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Volhollow
New Member

Reged: 11/07/02
Posts: 13
Loc: East Tennessee
Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended
      01/03/05 06:10 PM

The Dec,29, 04 announcement that the USDA would open our borders up to Canadian beef would cause US cattle farmers to lose billion of dollars and the USDA even said it was acceptable to the World Organization for Animal Health for Canada to have 11 cases of BSE (Mad Cow Disease). Since when do we, "THE USA", get our economic or health and welfare polices from the World Organization for Animal Health? The only sane thing to do is extend the ban 30 months from the date of every positive BSE test. We lost 5% of our demand when Japan banned US beef back in Dec. 03 and now with Japan agreed to start back purchasing US beef we are jeopardizing this agreement by sending a message to the World, we will allow our Beef Supply to be Compromised. The USA has a Certified BSE FREE Heard so why should we compromise our position like this even if there was a risk of only One Positive BSE case. Please understand quarantine and eradication will protect us economically and healthwise.

Ron DeHaven,head of USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, made some interesting statements today concerning the health risks.
"USDA remains confident that the animal and public health measures that Canada has in place ... combined with existing U.S. domestic safeguards and the additional safeguards announced" on Dec. 29 as part of re-opening the border to Canadian cattle "provide the utmost protections to U.S. consumers and livestock," Ron DeHaven, head of USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, said in a statement.

One U.S. senator, Democrat Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, called on USDA to pull back its move toward expanded trade with Canada.


"In light of the fact there has now been another confirmed case of BSE in Canada, it is clear the responsibility of the USDA should be to immediately suspend efforts to open that border," Dorgan wrote in a letter to Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman.

DeHaven said USDA took into account the possibility of additional Canadian cases when it wrote the rule on resuming cattle trade.


Under guidelines of the World Organization for Animal Health, a country can be classed as presenting minimal risk of mad cow disease if it has less than two cases per million head of cattle over 24 months of age in each of the previous four years.


Since Canada has roughly 5.5 million cattle in that age group, "they could detect up to 11 cases of (mad cow disease) in this population and still be considered a minimal risk country, as long as their risk mitigation measures and other preventive measures were effective," DeHaven said.

Even Democrat Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, got this one correct.
Please work to extend the USDA's Ban on Canadian Cattle until such time Canada has had a 30 month period of BSE Free testing

Mark
From Tennessee

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Al_Wa
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 237
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Volhollow]
      01/04/05 02:12 PM

Mark, seems like you would like it both ways. Continue to punish Canada for the single BSE case and at the same time stop the punishment by Japan on US exports for a single BSE case.

Also consider the following:

Both the beef industry and the USDA acknowledge that eventually another mad cow case is likely to be discovered among the 40 million adult cattle in the United States. About 1 percent of the herd, or 446,000 cattle, are considered in the targeted "high risk" category, according to the USDA, because they are not ambulatory and do not show signs of other ailments.

The USDA ruling, effective March 7, declared Canada a "minimal-risk region" so that cattle could be shipped into the United States under certain restrictions. The cattle must be slaughtered by the age of 30 months, which scientists say is too young to contract mad cow disease, and they must be transported in sealed containers to a feedlot or slaughter house.


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Volhollow
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Reged: 11/07/02
Posts: 13
Loc: East Tennessee
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Al_Wa]
      01/05/05 08:41 AM

Canada punished themselves.
This is not health issue it is an economic issue. If we allow the border to open livestock producers and feedlots will lose $100-200 an animal. The packers win, because they will not lower their exit prices and the livestock owner gets kicked in the butt. BSE has been propagated in the dairy industry in Canada because they need to intensively feed dairy cattle to produce.
We do not kill downers now in the USA so it will be unlikely we will have any beef cattle testing positive. Opening the border destroys the public and world confidence in a our Beef Heard being BSE FREE.
This whole thing smells of someone getting some money under the table.

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egon
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Volhollow]
      01/05/05 03:11 PM

But you do check for Scrapies do you not.

Egon

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Chuck52
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Reged: 10/12/02
Posts: 295
Loc: middle Missouri
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Volhollow]
      01/06/05 10:39 AM

Herd.

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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Volhollow]
      01/06/05 03:09 PM

I completely agree with you Mark. While I think the world of the canadians on the board here this is going to severely impact the cattle industry here in the states. There is a massive letter writing and congressman calling agenda to halt this.

First of all Canada is NOT BSE free now. Canada also does not have nearly the restrictions and regulatory controls that the US does. The case of mad cow disease in the US CAME from Canada. I understand the cattle market in Canada is suffering but it does no good to subject the US to the same fate.

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kensfarm
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Reged: 03/12/03
Posts: 30
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/06/05 03:59 PM

It seems it's politics at it's worst.. catering to & bending the rules for big businesses to make a profit. For cattle.. it's open the borders.. for pharmacy drugs.. it's illegal to import/export.. (same drugs.. but somehow the drugs would be unsafe for the U.S.).. we can't have the U.S. paying less for medicine.. it'll cut the profits for the big drug companies.

I feel sorry for the Canadian Beef farm families.. like being a farmer wasn't hard enough.


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cowboydoc
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: kensfarm]
      01/06/05 06:05 PM

I completely agree that I feel sorry for the Canadian ranchers. I wonder though if the situation was reversed if Canada would even think about opening their borders.

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Tallnthesaddle
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Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 9
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/06/05 09:04 PM

I don't think it's a matter of "if," Doc, I think it's a matter of when. Looking at Al Wa's number of 446,000 cattle targeted in the "high risk" catagory, something's got to give. After all, we imposed the animal byproduct feed ban in 1997, as did the US, and while R-CALF is claiming that there are still problems with Canadian feed, they fail to point out that, according to an MSNBC News report on April 27,2004, "Just under 100 U.S. companies have recently violated regulations meant to prevent the spread of mad cow disease, according to new records from the Food and Drug Administration."

Mark Dopp, the American Meat Institute's senior vice president for regulatory affairs and general counsel made some interesting statements at the end of the year. While he was addressing the issue of a partial ban of Canadian cattle (anything over 30 months can't go over the border) I think he makes some interesting points.

Dopp noted that some cattle producers in the Northern Tier states support maintaining a ban on all beef and cattle trade with Canada. "Those who hold this view are taking a narrow-minded, short-term approach to what will become a long-term problem if fundamental economic restructuring continues in the Canadian packing industry," Dopp said. "Instead of behaving like the Hatfields and McCoys, which seems to be what some groups prefer, we need to behave like the integrated North American meat industry that we have become."

Dopp also called "utterly irresponsible and unscientific" attempts to justify this partial ban with claims that Canadian beef and cattle are somehow "less safe" than U.S. beef and cattle. "We've said it before and we'll say it again. Calling Canadian beef unsafe is like calling your twin sister ugly," Dopp said. "The U.S. and Canada both have implemented state-of-the-art, meat inspection and animal disease prevention systems. As we look across the borders, we see near mirror images of one another."

Dave


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cowboydoc
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Tallnthesaddle]
      01/07/05 12:31 AM

I disagree with you Dave because the ONLY way to maintain the BSE free status is to NOT allow in beef from other countries that have BSE cases. It's all about public perception. Tonight on the evening news there was a whole story on how safe your meat is. They did a story on how we are going to allow canadian beef back into the US and now there is another case of BSE in Canada. It's not just about the #'s but about public perception as well.

I know Canadians have protested against the mad cow disease and that has hurt beef consumption in your country. It's also a fact that Canada's beef consumption is significantly less per capita than the US. It's also a fact that on all sides of this there is unscientific information going on. At this point however with a brand new case of mad cow disease being found it is only going to further damage beef prices and production in the long run.

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egon
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Reged: 09/12/02
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Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/07/05 07:13 AM

BSE and animal movement and processed feed

I have the opinion that the whole processed animal feed industry must be looked at more closely. I am under the impression that a processed diseased cow may be used for poultry feed. The poultry in turn could be used in ruminant feed. There appears to be cross contamination occuring in processed feed shipping operations. If feed economics are such someone somewhere will not abide by the regulations.

The solution may be quite simple. No more processed feeds as in my mind therin lies the problem. Add to that limitation of all live animal movement.

Not feasable but one can dream of only grain and grass fed produce on the store shelves.

Egon



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Pat
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Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 4904
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: egon]
      01/07/05 11:11 AM

As regards the concept of an integrated beef industry (that some would like to see suffer an integrated fate)...

The Navy through the ship's CO treats all sailors more or less the same with regards to their workplace safety up to the time where the water tight integrity of the ship is compromised by damage to one of the compartments. This is when that compartment is sealed whether it is occupied or not until the condition is remedied and the compartment can be opened without endangering the ship.

Canadians are not being singled out for punishment. Quarantine procedures would be applied to say Montana if Montana had BSE cases. Few would argue that it is unfair to restrict the movement of cattle across Montana's borders if they had BSE cases. Who would argue that since Montana is one of the states of the union it deserves to be treated equally. It would be treated equally! It would be treated the same as any other state with BSE cases. It would be quarantined.

I too feel for the plight of any group who suffer from an economic hardship which they, as individuals, may be powerless to prevent. If anything is to be learned from this BAD situation it is that we need a change in our process. Clearly we aren't getting the desired results so we have to change the process. You can't just carry on with buisness as usual and expect somehow that things will fix themselves.

BSE is not a "natural" situation. It is a preventable condition brought on by human intervention, a human engineered process is responsible. We need to get serious about this situation and take the neccessary steps required to adequately deal with it. Taking cheap shots back and forth across any border is ineffectual and counterproductive. We need less politics and more vet science to be applied.

Pat

"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"


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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Pat]
      01/07/05 01:06 PM

You are absolutely right Pat. I don't think any US beef producer wants to see canada penalized. Your ship analogy is perfect. It doesn't make sense for the whole industry to sink. One, WE"RE TALKING ONE, case in the US triggered our cattle industry to collapse for a number of weeks. You couldn't even take cattle to the sales for awhile!!! Remember I said ONE CASE. We lost most of our trade in beef. We have slowly built that back up with Japan ready to come back on board. If we get another case it will be the same thing. It doesn't matter that it can be prevented. What matters is perception. Does an educational campaign need to be underway? Yes it sure does. There are still many hurdles to jump over in this process. Throwing Canada right back into the middle of it with a brand new case of BSE is not going to do anything to fix the problem.

The latest statistics from the USDA even says that prices will be significantly impacted for 12-24 months before normalizing. All this is doing is baling out the Canadian beef problem by making it our problem. In a month or less the prices here will drop and will be the same situation as it is now in Canada, maybe not as bad but now you will have two countries with beef prices less than the cost of production. How anyone on either side of the border thinks that is rational is beyond me.

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Tallnthesaddle
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Reged: 01/06/05
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/07/05 03:32 PM

You know, folks, we agree on a lot of things. Perceptoin is a key element in this situation, Doc, and we have to make sure consumers understand that beef is safe.

I don't blame the US for closing the border. It was the right thing to do at the time. Pat, the ship analogy was excellent and yes, we need a lot more science. But considering that millions of animals have gone across our border both ways, I think it's a mistake to believe we're not in this together and that the US herd is BSE free. I think we need to be working together to get this straightened out.

As far as perceptions go, perhaps someone can straighten me out on some confusion I have over the roll of the USDA. It seems to me that the Agency is charged with both promoting the sale of meat and at the same time ensuring its safety. There have been some pretty distressing reports relating to this.

On April 23, 04 United Press International ran the following under the headline: "USDA VETS: DOCUMENTS FALSIFIED FOR YEARS:" "The U.S. Department of Agriculture has pressured its veterinarians into falsifying official documents for as long as 20 years, former agency veterinarians told United Press International. The allegations come as a current USDA veterinarian and an attorney representing federal veterinarians have made similar charges about existing internal practices at the agency's Food Safety and Inspection Service. The veterinarian -- who requested anonymity because of feared repercussions from the agency -- and the attorney, Bill Hughes of the National Association of Federal Veterinarians, allege the present FSIS management takes retaliatory actions against veterinarian inspectors who do not obey orders from superiors to sign certificates that falsely assert certain food items are safe for export. In some cases, Hughes and the veterinarian charge, even though food items may violate those export requirements, veterinarian inspectors still are expected to sign the documents."

Reuters News Agency had this to say on May 05, 04: "USDA AIMS TO COMPLETE TEXAS COW PROBE THIS WEEK:" "The U.S. Department of Agriculture hopes to find out by the end of this week why the government failed to conduct a mad cow test on a condemned animal in Texas, a senior official told Reuters on Wednesday. On Monday, the USDA said it had not followed standard procedures when it did not test a condemned cow at the Lone Star Beef plant in San Angelo, Texas.

Ron Hicks, a senior official at the USDA agency conducting the investigation, said regarding a report that an Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service supervisor may have decided to not perform the test: "That's one of the points we're trying to do a follow up on and find out." Barbara Masters, acting administrator of USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service, said, "We are working as quickly as we can to interview individuals. We hope to finalize that remaining work in the next couple of days." Masters and two other USDA officials, in a telephone interview with Reuters, did not respond directly when asked whether the agency has broadened its probe to include the farm where the condemned cow came from."

Also from UPI and published in the Washington Times on May 11, 04. "USDA ORDERS SILENCE ON MAD COW IN TEXAS:" "The U.S. Department of Agriculture has ordered its inspectors in Texas not to talk about mad cow disease with outside parties. United Press International has learned that the gag order was sent May 6 by e-mail from the USDA's Dallas district office. It was issued in the wake of the April 27 case at Lone Star Beef in San Angelo, in which a cow displaying signs of a brain disorder was not tested for mad cow disease despite a federal policy to screen all such animals for the deadly disease, otherwise known as bovine spongiform encephalopathy.

The order reads: "All BSE inquiries MUST be directed to Congressional Public Affairs Phone #202-720-9113 attention Rob Larew OR Steve Khon. This is an urgent message." Representatives from the National Joint Council of Food Inspection Locals -- the national inspectors union -- alleged the order suggests the agency is concerned about its personnel leaking damaging information about the Texas case."

And...from SFGate.com on Mar. 03, 04 "GOVERNMENT LAUNCHES CRIMINAL PROBE IINTO MAD COW CASE:" "The government has begun a criminal investigation into whether records may have been falsified in the nation's first and only case of mad cow disease, the Agriculture Department's inspector general said Wednesday. In a separate investigation, the General Accounting Office is checking the feed industry's compliance with a Food and Drug Administration's rule aimed at keeping the infectious protein blamed for the disease out of cattle feed.

The criminal investigation is moving alongside a non-criminal review of the Agriculture Department's response to the mad cow case, the department's inspector general, Phyllis Fong, told a House subcommittee. Fong said the criminal investigation focuses on whether the infected Holstein cow truly was a "downer" cattle unable to stand or walk when it was slaughtered Dec. 9 in Moses Lake, Wash. The department initially said the cow was a downer, and that was why it was tested for bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or BSE. Downers have a higher risk of the brain-wasting disease. But men who saw the cow at Vern's Moses Lake Meat Co. just before it was slaughtered recall it being on its feet."

And why, I wonder, won't the USDA let Creekstone Farms Premium Beef in Kansas test for BSE privately?

My perception is that there's a big cover-up going on here and that a lot of people are going to be unhappy when the truth sees the light of day.

Dave

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Al_Wa
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 237
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Tallnthesaddle]
      01/07/05 06:34 PM

Dave and Mark, welcome to CBN.

Edited by Al_Wa (01/07/05 06:35 PM)

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rockinmywaypa
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Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 42
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Tallnthesaddle]
      01/08/05 05:13 AM

These are the situations that I had tucked in the back of my mind but couldn't substantiate here on the list, thank you for presenting them in an irrifutable fashion. What about sheep bison goats and other ruminates that got caught up in the net, should they have been shut out for this period also. You could falsely argue about scrapie but go to any sheep list and you'll find out that this is also a common problem.

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RonNY
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Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: rockinmywaypa]
      01/08/05 01:50 PM

Having been directed by MikePA to this thread, here is my BSE question:
Every time I hear that Beef is safe when slaughtered by 30 months old , does that mean the same calf is not safe at 36 months. I must give you a what if situation to clear up my question,

1) calf is born from a Non BSE Infected healthy 4yr old Cow on
1/1/03
2) calf & cow are fed feed that is infected with BSE byproducts
0n 6/1/03 until 6/1/04 approx. 1 yr
3) 1/1/05 both calf (2yr old) and cow (6 yr old) are slaughtered
for human consumption

CALF (2 yr old) is consumed by 100 people. How many people are potentially infected with BSE by eating this CALF ?

COW (6 yr old) is consumed by 100 people. How many people are potentially infected with BSE by eating this COW ?

Ron





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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: RonNY]
      01/08/05 05:23 PM

BSE is a slow progressing disease. No you probably wouldn't be affected by the younger calf is the current research. The other thing that people need to remember is that you ARE only affected if you eat the nervous system. This would be the spinal cord and the brain. You would not be affected from any animal if you only ate the meat and not the nervous tissue.

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RonNY
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Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
Loc: NY
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/08/05 06:38 PM

now that is where it gets confusing.
The 2 year old calf is safe but if I let him grow to a 6 yr old that same calf (now cow) would be contagious to humans and would not be allowed into the human food chain
So the current USDA thinking is even though the prions that cause the BSE disease is lurking in the body of this 2 yr old calf and because it has not affected the brain of the calf, this contaminated calf at 2 yrs old is safe to eat for humans. It seems that because we don't have a test sensitive enough to detect BSE in the early stages so it must be O.K. to eat. Would anyone like to play Russian Roulette ?. We won't know if the USDA made a BIG mistake for 10 yrs, that is how long Great Britian took for the human outbreak in that country. Sorry to say Cowboydoc, I have slowed my beef consumption when the first (and second) Canadian cow was made public, but with the third cow now confirmed in Canada and the reports from a Vancover newspaper that 41 out of 70 animal feed samples tested in Canada contained "banned" annimal byproducts. Once that border opens its possible a lot of people will stop eating beef in the U.S.
It just does not make sense?

Ron




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Al_Wa
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 237
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: RonNY]
      01/08/05 11:01 PM

Ron,
Once that border opens its possible a lot of people will stop eating beef in the U.S.
Thats the catch 22. Both Doc and Mark acknowlede this is not a public safety issue but an economic issue.
Mark:Canada punished themselves.
This is not health issue it is an economic issue.

Doc:I completely agree with you Mark.

Both, I'm sure are a lot closer to the distribution than the consumption.

Mark and Doc, I would be saying the same as you if I were in your position, and though I'm not I do support you. The odd's of contracting BSE is somewhere close to being snuffed in a plane crash

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cowboydoc
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Posts: 642
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: RonNY]
      01/09/05 03:34 AM

What the ridiculous thing Ron is that it doesn't even matter if you eat a downed cow as long as you don't eat the nervous system tissue.

It's also ridiculous because ranchers like ourselves NEVER EVER in a million years would use the kind of crap they feed to cattle in Canada and in some of the feedlots in the US. And most of the lots don't feed it. Canada does not have our vast year round pastures, cheap corn, and massive hay production. They need something cheaper to feed to their cattle, just like the UK where this all started. Mind you there has NEVER been a confirmed case of Mad Cow disease from a US born animal. Now our wonderful USDA seems to think we need to make it our problem. US beef IS the safest beef in the world. Smaller producers like Mark and medium producers like ourselves fatten our cattle and grow our calves on good old USA pastures, hay, and corn. We don't use animal byproducts, never have. But yet we are going to be punished for the sins of others. That's why we've had it. You bust your tail your whole lives to build something up and some idiots looking for quick profits and a messed up USDA and other govt. screwups want to punish the small time guys for it. Well it's the small time herds that make up the cattle industry. It's just enough to make you mad.

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Tallnthesaddle
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Reged: 01/06/05
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/09/05 06:29 PM

Doc, given your medical background, I'm wondering if you could clear up a point for me regarding RonNY's query. Given our CURRENT understanding of the pathology of BSE and the incubation period, would the older animal also not be considered safe? I'd also be interested in your views on the prion vs. unconventional virus and a virino debate.

I'm not going to dispute the fact that feed mills here seem to be having a problem keeping animal byproducts out of feed. I'm sure that in light of the USDA report I cited in a previous post, you won't argue that the US seems to be having the same problem. As Egon pointed out, not feeding any animals to animals would go a long way to sorting this issue out. And I think this needs to be an all encompassing ban. It doesn't matter how careful the mills are, if some yahoo decides to give his cows some hog feed that is legally allowed to contain animal byproducts, we're back to square one.

I'm disappointed at your perception of our feeding and farming practices up here, Doc, but I know how fear and worry can change the way we see things. Contrary to what you might think, we don't live in a land of perpetual ice and snow, feeding our animals lichen, moss and other "crap." I'm sure you're aware of the fact that there's a marked difference in production of beef and dairy animals, and it's usually the dairy side (in both the US and Canada) that relies on the high protien feed "supplements" that appear to be causing us all so much grief. As you know, Canada and the US both instituted the feed ban in 1997. Until then, according to USDA numbers, 14 percent of all cattle slaughtered in the US were ground up and fed back to other animals. I'd also point out that we haven't had to deal with a BSE positive animal that was born after that date.

We farm 6 quarters and generally rent another. We run 80 to 90 stockers and background about 200 calves over the winter. We like to calve in February/March and our cows are on pasture from late April 'til early October. We produce all our own feed. We feed a combination of hay and rye/oat/triticale silage to the cows over the winter and the calves in the feedlot get the same silage with barley. We look for an average of 3 ppd gain. No, we don't have cheap corn, but government subsidy is something for a different thread. I might add, Doc, that when the (American) buyers come for our animals they certainly don't have any complaints about the quality we offer.

Just for the record here, I'm not in favor of opening the border either, Doc. I think one of the fundamental issues we're dealing with economically is the push by the packing industry to create a vertical structure to the industry. Their efforts to make a profit don't always fit well with the cattleman's effort to make a profit. In simpler terms for the folks that aren't in our business, Doc, the American packing industry got used to using Canadian feedlots to hold cattle so they could avoid price variances in the US. And please understand, when I say I think the border should be closed, I mean both ways.

I honestly think Canada has treated the U.S. beef industry fairly:
When the U.S. found BSE in Washington State, Canada did not close its borders to U.S. boneless beef products or animals for slaughter. Canada took this decision before the birthplace of the Washington State cow was known.
Canada has delivered on a long-standing U.S. cattle industry objective to gain year round access for U.S. feeder cattle into Canadian feedlots.
Canada has allowed all U.S. beef products to transit its territory enroute to Alaska. Canada has not withdrawn this privilege in the face of USDA's decision to halt transshipment of some Canadian products to Mexico.
After USDA's unexpected April 19 memo, Canada completed what is normally a 60 day regulatory process in 48 hours to reciprocate.
After the U.S. withdrew its April 19 memo, Canada did not roll back its access for U.S. products.
Canada has supported U.S. efforts to open the Mexican market to U.S. products.

My belief that the border should be closed both ways is based on the fact that we're finally getting our own packing and marketing industries developed and it's time for us to pursue new markets. I'm confident that the world is going to recognize Canadian beef as a safe, desireable product and I think the discovery of a homegrown US BSE case is just a matter of time.

After saying that, Doc, I still think we need to work together to get this BSE issue sorted out. It's no longer a Canadian problem or an American problem, it's a North American problem. When the UK was having trouble we both just skipped along like we weren't part of the world. If we've learned one thing from their experience it should be that PR isn't the answer to the problem. We need, as two countries whether we trade or not, to agree on stringent controls to assure consumers that our product is safe.

I'll also point out that the worms are out of the can, Doc. You've had an identified case of BSE. (More to come, if you all have the belly to find them - we do.) I'm sorry the animal came from my country. And while I realize that under WHO the US can claim to be BSE free becuase it wasn't a home grown animal, the US beef supply is not the safest in the world. That distinction now, regretably, goes to Australia and New Zealand. They have not identified either an imported or homegrown case of the disease.

Sad thing, isn't it? Farmers kicking other farmers. But I guess that's what it's come to.

I really do wish you guys luck, Doc. We're all going to need it.


Dave


Edited by Tallnthesaddle (01/10/05 12:44 AM)

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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Tallnthesaddle]
      01/10/05 08:56 AM

Given the current background you could eat the meat of a 10 year old cow who had BSE and not contract it. As far as the debate goes the predominance of the evidence favors the prion theory. It's just like AIDS. We think we know how the disease works but it's still just a theory. What isn't a theory is how the disease is transmitted. It's a very preventable disease on both fronts. Don't have sex and you won't get AIDS. Don't feed animal protein to cattle and you won't get BSE. Simple. Problem is greed, selfishness, and stupidity.

I do know in the US all of the major mfg. of protein for ANY animal do not use animal protein under any circumstances. As far as the USDA covering up any potential BSE cases I again think that's baloney too. There are too many whistle blowers in this country. It's kind of like the alien debate. Are there aliens living here. I highly doubt it. Just like I highly doubt there is anyway that a case of BSE could be covered up. There are too many people involved before the USDA gets involved. Most of the feedlots are doing their own checking and testing. The govt. here can't keep you from doing that.

As far as Canadian practices I only know what I've directly seen. I'm not saying there aren't some very fine ranches there that produce an excellent product. I don't think I've said that Canadian beef was inferior. If you look at my last post I said there were US feedlots doing stupid things as well. From what I've seen and from talking to friends we have who are ranchers in Canada it is more widespread and your government isn't stepping up like our government has to control it. The controls and enforcement according to them are too lax. Now that's straight from your fellow ranchers mouths not mine.

As far as the beef packers they are also against opening the borders. They have filed a lawsuit seeking to prevent this. This is done with the Cattlemens association, feedlot producers, and beef packers. It's a united front.

I'm not saying not to work together. BUT just opening the borders is not going to fix the problem. All of these problems should be worked out before the borders are even thought of being opened. All of the research should be completed, a PROPER plan of dealing with BSE should be enacted, and there should be animal tracing. Now that's just my opinion but right now none of these things are worked out.

As far as the US export to Canda right now it is near zero. The reason is because beef is ridiculously cheap in Canada right now. Nobody is going to export beef there and lose 50 cents a pound or more on it.

Look the problem is real. Opening the borders is not the solution. Working together is a viable option and I believe that is being done. Right now though is not the time to create economic hardship for the US for a blind policy. There is not one good thing but fear, price collapse, and economic hardship for producers and sellers that will come out of this.

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Tallnthesaddle
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/10/05 07:01 PM

Doc, I'm heartened to hear you say, "I do know in the US all of the major mfg. of protein for ANY animal do not use animal protein under any circumstances." I was under the misapprehension that poultry and hog feed could still contain animal protien products. For that matter, I was under the misapprehension that cattle feed could contain animal protien from hogs and horses. I am aware that the FDA, in their effort to bolster firewalls against BSE has made some changes to feed. I'll just quote directly from the memo issued on January 26, 2004:

"This interim final rule will implement four specific changes in FDA’s present animal feed rule. First, the rule will eliminate the present exemption in the feed rule that allows mammalian blood and blood products to be fed to other ruminants as a protein source. Recent scientific evidence suggests that blood can carry some infectivity for BSE.

Second, the rule will also ban the use of “poultry litter” as a feed ingredient for ruminant animals. Poultry litter consists of bedding, spilled feed, feathers, and fecal matter that are collected from living quarters where poultry is raised. This material is then used in cattle feed in some areas of the country where cattle and large poultry raising operations are located near each other. Poultry feed may legally contain protein that is prohibited in ruminant feed, such as bovine meat and bone meal. The concern is that spillage of poultry feed in the chicken house occurs and that poultry feed (which may contain protein prohibited in ruminant feed) is then collected as part of the “poultry litter” and added to ruminant feed.

Third, the rule will ban the use of “plate waste” as a feed ingredient for ruminants. Plate waste consists of uneaten meat and other meat scraps that are currently collected from some large restaurant operations and rendered into meat and bone meal for animal feed. The use of "plate waste" confounds FDA's ability to analyze ruminant feeds for the presence of prohibited proteins, compromising the Agency's ability to fully enforce the animal feed rule.

Fourth, the rule will further minimize the possibility of cross-contamination of ruminant and non-ruminant animal feed by requiring equipment, facilities or production lines to be dedicated to non-ruminant animal feeds if they use protein that is prohibited in ruminant feed. Currently, some equipment, facilities and production lines process or handle prohibited and non-prohibited materials and make both ruminant and non-ruminant feed -- a practice which could lead to cross-contamination."

Of course, their reference to the fact that: "Recent scientific evidence suggests that blood can carry some infectivity for BSE." kind of blows the argument that it's safe to eat downers and their direct reference to the fact that: "Poultry feed may legally contain protein that is prohibited in ruminant feed, such as bovine meat and bone meal." makes me wonder why all the feed producers who were legally using animal protiens suddenly stopped. If the FDA passed some legislation since the publication of this memo that I missed prohibiting this type of feed, I'd really appreciate a reference to it so I can study up. It's exactly the kind of law that's needed.

I don't know if there are any whistle blowers that will expose BSE, Doc. After all, there are creditable reports that I noted in a previous post that, "The U.S. Department of Agriculture has pressured its veterinarians into falsifying official documents for as long as 20 years,..." This doesn't instill me with the confidence to believe a cover up couldn't happen.

You also say that, "Most of the feedlots are doing their own checking and testing. The govt. here can't keep you from doing that." Once again, things have apparantly changed. I was under the impression that the USDA was not allowing people to do their own testing as evidenced by a letter that John Stewart, C.E.O. of Creekstone Farms Premium Beef sent
to Undersecretary J.B. Penn United States Department of Agriculture dated April 13,2004. In the letter, Mr. Stewart says, "On behalf of Creekstone Farms I want to thank you for the opportunity to have met with you in Washington, D.C. last Thursday, April 8. We had hoped for a different outcome to the meeting, however, and are very disappointed with USDA’s decision not to allow Creekstone Farms to voluntarily test all of the cattle we process for bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE). As we have discussed in the various meetings held with the USDA over the past several weeks, BSE testing of our cattle is something our export customers and consumers are asking for, and we feel we should be able to provide it to them."

It surprises me that you would say Canadian ranchers and farmers don't feel enough is being done to combat BSE. Given the proportionate size of our respective herds, I think we've instituted an excellent testing regime that exceeded our target by over 7,000 head in 2004. I would also point out that unlike the US, we're testing ALL 4D cattle. I'm assuming this is based on the theory that if you're looking for a fire, the best place to start is where there's smoke.

It surprises me as well, Doc, to hear that Tyson Foods, Cargil, Farmland National and others have filed a suit to stop the border opening. I was under the impression that they were laying people off and closing plants in an effort to force the US Government to open the border. The argument, I believe, was that they didn't have enough volume to sustain these plants/jobs without Canadian beef.

I'm also concerned about what kind of perception people might have of this "united front" you mention. I believe on May 28, 2004, 'Beef Magazine' took strong exeption to some of R-Calf's strategies when they said, "While the industry reaction to R-CALF's earlier attacks on the safety of U.S. beef were widely condemned, most critics considered them unfortunate lapses in judgment that some organizations make in the heat of the battle. R-CALF made it clear this week, however, that the organization believes that the end does justify any means.

The group held a press conference on Thursday, hand in hand with radical anti-beef activist groups, to denounce USDA's handling of the BSE situation. The press event in Washington, D.C., questioned the safety of beef, and called for government hearings on the matter.

The decision to align with such radical anti-beef groups seems all the more surprising considering that many within R-CALF hope to make the organization mainstream and represent producers on a wide spectrum of issues. Instead, this latest R-CALF blunder seems to push them more in the direction of radical activism than mainstream representation.

As could be expected, the National Cattlemen's Beef Association and other groups issued blistering press releases questioning R-CALF's decision and motives. It's shocking, following the disastrous statements regarding beef safety just a few weeks ago, that rather than issue an apology, the organization confirms to all that it is willing to destroy beef demand in order to further its isolationist, protectionist, anti-trade policies.

For a moment, consider the caliber of groups R-CALF publicly aligned itself with this week:

The Consumer Federation of America (CFA) is famous for opposing irradiation, and pushing for the reduction of beef in the school lunch program among other things. CFA's leader, Carol Tucker Foreman, is famous for her anti-beef rhetoric and efforts to stir up the hysteria about the safety of our product.

The Consumer Union (CU), along with CFA, have been two of the leading groups pushing since Dec. 23, 2003, the message that beef is unsafe. You've probably read the multitude of inaccurate statements by CU "leader" Michael Hansen in the popular press. Hansen and the CU have also led the crusade against biotechnology and GMOs.

The following is a quote from former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop in regard to Hansen's rhetoric: "Unfortunately, a few fringe groups are using misleading statements and blatant falsehoods as part of a long-running campaign to scare consumers about a perfectly safe food ... it is necessary to condemn these attacks ... for what they are: baseless, manipulative and completely irresponsible."

Then there's Public Citizen (PC), which gains its supposed credibility through founder Ralph Nader. But PC is best known for its membership in the Global Safe Food Alliance, formed by such animal rights organizations as Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, the Western Organization of Resource Councils, Farm Sanctuary, etc., to put out anti-meat messages. "

I don't know aobut you, Doc, but these aren't exactly the kinds of people I want to stand shoulder to shoulder with in my fight to save the beef industry.

I note with some interest a report published in the East Texa News on August 05, 2004. Again, I'll just quote directly and let the article speak for itself:

"August 5, 2004 - In mid-July, Canadian feedyards reported to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that R-CALF USA members have cattle in their feedyards - a situation the feedyard owners opposed.

"On one hand, they (R-CALF) are saying to the American public that our beef is unsafe and unfit for the American public to consume," said Mike Sears with Chinook Feeders, one of the feedyards where R-CALF members have cattle.

"And, on the other hand, they're up here buying cattle, trying to profit from that same situation. They're being fairly hypocritical, as far as we're concerned."

Sears' comments were reported in the July 23 Texas Cattle Feeders Association (TCFA) newsletter, which also reported Canadians are threatening to prevent shipment of fed cattle, owned by an R-CALF USA director, from going to slaughter.

Imports of cattle from Canada were suspended following the determination a cow with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE), found in the United States in December 2003, came from a Canadian herd.

Bill Bullard, R-CALF CEO, said the organization has "no membership criteria" that delves in the members' personal business matters.

He also pointed out the current focus should be on the BSE testing protocol, rather than who owns cattle in Canadian feedyards.

"Several recent reports from Canada suggest that members of R-CALF USA have thousands of cattle in Canadian feedlots," Bullard said on July 28. "Supposedly, these R-CALF members bought Canadian cattle cheap, in a market depressed by export restrictions imposed by the U.S. and other nations, seeking to realize inflated profits when prices are expected to jump once exports to the U.S. resume.

"It is possible that some individual R-CALF members have cattle in Canadian feedlots. They could lose money if exports to the U.S. don't resume quickly enough," Bullard said."

We do agree completely on the issue of animal tracing, Doc. And while the US system is still voluntary, I am pleased to tell you that Canada has had a mandatory system in place since January 01, 2001.

And yes, I realize there haven't been a lot of cattle coming across the border to us from the US, Doc. Not much point if you can't fatten 'em up on the cheap and then ship 'em back across the boarder.

Dave





Edited by Tallnthesaddle (01/10/05 10:38 PM)

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Tallnthesaddle
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Reged: 01/06/05
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Tallnthesaddle]
      01/11/05 05:24 PM

I think you might get your wish, fellas. We've got another.


at 14:50 on January 11, 2005, EST.

OTTAWA (CP) - There's another confirmed case of mad cow disease in Canada but this time it involves an animal infected after a feed ban meant to prevent further cases.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency says it confirmed Tuesday a case of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) in an Alberta beef cow just under seven years of age. It's the third Canadian case in just over a year and the second since Christmas. All involve Alberta cows.

Officials said no part of the animal has entered the human food or animal feed systems.

Agriculture Minister Andy Mitchell said he has ordered six measures, including determining how the animal became infected and reassuring trade partners that Canadian beef is safe.

"This is not unexpected," he told a news conference. "Although this animal was born after the feed ban was put in place (in 1997) preliminary information indicates the likely source is contaminated feed and this will be the focus of our investigations."

"I am directing the CFIA to conduct an examination of what this animal may have been fed early in its life and the potential feed source."

A ruminant to ruminant feed ban was introduced in 1997 to stop the spread of the disease through infected tissue. But officials said some infected feed may have been consumed shortly after the ban.

The U.S. banned Canadian beef imports last year, but has slowly allowed more material in and is set to lift the import ban in March. After the last case, the U.S. Agriculture Department said it still planned to reopen the border.

The American ban has cost the Canadian beef industry an estimated $5 billion.

Officials warned that more BSE cases are expected, but the number of cases is expected to be low and will likely fade as older animals most at risk for the disease die or are culled from herds.

World Health Organization guidelines allow for a certain number of BSE cases even in minimal-risk countries. Under those guidelines, Canada could have 11 cases of mad cow during a consecutive 12-month period and still be considered a minimal risk country.

BSE has no cure or vaccine. Humans who eat infected meat products can develop a variant known as Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, a fatal brain-wasting illness.

Since the BSE surveillance program was enhanced in January 2004, Canada has tested more than 24,000 high-risk cattle.



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Volhollow
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Reged: 11/07/02
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Loc: East Tennessee
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Al_Wa]
      01/11/05 05:57 PM

Al WA,
You have a greater chance of catching the Flesh eating disease from Africa than the human equivalent of MAD Cow Disease. You would have to eat the infected nervous system parts like spinal cords, etc. These parts are not even used in potted meat or other processed beef products. Downers are tested and destroyed in the USA. Downers from other mishaps such as birthing problems are destroyed as well. There is no accidental way BSE could enter the USA food chain system. Even a terrorist could not plant it here because it is not communicable disease to humans or animals.

This is an economic issue and the non-factual Dan Rather's, Oprah Winfrey's and PETA members should never get a chance to tell their lies about our USA BEEF. Extend the Canadian Ban 30 months

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Al_Wa
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 237
Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Volhollow]
      01/11/05 07:17 PM

Mark, lets see:

BSE
Flesh Eating disease from Africa
Snuffed in a plane crash


I'll take mine "snuffed in a plane crash"

Looks like the US was handed the hammer (Canada BSE) and we will keep it as long as we can but for different reasons. (economic advantage) Consider what happens when the next BSE case shows up in the US.

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cowboydoc
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Tallnthesaddle]
      01/12/05 08:25 AM

This is ridiculous. The fact that we're even talking about still opening borders is nonsense. If this was the US there wouldn't even be talk of it on your governments side.

As far as your "thesis" projects on news articles that are usually an article because of the inflammatory nature of them I could post just as many rebuttals from the opposite side. But let's just stick to the facts and not "alien" like theories. The fact is the US has NEVER had a confirmed or otherwise case of BSE for US born cattle. The fact is that I do not know of one single mfg. that still uses any sort of animal byproducts for ruminants or horses. If there is you prove it. You give me the name and mfg. that uses anything like that. The fact is Canada now has THREE confirmed cases and from your own governments admission that infection came from the feed!!! Yet you want to post all this garbage about how great your government is controlling the feed in your country? Give me a break. I'll take the ranchers word for it that your government has turned a blind eye to it. The proof is right there in the cattle and the fact that your government says there are even more cases to be expected!!!!

My goodness this whole thing is utterly ridiculous that we are even having this conversation. The airwaves in the my area on talk rado are full of this thing. Caller after caller calling in saying no way they are going to buy beef or eat it anymore. The scare of having Canadian cattle is going to have it's own effect whether or not the stupid USDA keeps the ban or not. Great job USDA and Canada you've successfully more than likely crippled the beef market once again.



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cowboydoc
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Al_Wa]
      01/12/05 08:28 AM

Consider what happens when the next BSE case shows up in the US

IF it ever shows up we deserve the same market collapse that Canada has had and we deserve no help to open any border. If we are stupid enough as producers as a whole to do anything to let any cow get the disease then we deserve economic disaster. It's a completely preventable disease if we just do the right things.

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Tallnthesaddle
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Reged: 01/06/05
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: cowboydoc]
      01/12/05 10:26 PM

I don't think it's ridiculous that we're having this dialogue, Doc. I think we need to be talking openly about all the facts AND all the misconceptions about BSE.

I'm sorry you find documented stories about things like the USDA forcing inspectors to sign on off on false reports, the fact that the BSE infected cow in Washington was NOT a downer and the like inflamatory. I'd prefer to hear all sides of the story.

Now, you say you "could post just as many rebuttals from the opposite side." Well, Doc, why aren't you posting these rebuttals then? I've been pretty careful to point out what was my opinion and to cite the sources of all the material I've quoted. Haven't heard much from you but "he said, she said." Let's hear the facts from the other side.

My response to your statement of 01/10/05 and I quote:
"I do know in the US all of the major mfg. of protein for ANY animal do not use animal protein under any circumstances." (the caps on ANY were yours, Doc) was to illustrate that animal protien is still being used in poultry, and I believe hog feed. The ruling from the FDA over not using poultry litter in cattle feed is designed specifically to prevent spilled poultry feed from getting into cattle feed. You might recall that I said I think we need an all encompassing ban on feeding animals to animals. I believe my point was that it doesn't matter how careful the mills are, if some yahoo decides to give his cows some hog feed that is legally allowed to contain animal byproducts, we're back to square one. I also stated without equivocation that: "...feed mills here seem to be having a problem keeping animal byproducts out of feed."

And in response to to the post you made to Al Wa., I really do, honestly, hope you fellas never have to face the problem, Doc. It's awful.

Dave

Edited by Tallnthesaddle (01/12/05 10:28 PM)

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RonNY
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Reged: 04/07/04
Posts: 51
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Re: Canadian Beef Ban Should be Extended new [re: Tallnthesaddle]
      01/12/05 10:32 PM

Tallnthesaddle
Go to the tread you split off this one ( Milk Replacer )
I have A COUPLE MORE POSTS ( Questions ) about this matter and I don't feel like typing all nite to put them on this tread.

Ron



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