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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Missing Post-Border Closed
      03/17/05 08:12 AM

in the LIVESTOCK FORUM
I have asked privately(PM) one of the listed moderators, no response, SO I will ask Publicly, WAS MY POST CENSORED/deleted? the post was started 2/13/05
Titled: " Border will remain closed"
It had 19 posts when it was deleted
the last post that was:

The heck with science, How about common sense ?
Example, your fishing with your grandchildren, you get to your neighbors small farm pond, you spend hours fishing with no luck, BUT while your trying to catch fish one fish floats to the top and is thrashing around, trying to swim but can't, keeps floating to top,flips sideways,tall up, head up,etc.etc. then another fish floats to the top, then another,and another, would you take those floaters home to eat- NO, thats obvious, lets say you luck out and actually hook a fish from that small pond- would you eat that fish you caught knowing that there is something wrong in that pond ??? How many fish did the same thing and sunk (undetected)? , that you did not witness?, Would you take that chance, having witness those 4 fish, would you let your grandkids take that chance? Lets stay with that farm pond, the farmer comes along and throws a net and catches most of the fish and unintentionally the four floaters get into the net, should he be allowed to bring them to market? you tell him what you saw, he takes the 4 fish out and disposes them in the garbage, do you think he should bring the other fish to market? NOT KNOWING what is in that pond, or how many fish are sick but don't show signs of the sickness?????? Then you could add to this it will be 9 - 21 years before people show signs of this disease, so maybe its O.K. because people don't get sick in days, but 10 years down the line, and not everyone who eats these fish gets sick ? These are questions that the science of the day CANNOT answer, or don't want to answer (depending on who they work for) maybe we should just start using common sense

Ron


I have asked other menbers if this post is visible on their computers/ thinking I had a computer problem, but they have responded it is also missing on their computer

What was so offensive about the above post??????
Why was that post allowed to run 29 days??????
If the above post was offensive why remove the whole threat??
Is it not reasonable to at least notify the person who started the thread the reasons for removing the thread?????
and finally , can the powers of this forum tell me what are the ground rules for removing a thread and show me what was violated in the last post of that thread????

Ron

P.S. If you remove this post , will you notify me by PM??????

edited add on- Just for the people who don't know, this post was discussing BSE(mad cow) and the border being closed to Canadian Beef Exports



Edited by RonNY (03/17/05 09:15 AM)

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Bird
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 1694
Loc: Corinth, TX, USA
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/17/05 09:50 AM

Ron, I don't have any problem pulling up that thread and your quoted "last post" is there along with the other 18 posts in that thread.

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GaryM
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 1212
Loc: Warrenton, MO
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/17/05 11:00 AM

I don't find it on my menu.

Gary
----------------------------------------------
Hey! Aren't you supposed to be working?

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Bird
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Reged: 09/12/02
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Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: GaryM]
      03/17/05 11:18 AM

Hmmm, well, I'm not a moderator on this CBN, so I don't know what happened. I don't find it on the menu, but by clicking on Ron's username, then "Show all user's posts" it's there.

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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: Bird]
      03/17/05 12:26 PM

Bird
I have answered Pat & Egron on that post after it dissappeared
from the forum, by using the post reminder on MY HOME page, before I realize that it is missing from the Livestock Forum!
if it is censored, Maybe that end of it will be gone since we are talking about a "BACKDOOR" to this thread. I don't mind if there were rules being broken, just wish they would tell me which rules??

Ron



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Pat
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Reged: 09/15/02
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Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/17/05 01:01 PM

TRUST NO ONE!

...

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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mfaley
Gold Member

Reged: 03/30/04
Posts: 256
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/17/05 02:20 PM

I also do not see it.
I am not an expert on this subject so I enjoyed the spirited debate.

If this one was pulled I am sorry to see it leave as I found it educational.
Mark

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egon
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/17/05 05:11 PM


Just a little more info.

INDEPTH: MAD COW
Mad Cow in Canada: The science and the story
CBC News Online | March 2, 2005

For years, Canada had been virtually free of mad cow disease. But in May 2003, veterinary officials in Alberta confirmed that a sick cow sent to a slaughterhouse in January of that year had been inspected, found to be substandard, and removed so that it would not end up as food for humans or other animals. The carcass was, however, sent to a processing plant for rendering into oils. Its head was kept for testing. Samples were sent to the world testing laboratories in the U.K., which confirmed the case of mad cow.

"What is important is that the system worked," said Shirley McClellan, Alberta's agriculture minister at the time. "We have a very thorough and respected inspection system." She was insistent to remind the public that the disease is not contagious within a herd.

But McClellan's assurances didn't stop the U.S., Japan, South Korea, Australia and other countries from imposing temporary import bans of Canadian beef.

QUICK FACTS
Canada has close to 13.5 million cows and calves. About 5.7 million (or 42 per cent) are in Alberta.

Canada's total beef exports amount to $2.2 billion annually, and have risen sharply in recent years. Since 1991, beef exports have risen from 100,000 tonnes to about 500,000 tonnes. Growth in exports has been greatest to Japan, South Korea and Mexico. Alberta's share of total beef exports is 39 per cent (worth about $860 million a year).


Several ranches in Alberta, B.C. and Saskatchewan were quarantined as a precaution, including the infected cow's home ranch.

In an investigation into the source of the infection, 1,400 cows were slaughtered and tested for the disease. No other cows were found to have BSE until late December, 2004.

Western premiers demanded $360 million compensation from the federal government for losses to the beef industry because of the mad cow scare. Ottawa would later offer $190 million.

Over the summer of 2003, cattle ranchers held barbeques across Canada to help promote Canadian beef.

In August, the U.S. reopened its borders to some Canadian beef, but the border was still closed to live cattle. By this time, a cow that would have normally sold for $1,300 was selling for $15. Canadian beef producers asked Ottawa to approve a mass slaughter of 620,000 cattle to reduce the size of the herd and prevent further damage to the industry.

In October, CBC News reported that the border would reopen to live cattle in December 2003. But on Dec. 23, 2003, the U.S. announced that it had discovered its first apparent case of BSE in a cow in Washington state.

Several countries banned beef from the U.S. soon after the announcement, but Canada restricted imports only on some products made from cattle and other ruminants. It still allowed the import of cattle destined for immediate slaughter, boneless beef from cattle under 30 months of age and dairy products.

DNA evidence later revealed that the cow was born in Canada, and the U.S. kept its border shut to live Canadian cattle.

It took a little more than a year for the United States to announce that it would reopen its border to live Canadian cattle younger than 30 months..

On Dec. 29, 2004, The USDA announced that it recognized Canada as a "minimal-risk region" for BSE and imports of young Canadian cattle would resume March 7, 2005.

The new classification means the U.S. will not again close its borders to Canadian beef unless there are two or more cases of BSE per one million cattle older than 24 months of age in each of four consecutive years. Simply put, Canada can have up to 11 cases of BSE and still be considered a safe country for cattle exports.

The move came less than a month after U.S. President George W. Bush made his first official visit to Canada and said the process for reopening the border was underway.

A day after the USDA announcement, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency reported that preliminary tests may have turned up another case of mad cow disease in a 10-year-old dairy cow. Even after the CFIA confirmed the BSE case on Jan. 3, 2005, American officials said the announcement would likely have no effect on the decision to reopen the border.

A third confirmed case of BSE in Alberta was found days after the American announcement. Canadian agriculture officials say the animal, which tested positive for the fatal disease on Jan. 11, 2005, was born after the 1997 ban on feeding cattle remains to cattle. They said the cow became infected by eating contaminated feed that had been legally produced before the ban came into effect.

The British connection

Previously, Canada had only one case of a cow infected with BSE. The animal, reported on a farm near Red Deer, Alta., in December of 1993, was imported from Britain. Agriculture Canada opted to destroy the animal and its five herd mates.

Mexico, one of the largest importers of Canadian beef at the time, temporarily banned imports of Canadian cattle after the incident. The United States, another major consumer of Canadian beef, sent observers to Canada to see how the incident was handled.


As a result, and because of the rumours of possible human health implications circulating in Britain, the Ministry of Agriculture decided to destroy any animal imported from Britain between 1982 and 1990, the year a ban was placed on British beef imports to Canada. This slaughter also included the offspring of any of those animals.

All told, 363 animals were destroyed and their owners compensated. Some said the destruction was unnecessary, especially the farmers whose cattle were killed, but the ministry said it was better to err on the side of caution after seeing what was happening in Britain. As of January 2005, 148 Britons had died of vCJD and five others were infected but still living.

During the summer of 1995, the disease surfaced again. The Canadian Red Cross Society revealed two of its donors had died of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, CJD. Two years later, concern over blood was raised again after a man was found to be a carrier of a gene linked to a hereditary form of CJD.

In August 2002, doctors confirmed a man in Saskatchewan died from new variant CJD – the human counterpart to mad cow disease. He had spent some time in the United Kingdom and it appeared he acquired the disease while he was there, doctors said.

The man had an endoscopic examination before he died and that equipment was then used on other patients. However, because of disinfection and cleaning procedures, the risk of cross contamination is minute. Public health officials phoned patients who had received examinations with the endoscope to inform them.

It's still not known if the disease can be transmitted through blood products.

In 1996, the Canadian government suspended imports of British beef embryos and semen. Agriculture Canada also began a review of the practice of using meat meal and bone meal as a protein source in beef cattle feed.

In 1997, changes designed to keep animal parts out of animal feeds were implemented. Among them, Ottawa made it illegal to give beef herds products made from rendered cattle. However, rendered cattle could be used in feed for pigs and poultry.

A month after Canada's first case of BSE, a panel of experts recommended that the parts of the cow that can pass on BSE, such as the brain and spine should be kept out of all animal feed. That's policy in most European countries.

It's a recommendation that has met stiff resistance in the beef industry. Including rendered cattle parts in feed means disposing of heads and intestines can make money for cattle farmers instead of costing them money.

Meanwhile, documents obtained by CBC News through the Access to Information Act show that in the weeks after that first case of BSE, cattle were allowed to eat feed meant for chicken and pigs. Some of the feed was likely made from the original diseased cow.

The federal agriculture minister - Andy Mitchell - says the government is moving to ban the use of cattle remains in all feed. The regulations are due to be in place by the middle of 2005.


Egon

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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: mfaley]
      03/17/05 07:11 PM

The subject had to be getting some people a little nervous ??
Don't know what was so different about this one as opposed to some older ones about BSE on this forum that even a moderator posted on with spirited replies

Ron



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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: egon]
      03/17/05 07:38 PM

Meanwhile, documents obtained by CBC News through the Access to Information Act show that in the weeks after that first case of BSE, cattle were allowed to eat feed meant for chicken and pigs. Some of the feed was likely made from the original diseased cow.

The federal agriculture minister - Andy Mitchell - says the government is moving to ban the use of cattle remains in all feed. The regulations are due to be in place by the middle of 2005.


Egon


Egon
So does that mean that Canadian beef is unsafe for years to come because it takes at least 30 months ( some say 6 years) to show "TESTABLE" signs of BSE ? , the more info gets out the worse it looks.
Maybe organic, grass fed only, beef is the only safe bet until science comes up with some SOLID - simple & early testing procedures and the eventual testing of every cow slaughtered.
Sounds extreme! Yes It Does !

Ron




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egon
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
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Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/18/05 05:19 AM

Ron:

Not being blessed as a wise man I'm afraid I'm unable to answere your question with anything even remotely approaching accuracy.

The solution is very simple and very easy to apply. Feed Ruminants the food Herbivore's require. This may entail an increase in market price to the producer.

The human derivate of the disease can/and has been missdiagnosed as other more common illness for many years. More than we would like to fess up to.

I'd suggest the animal form may be present in almost all countries wether we like it or not.

I eat Beef.

50 years from now I shall not be bothered by it.

If one really takes it seriously switch to a vegetarian diet heavy on corn and beans to provide all the amino acids our bodies require for digestion. Try and stick to plants that are not fertilized. They grow slower and may have time to assimilate more essential minerals.

Egon




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rfawkes
Member

Reged: 01/05/03
Posts: 85
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: egon]
      03/18/05 07:21 AM

This has become one of the longest running threads in the history of the internet. Will it ever move on?

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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: egon]
      03/18/05 07:29 AM

If one really takes it seriously switch to a vegetarian diet heavy on corn and beans to provide all the amino acids our bodies require for digestion. Try and stick to plants that are not fertilized. They grow slower and may have time to assimilate more essential minerals.

Egon
Maybe that is why sometimes I get carried away with caring about the safety of my beef , I don't think I could ever function as a "vegetarian". Years ago when Public Health was a concern of gov't, They would Idendify and isolate the epidemic, then "POLITCAL CORRECTNESS " became policy That was the end of
common sense, they dropped the ball on "AIDS" and now they are trying to drop the ball with BSE, why live with this disease when it can be defeated in its early stages before it becomes acceptable , like just another disease that is part of life
One of the only things that "All"(?) agree is that contaminated feed is the primary way this BSE is spread - that is why organic, grass fed beef is looking better and better even if I have to raise them myself to make sure no feed is fed to these animals

Ron



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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 642
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/18/05 09:01 AM

Sorry haven't been over here. The post wasn't pulled but was accidently moved. One of the members posted a religious post and that was removed. In the process the wrong button was pushed and the thread was deleted instead of just the one religious post. I'm sorry for the confusion and the lost thread.

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mfaley
Gold Member

Reged: 03/30/04
Posts: 256
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: cowboydoc]
      03/18/05 11:28 AM

Ah....issue resolved. No harm/no foul so time to move on.

Mark

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wingnut
Gold Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 260
Loc: mid-Michigan
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/18/05 11:53 AM

Ron,
I certainly can't answer your what-if .... and science never can answer what-ifs ... because the questions keep getting further and further away from reality with every answer.

When I read your "interesting" post, my first thought was .... What if Ron is another of those nutcase vegans who does everything he can to try and get people to stop eating tasty animals. Now, I'm not saying you are ... but "what if ....."

If you want to counter science with science, or fact with fact, I get a lot of fun out of doing research and debating.
If you want to just play what-if games ... sorry .... I get enough of that stuff arguing why Social Security is a ponzi scheme. When my comments are simply twisted around to dustract from the argument, then I simply lose interest ... sorry.

it's a shame that common sense isn't
http://www.dahlhausminiatures.com


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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: wingnut]
      03/18/05 09:55 PM

wing nut
you know I had those same what if's about you when you started stressing how you did not have a "Financial" interest
in the border opening? what if Pete was a Canadian farmer, what if Pete's family lived in Canada, had a beef ranch, and interest in the border opening. Now I'm not saying you are...but "what if"
Pete , just in case you don't Know I put your words in blue letters, these are Direct Quotes of your words, no words are changed, no words are rearranged, no periods or coma's moved , they are exact copies of your words. Let me give you a example of a direct quote, you responded to me on that missing thread: "Border Will Remain Closed"

Ron .... I enjoy banter and debate and try to be open and a little sardonic and/or humorous ... because otherwise things get too bucolic and it gets into a religious/political/NorthvsSouth kinda thing.
Neither means that I'm completely serious nor completely irreverant.
Just in case you don't remember the above is a EXACT copy, not a word changed,or a period moved. So , naturally can you show me how your above words were twisted?

Pete , I don't have a problem with you saying it (anything), but YOU seem to have a problem with me replying to it

Maybe to avoid "Clinton Semantics" can you tell me the meaning of twisted IS
While you are at it maybe you can explain your words above Neither means that I'm completely serious nor completely irreverant. ? semantics??????
Now Pete, if you can't handle what if's, let me help you by changing a few words in that farm pond /fishing "what if"analogy
"Farmer" change to Canadian Rancher
"Fishing pond" change to Canadian Beef Industry
the four "floating"/sick fish change to the 4 confirmed BSE cases in Canada, Pete you get what I'm saying , right?
Now surprise Pete, I'm going to use my own words/Quote from one of my responses to a post of yours and I'm going to use green letters so there is no confusion
Pete
Sorry for taking you serious, I promise I won't do that again, you should have told me its just "tongue in cheek" and "humorous" fun you were having with me. I actually thought we were discussing science, my mistake. Next time I'll chill out before I answer you

JUST KIDDING or serious ??????????????
P.S. I have to leave now those BBQ steaks I had for dinner are repeating on me

Ron



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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/21/05 10:53 AM

***********UPDATE************
Judge sets July 27 as hearing date for R-CALF lawsuit

by Pete Hisey on 3/21/05 for Meatingplace.com


Judge Richard Cebull has set a date of July 27, 2005, for the beginning of a hearing to determine if a permanent injunction should be granted to keep the Canadian border closed to imports of Canadian cattle.

Meanwhile, USDA has appealed the injunction to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.


Now the Courts hopefully will get this one "right "??????

Just to throw a curve ball into the mix , how about a compromise

Country Of Origin Label "COOL"
if Canadian beef is "LABELED" Canadian Beef, giving me the CHOICE of whether to buy cheaper Canadian Beef ( hello wingnut) or more expensive US Beef( hello cowboydoc).
Details such as Canadian beef must be processed in Canada and US Beef must be processed in US to avoid cross contamination and other details I don't know about will have to worked out. This way the Facts of where that steak came from will influence the purchase
of people like me who care about food safety. One way to let the consumer decide! If Canadian beef sits and rots on the shelf, because of food safety fears, at least it won't hurt the US beef industry OR US Beef sits and rots because there is no fear and people would rather pay less for their food

RON



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wingnut
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 260
Loc: mid-Michigan
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: RonNY]
      03/21/05 03:48 PM

I probably should leave well enough alone, but, what the heck, I'm tired of hearing about right to live/die. In blue you showed my comment, which ended with Neither means that I'm completely serious nor completely irreverant.
then you posted your comment in red (or green? I'm colorblind)
Sorry for taking you serious, I promise I won't do that again,

What part of completely was it that you didn't understand?

I'm glad you're not asking about my financial interest, especially since I already made it clear. Maybe not clear enough for someone interpreting my words ... but I assure you, Ron, there's no need to dig very deeply into them. I find it much easier to just say what I mean ... 'cause it confuses the heck out of liberals who distrust anything simple and unvarnished.

You want to know how I thought my words were twisted, hmm? Well ... as you showed in your response, I said that I was from Alberta, had a STEP-brother who raised cattle, and I had NO financial interest in a border closing. Instead of accepting the 'NO', you made much of the fact that I have a step-brother in the 'business' and that I was Canadian. I would certainly call that twisting, since you were, basically, calling me a liar. No big deal, actually .... I'm very used to that attitude from people that have already made up their minds and aren't really debating ... just preaching to the choir.

So, I'll leave it there and wish you a pleasant BBQ .... hope the steaks were good and tender.

pete



it's a shame that common sense isn't
http://www.dahlhausminiatures.com


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RonNY
Member

Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Missing Post-Border Closed new [re: wingnut]
      03/21/05 08:34 PM

Here we go with Clinton Semantics, problem is no matter how hard you try ( like Bill kept trying) it does not work.
Two things I will address that have any meaning in your response - since you are colorblind, I'll use ("" to let you know I'm Quoting you, Ready? here we go:

1 ("" Neither means that I'm completely serious nor completely irreverant."") Sounds like you want it both ways, does it matter what side of the bed you get up on? What was it today, were you not completely IRRELEVANT today, maybe I should flip a coin to find out. Here , since you love playing what ifs amd word games
Its not one word in that sentence standing alone, it is the whole sentence. If you want to pick out the most important word in that sentence its the word (""nor"") means you want it both ways
Try this for size
Neither means that I'm completely Truthful nor completely dishonest, now take out "completely" and what do you have :
Neither means I'm Truthful nor dishonest, sentence basically means the same so how important is that word "completely"
"Completely" is just a distraction, just like you assume I'm a liberal, another distraction attempt, you know what they say about the word assume. but don't let the facts get in the way , today might be your "IRRELEVANT" day, who Knows?? and that is just the way you want it, slick willy? or just wingnut being wingnut?

2 ("" I said that I was from Alberta,"")
lets get this straight
you "admitted" you were Canadian. I read alot of your old posts to try and figure you out, and then I asked you directly:

MY QUOTE in a post to you
" You are a Canadian
You would be living in Alberta Canada, but your Company moved your job to the US, Michigan"

Your Quote in response to my Direct question
(""but the fact that a) my American citizenship application is still in the "pile","") typical having it both ways, Canadian becoming an American/US citizen?? yes???? Could you please give me a link to that post you said('"I said that I was from Alberta,"") was I involved with that post? I must have missed it?

you did give up your step brother, a beef rancher who lives in Alberta, by yourself, when you kept trying to stress you have no "Financial " interest in a earlier post
Do you think with the above Facts YOU might have a little more interest (financial or personnal) then me in that border being open?, you want me to take your word, O.K. I will take you for your word- this is what you want me to believe, that you don't care about your step brother, and you could care less that the economy in Alberta, might be heading toward a third world economy due to the collaspe of the beef industry, also, it doesn't matter you would still be living in Alberta, Canada, If your company had not transfered you to Michigan, your just a Canadian who does not care about family or country. If thats what you want me to believe then so be it, I believe you ? now on the opposite end you just won't believe My concern is strictly the food safety, I DON"T have a step brother in the US Cattle Industry, I DON'T have family in the midwest indirectly dependant on the cattle industry for the economy of the state they live in, I NEVER lived in a cattle state that I might return to in the future, YOU DON'T believe I'm retired and that I get my pension whether the border is open or closed, from the beginning you tried to say that most people have a financial interest in the border being closed, when that did not work I became a (""NUTCASE VEGAN"") when that failed I became a (""LIBERAL"") these are your words not mine - those accusations don't matter ,right Pete, because your neither completely serious nor completely irrelevant, right pete, the trust you seem to demand from other people you refuse to give
Just in case, Pete, you would like to see all your responses I'm quoting, oh I forgot , "twisting" and which you apparently DON'T like having to defend word for word, here is a link to the Missing Post "Border will remain closed" with words like("" twisting"") and ("" liar"") coming from your last post MAYBE its time for a MOLSON, Pete , or if its warm enough in Mich. maybe you should take a long ride on your bike ( goldwing? ) and chill out , but be safe , I'm beginning to enjoy our conversations , even though they defy logic

P.S.sorry to get off our little sardonic and/or humorous conversation , but what do you think of the Country Of Origin Label compromise, it might work because (""cause it confuses the heck out of lib____s who distrust anything simple and unvarnished."")

Ron



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