|
JoeR
|
|
Silver Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
Loc: St.Cloud, FL
|
|
Interesting Article
10/23/02 06:55 PM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Here is link to an article that will get some comments. It's about a Rodeo.
News Article
I guess ranching skills will be considered inhumane to animals. It's funny that the word inhumane is used: To treat something as non human... Animal?
Joe R.
Post Extras:
|
|
hazmat
|
|
Gold Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 417
|
|
Loc: West Newbury, MA
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: JoeR]
10/23/02 08:52 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Only in California, oh wait that's not true anymore. Only in America! Absolutely absurd!
Hazmat
Post Extras:
|
|
tenebrous
|
|
Gold Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 413
|
|
Loc: Geneseo, New York
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: JoeR]
10/23/02 09:37 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
It is interesting that if the majority of people do not agree with this ladies position, she runs to court.
If she does not want her son there OK, but why doesn't she allow others to make the same decision. Oh, I forgot she knows best, just ask her.
Post Extras:
|
|
DUMBDOG
|
|
Gold Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 286
|
|
Loc: North Dakota, Florida
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: JoeR]
10/23/02 10:30 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Does this mean that they do not eat meat?
What about being inhumane to vegetables? 
Post Extras:
|
|
Hank
|
|
Gold Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/12/02
|
|
Posts: 450
|
|
Loc: near Wickenburg AZ
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: JoeR]
10/24/02 06:29 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
I guess ranching skills will be considered inhumane to animals
My wife is very much the "animal advocate", even to being borderline PETA in some respects, but she has an interesting perspective on rodeos. She grew up riding horses, and for five years was a horse-mounted police officer. She says rodeos are not at all cruel to the animals, because they use mature animals that are bred and trained for that specific purpose (the ranching skills you mention). It is horseracing that draws her anger, because they use immature animals before their joints are set.
Post Extras:
|
|
JoeR
|
|
Silver Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
Loc: St.Cloud, FL
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: tenebrous]
10/24/02 08:42 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
In reply to:
It is interesting that if the majority of people do not agree with this ladies position, she runs to court.
This is the fundamental problem with America. The court system should throw this out before it ever makes it to a jury. Nobody is forcing this woman or her children to attend, but she wants to make sure nobody else can attend. In the near future, someone will say they don't like churches, and then sue you for attending mass.
Joe R.
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: JoeR]
11/06/02 08:47 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
We've been dealing with this crap for the last 30 years. The points that these idiots bring out are absolute lies. Yes once in awhile an animal breaks a bone or gets hurt. But so does every other athlete. With regard to bull riding it's usually the bull that wins. In steer wrestling you've got a 600 pound steer going against a 200lb. avg. man with just his bare hands. In roping the animals are rarely if ever hurt. In team roping there is absolutely no harm to the animal. The animals horns are wrapped and they are only roped once or twice a day and usually only two to three times a week. For gosh sakes in calf roping you can't even jerk the calf down anymore. If you do it's a big fine and you are disqualified. So basically it amounts to getting roped and spun around, BIG DEAL.
Last year I watched a friend at the NFR win the world by making a heroic run. He jumped off and the calf went the wrong way and he completely tore just about everything in his knee. Somehow he finished that run. It's not the animal that wins the majority of the time. There are 1000x more human injuries than there are animal injuries. Seems to me the odds are pretty good in the animals favor.
Most of these animals only work for 10 seconds max at a time. So they get worked for 10-20 seconds a day. The rest of the day they are fed like a king and get to lay around and do nothing. It's just absolute garbage what is said about the rodeo industry.
Post Extras:
|
|
egon
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/12/02
|
|
Posts: 3031
|
|
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: cowboydoc]
11/06/02 12:56 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
It would almost sound like all contact sports should be banned and then as a followup all activities that may be injurious to people should also be stopped. After all a person should be granted the same amount of protection as an animal.
Egon
Post Extras:
|
|
earthmother
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/16/02
|
|
Posts: 42
|
|
Loc: Cambridge, NY, in the beautiful foothills of the Green Mountains.
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: JoeR]
11/07/02 12:40 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
I guess many people take things to extreme, or they feel that they have no other options, but the extreme. Just like every thing else- there are good, professionally run rodeos and there are bad ones. Just like there are good zoos with re-created habitats and bad ones with animals in small cages and who are poorly fed. The same thing with the circus. I know of many people who would not go to a circus and watch tigers jump through hoops. These tigers are not overtly being hurt, although we do not know too much about the training techniques used. I think the point this woman is trying to make is that we humans, are not here on earth to have animals under our control and to exploit them for our entertainment. Most of us would probably be out raged at the "performing bear" routine of not to long ago, and the still in existance bull fight. Should we have open dog or cock fights for entertainment? Some cultures do not see anything wrong with that, yet most Americans do. Yes, animals work for us and maybe some people see these "tasks" that are shown during a rodeo, as a normal task for that animal (horse or steer), but in a rodeo it is being done for enjoyment, not work. A cowboy, or anyone else, would not be riding a steer in "real life", nor in this day an age would we "break" a horse. More gentler methods work better. Yes, you would rope a calf, but usually a rodeo has nothing to do with real ranch work. This woman has young children, that I assume she feels would get the wrong idea about how we should relate to animals. We should appreciate them for what they are. For their natural beauty and natural behavior. Yes, I do ride a horse, but the horse is not put through any unnatural paces or stunts. I do not make my animals do anything that would scare them. If a rodeo horse or steer gets injured even once in it's rodeo lifetime, then that is once too many. It was injured for our enjoyment, and that we should not tolerate. 
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
|
We should appreciate them for what they are. For their natural beauty and natural behavior.
Well that's kind of a croc then. You say you own a horse and ride one. If you want to appreciate their natural beauty and behavior go out west and turn your horse loose with the wild mustangs. See how naturally they tear into your horse. A horse was not born so that you could ride him. Their natural habitat is out on the range and not having someone on their back. If you go out and try to ride a horse in the wild that horse will just as soon kill you as look at you. Sure you can tame them but they tame lions as well. A horse is no more of a domestic animal than a lion or a tiger. Why do you think there are so many horse related injuries and deaths. Whatever "horse whispering" nonsense you want to put to how a horse is BROKE, so be it. But it is just that. Whether you send one around in a pen or let one buck until they give in is no different. In the end they turn out the same. Whatever you want to call it is just semantics. Heck a plant is alive too. They grow, breathe, live, die, they go through genetic alterations. No difference. So unless you want to equate plants with us then no animals are not any farther up the chain than they are. Abuse I sure do disagree with 100%. But animals certainly are here on the earth for our enjoyment and our use. Just like the air we breathe and the plants that we eat.
It's kind of like saying that you're a little pregnant. You say you just ride horses naturally. Well there's no such thing as just a little naturally horse riding. You obviously choose roundpen training which is surely not natural for a horse. NATURAL, HA. Have you ever seen a mare run her foal around in a circle until the foal would come to her? Have you ever seen the lead horse run the others in a circle until they give up? Heck no. They kick, bite, and every other thing to establish their hierarchy. So please tell me how a roundpen is natural? No more natural than getting on a horses back and letting them buck and then quit. Bucking is natural for a horse.
Post Extras:
|
|
JoeR
|
|
Silver Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
Loc: St.Cloud, FL
|
|
|
In reply to:
If a rodeo horse or steer gets injured even once in it's rodeo lifetime, then that is once too many. It was injured for our enjoyment, and that we should not tolerate.
What about children playing little league?
How many times have we watched National Geographic film a lion killing another animal? That was for our enjoyment?
I think the real issue is that we(people in general) may not agree but we should not inflict our will upon others.
I believe the bull fights in Spain are cruel, but I will not tell them they should not practice their culture.
Animals are not human, and they are not our equals. I do not think animals should be abused, but they are entertaining. How many times have you given a cat, catnip? What if the cat fell off a chair after someone gave it catnip and got injured?
Joe R.
Post Extras:
|
|
mickymac
|
|
New Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/11/02
|
|
Posts: 10
|
|
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: JoeR]
11/09/02 02:04 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Perhaps we should let the animal decide?
The animals are not abused,'' said Michael Wegher, CEO of the Cow Palace, ``because that's the people's livelihood. Some of those animals are better cared for than some people in the world.''
Hmmm. I can't agree the animals aren't abused ``because that's the people's livelihood. If they are intentionally causing stress and pain for the animals which could otherwise be avoided, well...I think that's abuse. Especially when it's solely for the "entertainment factor." I agree that "Some of those animals are better cared for than some people in the world.'' Now that's sad.
When I say, "Perhaps we should let the animal decide..." there are cases, given a choice, an animal seeks out and enjoys a humans company. Does your cat or dog more often than not come home? I don't think riding a horse "hurts" or causes undue stress or pain for the animal and it often clearly enjoys it's relationship with it's "partner." Does the bull enjoy being riden? The calf roped? What is the purpose? I guess part of the issue would have to do with your definition of "hurt" and how much of that is "intentional" and "acceptable. "
I love the fact we have a system that allows this woman to "questioin" these issues and yes at times "forces" us to look at how we behave. Each of us has this right in our society and I wouldn't want it any other way.
We "choose" to live in a society where the majority rules and there are still inaliable rights for all. Perhaps we should set a part of the World aside where this isn't so, so that others who disagree with this society can go there and live.
Mick
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: mickymac]
11/10/02 02:00 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Perhaps we should let the animal decide?
If that's the fact then forget about food, medicine, clothing, research, hunting, etc. Basically everything that animals give us. Who are you or this wacko pita lady to tell me how to live my life? Our whole lives are based around the management of living things, with animals being a huge part of this. Any wild animal would love to have you for lunch so let's just let them decide.
This is so ridiculous. If you're going to let the cows decide then you surely must let the lions, tigers, sharks, cougars, etc. decide as well. They would love to have you for lunch and to get the heck off of their land.
We have to manage animals how we see fit. If one person wants to use dogs to hunt pheasants or something else. Good for him. If another person wants to use a horse for roping and cattle for roping, good for him. If another person wants a cat for a companion, good for them. If a person wants to raise cattle and butcher them, good for them. If a person wants to raise sheep and shear them for the wool and butcher for the meat, good for them.
Good for everyone that does something with animals. There's a huge difference between using animals for our enjoyment and livelihood and abusing them. As long as you don't abuse the animals it's none of your business what I do and it's none of my business what you do. These busy bodies that try and tell me what to do and tell you what to do there is no place for.
Animals are not people. They rely solely on instincts. Why do you think a horse allows itself to be trained? It's because we train him to be. If a horse was truly smart and a thinking animal there is no way we would ever ride them or make them do what we want. All they would have to do is figure out that they are superior to us and there isn't a dang thing we could to do to change that. Same way with a cow. If they were truly a logical and thinking animal they wouldn't even run so that they could be roped. Yes animals are smart but they certainly have no higher cognition even close to what humans are.
Post Extras:
|
|
Al_Wa
|
|
Silver Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/12/02
|
|
Posts: 237
|
|
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: cowboydoc]
11/10/02 10:45 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Doc,
Rest assured there is a silent majority out here that strongly supports your view on this subject. Thanks for taking the time to express this view.
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: Al_Wa]
11/11/02 07:54 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Thanks Al. I wonder how these people would feel if I started an initiative to ban soccer in kids under 18. Soccer has way more injuries than rodeo ever thought of having. These injuries are to kids that do grow up to be logical thinking adults. Alot of these kids are pushed ridiculously by their parents and at the ages of 5 and up. I know for a fact alot of these kids don't have a choice to play or not. Some of the dirty play that I see and hear about is just plain ridiculous. Then go to a game and watch these parents. They make a bull in a rodeo look like a creampuff. But hey violence, rage, hate, dirty play, alot of injuries, and poor sportsmanship are ok in soccer but rodeo is bad. I really wonder about where people have their priorities. Amazing how many people live in glass houses.
Post Extras:
|
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: cowboydoc]
11/11/02 08:32 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
I agree....you have the same thing in football and baseball,and boxing.
Post Extras:
|
|
earthmother
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/16/02
|
|
Posts: 42
|
|
Loc: Cambridge, NY, in the beautiful foothills of the Green Mountains.
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: cowboydoc]
11/12/02 11:45 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
I agree with the kids in sports thing. As a nurse I've seen too many kids injured, some severely and permanantly, by sports. I think we should allow kids to be kids, and not push them into anything they are not ready for, or because we, as the parents, have this hang up about our kids being better than yours.
As far as animals go- I think an animal should be killed if it's attacking you. That's self defence!! I would do the same for a person. I also think animals should be used for food, if that's your thing. No - we are not vegetarians, although we had been at some point. I like steak just as much as the next person. The point is about our relationship with animals. It's sad that some people feel that they have to be entertained by having an animal abused or scared and confused by our actions. As far as watching a lion kill a zebra on TV for enterainment, you're comparing apples and oranges. That lion is killing for food. Not to see, who in the pride can do it better! I just hope that some day, and it probably won't be in my lifetime, that we have respect for our fellow creatures ( yes- humans are animals- Not vegetable or mineral) and live in harmony with them, and ourselves.
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
|
I think you are sorely missing the point. I don't know of anyone on this earth that has more respect for animals than ranchers and cowboys. Just because things are done different than the way you grew up doesn't mean there isn't respect there. Riding a bucking horse is no different than riding a tame horse. It's still riding. How do you know a horse likes it any better making a living bucking 8 seconds 100 times a year or getting ridden for 30 minutes to 2 hours 100 time a year? As far as cattle go they are very well taken care of. Like I've said they get roped a few times and then are given the best feed and shelter available. Hardly abuse and hardly a lack of respect. If you aren't a rancher and you aren't a cowboy then you really don't know what goes on. Watching from the sidelines is one thing but actually living it is quite another thing. You have no idea what is going through the guys mind or the animals.
Seriously what do you think is worse. 1. A cow that spends it's whole life, about a year, in a feedlot to be slaughtered with a 1000 other head of cattle. 2. A rodeo steer that gets great feed and is kept inside most of the time with only about 20 other cattle. Is used for 2 - 3 years and then usually gets sent for meat. Really not much difference either way. The rodeo steer actually will get better treatment, less confinement, great feed, and live a year or two longer.
I could understand if there was abuse but there just isn't. If a steer or a calf is ever caught wrong the cowboys don't go ahead and rope them. They just let them go. The animals aren't hurt. Sure once in awhile an accident happens but accidents are just a part of life period.
Post Extras:
|
|
Hayseed
|
|
Silver Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 239
|
|
Loc: Beach City, TX near Trinity Bay
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: cowboydoc]
11/18/02 01:27 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
As usual, you hit the nail on the head, doc. I agree but just don't have the knack for putting my thoughts into words. Thanks for saying what I would have said if I had the ability to do so...
Chris
Post Extras:
|
|
RichZ
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/12/02
|
|
Posts: 558
|
|
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: cowboydoc]
11/21/02 03:01 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
As my wife (Earthmother) said there are good rodeos and bad, like anything else. I know Richard (Cowboydoc), and I know he would not be part of anything where an animal was abused. But that's not to say it doesn't happen in some rodeos.
Richard, didn't you tell me once that there is some orignization that certifies rodeos for things such as safety and treatment of animals? I seem to remeber that. I think some sort of oversight is always good.
As the saying goes, "One bad apple spoils the whole bunch." If people see a "bad" rodeo, they think that's what they're all like.
For example, I've heard things said about abuse of cows on dairy farms. That is probably true in some, but certainly not in all. I have a friend who is a dairy farmer, and his cows are extremely well treated. They even return to their stalls after being milked on their own. They spend most of each day in a pasture. And when their production gets low, he puts them out to pasture permanently. He feels that they've produced milk for him for years, and made him money, and they earn their "retirement". I don't think his cows are mistreated, but some people who were uninformed might say they were. There are always good and bad.
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: RichZ]
11/21/02 10:31 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Rich,
Every rodeo organization has very strict rules for the treatment of the animals involved in rodeo. The PRCA, professional rodeo cowboys association, is the largest organization. Even the small state rodeo associations have very strict guidelines. If you jerk down a calf it's a $300 fine the first offense. $1000 the second offense and third offense is suspension.
Post Extras:
|
|
RichZ
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/12/02
|
|
Posts: 558
|
|
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
|
|
Re: Interesting Article
[re: cowboydoc]
11/22/02 07:24 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Thanks, Richard, that's what I thought. So, if people want to avoid a rodeo that may have a problem with animal abuse, they should see if it's certified by PRCA or a similar organization. If it's not, I for one would stay away.
Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."
Post Extras:
|
Previous
Index
Next
Flat
Threaded