punishment, while Tiny already got fed and gets to stay out and play.
So, we have one cat, Tiny, that is very boring, hardly plays at all and just lays around all day, but at least she can figure out not to crap in her house. And, we have another cat, Tiger, who is more playful, but can't figure out not to crap in his house. Neither has ever caught a mouse and I know there are mice around. When I first got these cats someone suggested I should not have, and they were right!
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/03/02 07:52 AM
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Well, we decided to quit locking the cats in their house at night. We'll just have to take our chances on whether they get attacked by coyotes or something else at night. That's the way it's going to have to be if we go on vacation anyway. Where they poop remains to be seen (and smelled!). Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll both wander off and never come back.
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AndyF
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/03/02 08:00 AM
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Your cats will be a lot happier now and I'd bet your problems will start to go away. The thing to remember with cats is that they aren't dogs. They are willing to take food from us and live in the same place we do, but thats it. Most can't be trained to come when called or to do tricks. However, even if you don't see carcasses around rest assured that they are hunting and busily killing and eating as many birds and rodents as they can catch.
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Mosey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: AndyF]
10/03/02 09:46 AM
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AndyF - I hope you're right. But, I'm not optimistic.
I was unaware that cats are nocturnal. They were still here when I left for work this morning. I have no idea where they were all night. I didn't take them out to the sand pile or feed them or anything this morning. I've decided to disown them - I have better things to do with my time! My wife and kids can deal with them from now on.
I'll keep the moth balls in the flower beds and hope that keeps them out. I have no idea what I'm going to do if I find poop in the yard or flower bed again. It will probably take 2 strong men to hold me back and keep me from strangling them!
Anyway, thanks for your help and ideas. Unfortunately, cats are just not trainable.
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Inspector507
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
10/03/02 06:49 PM
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Danny,
Cats just allow you to share their home, not the other way around
Jerry
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Whiskey
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Re: Cats, I'm trying to make this work out, but ...
[re: Mosey]
11/26/02 01:54 PM
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Mosey:
I've sat her with tears rolling down my face from laughting at this, give it up!....train a cat...never!!!!...you may win some battles but the cats will win the war...
psssst a little tip for ya "pets" have owners...cats have servents...
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