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OkieG
Member

Reged: 09/14/02
Posts: 42
Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy?
      12/27/02 11:19 AM

Just finished having our septic tank pumped and the drain pipes snaked for a blockage.
Other than being careful about what we flush, what are some good ways to keep the septic bacteria healthy and happy?

What I learned was, there are store bought products that renew the bacteria/enzymes that help break down solids. Apparently, they must be applied regularly, since the soaps we flush can kill them. One of the septic guys suggested filling the kitchen sink with warm water before going to bed. And add a packet of baker's yeast with a little sugar to activate it. Then, in the morning let it go down the drain. He said he cleaned an elderly couples tank who did that twice a month and there was no scum cap floating in the tank. He said the scum cap indicates poor bacterial action.

Anybody have any methods that have worked well? We have no access to the inflow side of our septic tank (under concrete steps) and better bacteria management might help limit visits from the Snake Master.

OkieG


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beenthere
Gold Member

Reged: 09/30/02
Posts: 343
Loc: midwest
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      12/27/02 12:09 PM

I think there are lists of things that should be avoided, mostly being the "anti-bacterial" things we buy. Other than that, pumping every other year (required in this area by the county) is the best bet. Your suggestion about the yeast routine sounds better (or just as good as) than buying chemicals (which I have never done and my tank is working well after 35 years).

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RichZ
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 558
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      12/27/02 01:00 PM

Greatly limit the amount of bleach you use in washing clothes. Powdered detergents also cause the buildup of solids. Don't use those automatic toilet bowl cleaners, that are released with every flush. And adding the bacterial cultures every month is essential. I've always used Rid-X, but I suspect they're all the same. I've never had to pump a septic system in any house I've lived in. The longest I've had a house was 20 years, and I never had to pump the system.

Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."

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beenthere
Gold Member

Reged: 09/30/02
Posts: 343
Loc: midwest
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: RichZ]
      12/27/02 01:12 PM

The county health department requires all septic systems to be pumped every two years. I'm not sure what it means that you "never" pump yours. I've nevr heard that as a recommendation for a healthy septic system. Inspection of the sytem is done also at the time of pumping.

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RichZ
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 558
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: beenthere]
      12/27/02 01:17 PM

In New York, pumping is not a requirement. If a septic system is healthy, it will digest most solids, and allow water to re-enter the groundwater. If the system is working properly, you have no problems with it. Eventually most systems do need pumping depending on how much wastes settle, but if your system is working very efficiently, that pumping can be extremely infrequent. The reason many areas require pumping, is that most people do not make any attempt to maitain their septic system.

Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."

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beenthere
Gold Member

Reged: 09/30/02
Posts: 343
Loc: midwest
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: RichZ]
      12/27/02 01:38 PM

And what is the way that one can tell if pumping is needed?

After the solids start to flow out the outlet and plug up the drain field? Too late!

IMO, there is something missing in your logic. A septic system is not something to let go until the problem (needing pumping) is evident by something undesireable backing up into your house.

I really don't want to disagree with you, as I feel if you want to take the risk, that is certainly your prerogative. However, for those tuned into this thread, I think not pumping is way to risky as a recommendation for a septic system owner's plan.

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RichZ
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 558
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: beenthere]
      12/27/02 01:43 PM

You may be right, but in most cases I've heard of, if the drains are slow it's time to pump, and there will be no damage to the system.



Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."

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LazyJ_Arabians
Gold Member

Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 343
Loc: Central Arkansas
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: RichZ]
      12/27/02 02:54 PM

When to pump? Get a 3/4" piece of clear plastic tube 8 ft long and tape it to a stiff rod. Once a year open the access on the input side of the tank when there hasn't been any input for several hours to stir things up. Stick in the "sludge judge", plug the end and pull it out and take a reading. I pump at 3' of sludge which for a family of 4 amounts to about every 4-5 years.

As far as tank health, I know several people who flush a bucket full of fresh livestock manure several times a year. Kinda makes sense since a herbivore's digestive system is bacteria-based. I simply make it a practice to keep as much grease out of the system as I can, trash instead of flush most used toilet paper, AND eat plenty of fiber.

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pbenven
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 198
Loc: QC, Canada
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      12/27/02 10:20 PM

I feel for you, buddy. I just did the same thing to mine this morning. It blocked on Tuesday - pretty bad timing.

Every time there's a severe thaw, the ground water rises above the leach field. This prevents effluent from leaving the tank and causes solids to sit in the inlet pipe, about 15 feet before it. Because it takes time for the ground to reach normal sturation levels, the solids are left behind in the pipe and cause a nasty sludge blockage. It was so bad this time, that even when the end of the snake was visible in the tank (through the cleanout hole), there was no water that followed. The sludge would immediately fill the hole created by the snake.

My solution was a last ditch effort. I wired the end of our garden hose to the end of the snake and pushed down until I felt resistance. I turned on the water and blew everything out.

This happens way to frequently and I suspect that the old inlet pipe has seen better days. I'll be doing something drastic in the near future. I can get my hands on some commercial, acid-based drain pipe cleaner. I'll dump that down my clean-out trap and let it sit for a bit. I'll then run the water for awhile and then follow that up with a couple of boxes of baking soda to neutralize the acid. Last step is to rebuild the bacteria I wiped out in step one with one of those packaged septic system maintenance products.

This is definitely not the best way to spend your Christmas holidays. I'm just so happy that I have a wife who has the guts to help me out with this type of thing. Quite a trooper.

Some things we do to try to help:

- Use liquid laundry detergent
- Space the laundry chores out - not all on one day
- don't throw harsh chemicals down there (bleach)

and, best for last

- explain to unknowing visitors what they can't flush down your toilet! Is it coincidence that these problems started right after my in-laws left this weekend?

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robertn
Silver Member

Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 236
Loc: Shingle Springs, Calif
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      12/29/02 01:56 PM

Unless you use a "Lager" yeast, adding yeast will not help. It won't hurt, but...

Most yeasts work from the high 60's and up. Too warm can kill the yeast too, or will cause off flavors(in beer at least).

You septic tank is in the ground, and its contents will be at ground temperature. Like a root cellar, it will be on the cool side. Most yeasts, including baking yeast, simply won't work in that temperature.

We just had our tank pumped, after 7 years. It had 5" of scum, which the pumper said is a good indication of time to pump(anything 5" or over I think he said...). He pointed out where there was buildups from powder laundry and dishwasher detergent. He gave us a "Box of Bugs" to use, and said to use them once each year. He said they are the same bacteria as used by municipal districts.

We had our tank pumped because of smell. He could not find anything wrong in the tank or lines. He indicated a lot of folks have problems with odor coming from the house vents. In our case, we'd use the spa in the evening, and could smell odor, hence having the tank pumped. He said it is common, and is cause by cool in of the air and gasses in the evening, causeing the air to drop. Makes sense from my limited chemistry. They sell carbon filters that go on the vents just for that reason.

These guys are well known in the county. They recomend pumping every 7 years or there abouts, for the reason if you wait too long, and it backs into the leach field it is WAY more expensive than the pumping.

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Inspector507
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 361
Loc: Central Ohio
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: robertn]
      12/29/02 06:22 PM

For those of you who may have a problem with a wet leach field, I used this and it really worked to dry the area.
Terra Lift or
Terra Lift International
It will even work if you just have a wet area of your lawn you want to dry up.
I had it done 2 years ago when there was black,standing,stinky "water" in my front lawn.

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Stoneheartfarm
Veteran Member

Reged: 10/10/02
Posts: 792
Loc: West Central Michigan
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      12/29/02 07:32 PM

I believe the recommended duration between pumpings is 5 years. Avoid dumping grease down the drain. It can pass through the tank and into the field thereby helping plug it up early. The sludge on the bottom of the tank is called "Ash" and is usually the remains of the digested waste. The problem comes when the ash builds up high enough to enter the outlet pipe (which has a "T" or "L" on the end to place the opening below the water line.) The ash flowing through the oulet will seep out through the drain field and literally plug up the little empty spaces between the rocks that surround the drain lines. Soap can also form a scum on these rocks which prevents the free flow of grey water. I don't know if powdered soap will have any different effect than liquid soap or bar soap. All soaps and detergents will kill bacteria, (that's why the lunch lady always told us to wash our hands.)

As far as dumping stuff down the drain to help the little bugs in there, I've never worried about it although I know a lot of people who do. There are several real expensive products available, some cheap things like Rid-X, or you can go the sugar and yeast route. All will probably work with equal efficiency. We're on a brand new septic system and I have not dumped one thing down the drain to start it. (Well, I have, but it was 100% natural, free and available in great quantity.) My Mother had a new system put in at her house and we didn't do anything special to start it, either. The human gut has plenty of bacteria and yeasts in it to do the job. The little critters just need the chance to work in peace without someone mucking up the neighborhood.

Steve

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OkieG
Member

Reged: 09/14/02
Posts: 42
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: robertn]
      12/29/02 10:41 PM

I don't know too much about yeast, but I believe it devours sugars. Though Lager yeasts may work in cooler temps, would it really help keep a septic system clean? If so, is a DIY beer/wine supply store the best place to buy the yeast?

OkieG

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OkieG
Member

Reged: 09/14/02
Posts: 42
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: pbenven]
      12/29/02 10:54 PM

My Dad was a career plumber. Unfortunately, his son didn't pick up too much when he had the chance years ago.

He also suggests the garden hose down the cleanout trick, not necessarily to clear a blockage, but as a routine maintanence item to keep the system from forming a blockage in the first place. Who knows? I just don't want the plumbing to go down again. I envy you lucky ducks who don't have septic problems. Believe me, you don't want them.

OkieG

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robertn
Silver Member

Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 236
Loc: Shingle Springs, Calif
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      01/02/03 05:28 PM

Yeast eats sugar. In goes sugar, out goes alcohol and CO2. So forth comes beer, ect. In bread, it eats the sugars, and generates CO2; that's the "rise". There may be some residual alcohol or other stuff, but the bread yeast strain is optimized for the "rise" from the CO2(from my beer making expierience).

In your septic tank, you will probably find very few sugars. Since there is little to no sugar, there is nothing for the yeast to eat.

So, I would go out on a limb and guess that yeast in the septic tank wouldn't hurt anything, but it also would not help any. That is, of course, just IMHO.

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OkieG
Member

Reged: 09/14/02
Posts: 42
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: robertn]
      01/03/03 11:57 PM

In your septic tank, you will probably find very few sugars.

Robert,

I think you're right. But, there are probably more sugars in our septic tanks than we think. For example, I believe cellulose (toilet paper) and starches (peelings and disposal scraps) are complex sugars that may or may not appeal to yeasts. I just don't know. I'm a little skeptical about if yeast would help.

OkieG

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pbenven
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 198
Loc: QC, Canada
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      01/04/03 09:06 AM

Walking a fine line here between grossness and natural phenomena, but here goes...

You're in a fishing camp and you take a leak in the middle of the night outside just off the beaten path. Next morning you get up and see a bunch of yellow butterflies congregating where you relieved yourself. What do you suppose they're feeding on?

Also, the septic tank guy around here calls effluent "sweet water." And then then there's the colloquialism for the truck he drives - the "honey" truck.

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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: pbenven]
      01/04/03 09:53 AM

If you keep High acidic and high basic materials out, pump before it is really required [ this means checking it, not every so many years ] and try and place the tank so it stays warm and all should flow well.

Egon

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pbenven
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 198
Loc: QC, Canada
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: egon]
      01/04/03 10:07 PM

After considering the possible reasons for the "inflow" pipe getting clogged - and fairly regularly I might add, I've come to he conclusion that it has either been squashed or there's a dip in it. Either way, I'll be dropping by the local tool rental place in the spring to have a second go on their JD 4400 to dig it up and replace it. I rented it earlier this year to redo my leach field.

I use the term "redo" lightly as really there was no leach field. I found that at some point all they did was plonk a septic tank in between the house and the old cesspool.

I must say that simple tasks get complicated real quick when dealing with a hundred year old house. In times of exasperation, I wonder if it would have been worth it to bulldoze the whole site flat and call up the pre-fab home people. But I do eventually come to my senses and realize that I'm just a blip in this house's history and I that owe it some respect.

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OkieG
Member

Reged: 09/14/02
Posts: 42
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: pbenven]
      01/05/03 07:36 AM

I've always wondered about the 'honey" in honey truck. As an unrelated side note: "Agua dulce" (sweet water) in Spanish is the term used to describe fresh (drinkable) water as opposed to salt water.

Please don't take me as contrary and my following statement is not meant to be argumentative. I would like to throw in 2 cents worth on your "butterfly" example...Dietary sugars (glucose, fructose, sucrose) are effectively absorbed by the gut into the blood stream where the body deals with them and holds them tightly as a future energy source. Nondietary sugars cannot be used by the body, hence the term "nondietary". They are still sugars, full of energy, but our bodies can't process them. Anyway, I believe, nondietary sugars are mostly eliminated in solid waste (never absorbed). Urine is waste filtered from the blood stream. It contains expendible amounts of water, nitrogenous waste (from protein processing) and excess ions (hydrogen, sodium, potassium and chloride mostly). There may also be debris like sloughed cells, etc. Blood sugar is jealously guarded by the kidneys, as blood is filtered, and only "spills" into urine when the blood sugar level is so high that the kidney's resorption mechanism is overwhealmed. This virtually never happens in a "normal" person, but is frequent in disease states like diabetes.

Urine is our waste, but does contain useful nutrients for other organisms. For example, the nitrogen is appreciated by the compost pile, where bacteria use it to do their composting thing. (There are other sources of nitrogen for the compost pile...urine is not a requirement!). If butterflies are attracted to a person's urine because of sugar, that person may have a medical problem. I am not a physiologist, but this is my understanding of our inner workings.

Once again, please forgive me if this comes across in any way other than just informational.

OkieG

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pbenven
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 198
Loc: QC, Canada
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      01/05/03 08:15 AM

It was me who was coming across as argumentative. I just reread my post realized it isn't a very good idea to just ask questions one right after the other. Sorry. I would have guessed that a septic tank had quite a bit of sugar in it. These were real questions that I don't have answers for but may have mislead me into forming this belief.

I'm with you on the butterfly thing. The way I see it though, is that in nature rarely is anything wasted. These butterflies are not attracted by excess sugar, but because there is even just a small amount more than they can find in other critters' fluids.



In Italian, Aqua Dolce is sweet water, is drinkable water.

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OkieG
Member

Reged: 09/14/02
Posts: 42
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: pbenven]
      01/05/03 06:13 PM

After considering the possible reasons for the "inflow" pipe getting clogged - and fairly regularly I might add, I've come to he conclusion that it has either been squashed or there's a dip in it.

The few days around Christmas were a crash course in septic systems for me. I knew next to nothing beforehand. One thing I learned was about the metal baffles that protect the inflow and outflow pipes. They keep the pipes from clogging with material floating on the surface of the septic tank liquid. The baffle works particularly well for the outflow pipe, but not as well on the inflow side. It actually can trap solids exiting the inflow pipe and eventually block the system. In fact, the septic tank pump guy said most clogs form right where the inflow waste pipe enters the tank. Apparently, septic tanks have two hatches on their tops. One over the inflow pipe and one over the outflow pipe. He said if you dig down and pull the inflow hatch open, you can often use a stick to unclog the system. Just push away material collected between the inflow pipe and baffle.

Unfortunately for me, the inflow side of my septic tank is under concrete steps. So, snaking the pipe is my only option. If you can access the inflow side of your tank you may be lucky and fix things yourself.

I know what I am describing is pretty basic, but I knew so little before Christmas that this information was a revelation for me. Good luck.

OkieG

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pbenven
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 198
Loc: QC, Canada
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: OkieG]
      01/05/03 08:51 PM

Let me take you through a little history about my place...

We moved in April '98. That June, we had a very heavy rain and the little, 1' deep river at the back of the property rose 7' and came 600' up my field to about 75' from the house. The septic tank blocked. We called the tank cleaning guy and he emptied our tank. He said we should dig up the lid just to make sure everything was ok in there. Found out that it's a metal tank - a cylinder on end, so to speak. The inlet baffle was long gone which he said wasn't really a big deal. The lid, however, was almost rotten through and so he fabricated us a new one. A 4' wide disk with a 16" hole in the middle to which a 3' long corrugated plastic pipe was attached to provide access for cleaning. We rented a 75' foot long snake (the tank is about 50' from the house) and found the blockage to be about 10 ' from the tank - soap. OK, no more powdered laundry detergent.

The tank has blocked another 3 times since. The 2nd to last time was this summer. I was convinced that the leach field was not doing it's job. Whenever there was a significant amount of ground water, from either flooding or rapid thaws, the level of it would rise above or "fill" my leach field to the point where the level was somewhere above my septic tank. Solids were being trapped in the pipe.

I rented a JD 4400 with a backhoe, bought a load of washed stone and some white plastic drain pipe and set about redoing my leach field. I must say that if you can ever find an excuse to rent a back hoe, do it! What a blast. Anyways, I dug a 100' long trench 90 degrees from the outlet pipe of the tank and made 4, 60' long "fingers" off of this main trench. I filled the bottom with gravel and laid in my pipe, giving about a 1/4" drop per 10 '. More gravel on top of that and then backfilled - all in 24 hours from the time of the rental unit arriving. I was proud, relieved, and very happy that we could now relax and not have to worry about this anymore.

So when it backed up again over the holidays, I was seeing black. "Not again" I thought. What could possibly be going on now?

I went back to the rental place and picked up MY snake (figured I've paid for it now) and proceed to try and unblock it again. What's that? you want the funny part? OK.

The snake has two business ends - one is a sharp, spear head and the other is a large sphere. I need the sphere but it's wrapped up so that the spear end is the one available. I figure I'll give it a try like that. I bring it into the basement and start feeding it down the pipe. I encounter resistance about 15' from the tank. I'm able to push through. I go outside and look down the cleanout hole. There's the snake - but no water coming behind it. I give it about 20 shoves back and forth but the blocakge is holding it's own. I decide to take the snake out, wrap it up, take it outside, unwrap it, and wrap it up again from the other end so I can use the sphere end. As I'm loading the thing back into its metal brace, it slips and wacks me across the bridge of the nose. Not only did that really smart, but where this thing had just been was more my concern at the time. You ever seen someone give themselves a snow-job?

Anyways, I get it back in to the house and give it a go with the new end. Still nothing. I couldn't believe that nothing was coming out - it should have at least damaged the "sludge-dam" enough to cause some water to come out.

This is why I beleive there must be a "flat" spot somewhere down my inlet pipe. I might just say to heck with it and install a brand new cement tank while I'm at it. I don't feel like waiting for another failure to force me into another situtation like this.

I tell ya, there's never a dull moment out here. People at work ask me "Paul, so what did you do this weekend? Anything special?"
"Nope" I say.
"Don't you get bored, living out in the country?"
"Yeah, I guess I do, but you get used to it."

They'd never last a season.

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OkieG
Member

Reged: 09/14/02
Posts: 42
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: pbenven]
      01/05/03 09:21 PM

Great story, Paul. I don't feel sorry for myself anymore. My little septic encounter is nothing compared to yours.

OkieG

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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: Septic Tank-How to keep it healthy? new [re: pbenven]
      01/05/03 11:51 PM

The sludge may be viscious enough that nothing will flow past the snake

If you can get a snake through it it has to be open far enough for the snake to get thru. Can you attach a line to the snake and pull that thru. Then put something a little bigger on the line and try and pull that thru and onward and onward.

Or try and push a water hoze up the line from the speptic tank to flush out the line.

Replacing the problem parts is the best idea. Ain't no fun with a backed up system.

Egon

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