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ThistleKop
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Good cattle dog and friend?
12/13/04 09:44 PM
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My friend Lady, a black&white border collie, age 13, is getting old and arthritic, as I am. She is very helpful in my small cow/calf operation. She has some faults but considering that I know little about training cow dogs, and that I trained her she does quite well.
Considering Lady's personality and our relationship, I feel that I should not bring another dog home until she passes on. I would like to hear opinions from people who use dogs working their cows. I would especially like to here from owners of working Border Collies, Australian Shepherds and Australian Cowdogs. I'm interested in their strengths, weaknesses and personalities. I chose the Livestock forum instead of Pets forum on CBNET hoping to get more useful input. Thanks.
TK
Edited by ThistleKop (12/13/04 09:46 PM)
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Pat
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/13/04 10:21 PM
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It has been my observation that a new dog will be taught by the experienced dog. A local equipment dealer leaves his gate open when he is open for business and there are cattle able to get to the gate BUT his border collie will not permit them to even think about getting near the gate. Same story, dog is getting on in years and he gets a pup. He is getting on himself and was not looking forward to having to try to train the pup. NO PROBLEM. Pup is smart and the old dog let him "help" so that in no time at all the pup knew the routines that the old dog had established. Now in cool weather the old dog spends more time close to the wood burning stove in the main building and doesn't handle every situation.
Your mileage may vary...
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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cowboydoc
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: Pat]
12/14/04 08:21 AM
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I completely agree with Pat. Get a pup and let the old dog help to train him. We always do this with our dogs. We usually have three dogs or more working at a time but we're working sometimes a 1000 head of cattle.
As far as breeds your smartest dog is the border collie. But they are also the most timid. If you have really gentle cattle that won't ever fight get a border collie. If you have tougher cattle that will get on the fight, especially with calves at their side, the Austrailian cattle dogs are much better. They are alot tougher. Not all but alot of collies will lose confidence after getting kicked a few times. The Aus. will get kicked 100 times and keep coming back for more. The Austrailian shepherd is going to be somewhere in between the two. It won't be as aggessive as the Aus. cattle dog but more aggressive than the collie. And breeding plays alot in it too. I will never buy a dog that I can't see the parents work cattle. I've seen alot of worthless dogs in all three breeds. All are good dogs you just need to pick what works best for your situation and really look at the temperment of the breeding you're getting.
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ThistleKop
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: cowboydoc]
12/14/04 10:07 AM
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I completely agree with Pat. Get a pup and let the old dog help to train him.
Thanks Pat & Cowboydoc,
As I stated earlier, Lady while very helpful, has some habits that I hope will not get trained into the next dog. That's what I fear; It will get both the good and bad habits. Lady was rolled very severely as a puppy by an obstinate cow. I knew that probably would make her or break her with regard to agressiveness. Thankfully she got up and came back for more.
I guess I'd like to try training one again without her help.
Also Lady does not roam, watches our place quite well. How are the other two breeds in that respect? Thanks.
TK
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cowboydoc
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/14/04 10:14 AM
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If they are spayed and neutered you probably won't have a problem with roaming. If they aren't then I have never found one that would stay home in any of the three breeds. You will find that the Austrailian cattle dog is your best watch dog.
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johnday
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Loc: monroe michigan, barton city soon
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My buddy, Spike, Border Collie, and? 
Trucks are red, Tractors are blue.
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mfaley
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/14/04 05:53 PM
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TK,
when I first read your post I admit I thought you were headed down another path. If I had a good old dog I would sure find a companion they get along with. We have a 13 year old broke down and worn out Belgian Sheep dog that only works his food bowl any more. A year ago on a cold morning we found a half froze lab/mut mix in our back yard. Since then, that working dog has a bit more git along in his giddy up.
As others have mentioned your list of dogs is a good one though after owning our Belgian I would consider looking for another. If we could not find another Belgian, I think I sort of like the Aus Shep as the right mix of traits for what we want.
Best of luck.
Mark
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ThistleKop
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: mfaley]
12/14/04 07:51 PM
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Mark,
Lady, with the help of 4 interic .81mg aspirins each morning is still quite active. She is amazing, helps me with the cows, helps mow 2.5 acres of lawn. When I am clipping my pastures with the bushhog, I've had to start confining her in the basement. This is for her own protection. She would trot until she could scarcely get up the next day. Have you used your Belgian to work livestock? What are Belgians' traits? Thanks.
TK
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ThistleKop
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: johnday]
12/14/04 07:59 PM
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and?
Johnday,
Beautiful dog, Borders are a remarkable breed. Did the "and" ending your post mean his father was a "smooth talking traveling salesman"? He looks full-blooded border to me.
TK
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mfaley
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/15/04 01:36 PM
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We did not get him to be a working dog but by nature and some input from some friends he sort of ended up that way.
Once he spent some time with some Border Collies he picked it up quickly. And, for a short time, that became a bit of a problem as he wanted to herd everything. A little more work and he could be called off. After looking at the working dogs it seems like a Belgian is between the Border collie and the aussie but tends to be just a bit bigger. We dont see many Belgians but our experience has been pretty positive.
Much like with you with Lady, we are forced to limit his activities. He still wants to run around but then he is crippled up for a week. It's tough to see his face light up when we drive by some cattle all the time knowing that he cant work......he surely loves having a job to do. Sounds like Lady is the same. By the way, how is Lady with a Frisbee?
Regarding that asperin thing......we did that for a while but then it started to upset his stomach. After trying a number of different things from the vet, we settled in on Deramax along with Glucosamine. Something to consider.
Best of luck with Lady.
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johnday
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/15/04 05:05 PM
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Thistle; Yeah that's I mean! Never heard it put like that before. Spike is one the rescues, actually I went up and untied him from a clothes post. He had a 6' foot lead on a 5' post. He couldn't even get to his water dish that was a good 4' away. The previous owner had took him in on trade for a rock of crack.  The older lady that lived there told us this. We told her we'd take him and give him a good life. Really it's the other way around! My wife is an RN that was visiting this lady. He may be 100% Border but it really doesn't matter. He's just a great dog, tries to herd the cats and other dogs. I didn't know that sometimes they are timid. Spike can be, but I thought it was because he may have been abused, at any rate, he was definetly neglected, but not anymore, he's by far my favorite!
Trucks are red, Tractors are blue.
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ThistleKop
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: mfaley]
12/15/04 06:17 PM
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I never did attempt to get Lady going on the frisbee. If the grandsons lived closer I'm sure they would have. So far the coated aspirins have worked quite well for Lady.
Lady is hardwired, that is she does everything the same way all the time. Example: this summer she got in her head that I had to "sit" while she ate. When my butt hit the chair she would hurry to begin eating. Who's got who trained? With winter here, I am disobeying her.
TK
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ThistleKop
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: johnday]
12/15/04 06:33 PM
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Johnday,
Sounds as if you and Spike have a win/win arrangement. That's a great matchup. There seems to be a great deal of variability in Borders' dispositions. Lady in some cases is timid. Has a genetic snapping instinct which is useful with livestock. Doesn't bite humans but I still watch her around children. No children at our house on a regular basis. When she was young she would make a quick dash for my heel when I started to get on a ladder or tractor. I finally broke her of that. Like I said earlier she's not perfect but what a loyal and useful friend.
TK
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mfaley
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/16/04 03:32 PM
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TK,
Very funny! They are no end of amusement.
Mark
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rookie
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: mfaley]
12/18/04 12:27 PM
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We have an Australian Cattle Dog, (Blue Heeler), and she is the best worker and greatest friend we could ask for. She's tough, smart, loyal, and loving. She always knows what's going on around our place. She has never roamed, but just wants to be with whatever human is working outside. This dog can move cows like crazy -- doesn't matter how ornery the cows get, she'll move em. The amazing thing is, she has never given our horses a second glance. She leaves them alone. She's fine with the tractor and other equipment. You just can't have her around if pull-starting something, or she'll try to mix it up with the recoil. We never have figured that one out! At the end of the day, she lays on the couch and watches tv with us. I know a lot of folks don't approve of that, but that's how we like it. She's good to our other little mutt, and the cat, as well. All in all, a perfect dog!
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mfaley
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: rookie]
12/20/04 03:02 PM
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Well you sure cant beat that! Anytime you can get a dog that fits you thats a good deal. I guess I am like you, I get attached to dogs and like having them around. Barn, house, truck, pool....it does not really matter as they tend to be good for a laugh.
A lot of folks sure like those dogs and I have seen some of them take a real pounding and not even seem to notice it.
Post some pictures if you have them.
Mark
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Hondo
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/21/04 12:01 PM
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I don't know if you'll find this helpful, or not. A male Australian cattledog adopted us nearly three years ago. Tried to run him off, but he'd decided we were his pack, and as it turned out, he was right. Couldn't imagine a more loyal, interesting pooch. Doesn't roam, is always ready to accompany us anywhere, and is a great watch dog. He's not been trained to work with cattle, but he loves them - practically drools over them when we drive down the county road - but barely notices horses, goats and llamas. He's also an excellent scorpion spotter (they like the house in early summer) - he crouches and stares intently - and has done this with the only snake we've encountered together, as well. I haven't trained him to do this; it just came naturally. He also likes to, well, sing. He picked this up from our schnauzer, and whenever my wife breaks out her recorders, we're in for a canine duet. I'm ever so grateful that the dogs don't accompany mandolin and guitar, as I play them much more frequently...
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ThistleKop
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: Hondo]
12/21/04 07:01 PM
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he crouches and stares intently
Hondo,
That stare is probably the best weapon that stock dogs have. It's referred to as "eye". They intimidate what ever animal they're working to get them to do what they want. The more "eye" the better when looking for a stock dog. I've put the Aussie high on my list to replace my border collie when she is gone. Thanks.
TK
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ThistleKop
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/21/04 07:09 PM
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Hondo, in my last post I responded as if your friend was an Australian Shepherd. You stated it was an Australian Cattledog. Sorry about that. Both those breeds are on my list along with Border Collie. Lady, my border has been plenty aggressive to work cattle but that is not the case with all borders. The breed you have, I'm told is the most aggressive of the three breeds.
TK
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/23/04 03:18 AM
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this post reminds me of the best dog I've ever had. Ben was 2 generations away from a north american sheepdog trials champian, Ross I think. His mother was imported from Scotland. The breeder I got him from is a neighbor that used to run up to 5 dogs at once using his own whistles for commands, no plastic fakes. He was getting up in years and I was shearing his sheep which were slated to be sold. He wanted this last dog to be around sheep so he traded him for a box of lamb for the freezer. That border collie had more smarts than most people I've met, he seemed to understand everything I'd say to him. I could let him out of his kennel and tell him where the sheep were out and he'd run straight for them, sometimes a half mile away.Thing was He had no use whatsoever for the wife or kids and could be quite nasty if they got into his area,although most of the time he'd go away from them. John the neighbor said that was typical with the best dogs. His best job was grafting lambs, If I had a ewe with a single and I wanted to double her up with a triplet I'd put her in a claiming pen with both and tell Ben to hop in, He'd jump over the gate, circle around the ewe and lambs and jump out. The ewe would panic, count her lambs to protect them and 9 times out of 10 would bond to both.
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ThistleKop
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Rockinmywaypa,
Thanks for relating about your friend. They are truly amazing dogs. So intelligent. Someone said if you get a Border you best find things for them to do. If you don't they'll find things to do and you may not like them.
TK
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Re: Good cattle dog and friend?
[re: ThistleKop]
12/25/04 08:44 PM
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Yes sirree You don't want them running on their own. Hey do you like my handle? My wife left me so now I'am rockin my way pa. as opposed to rock in my way pa.
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Tami
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My Coco is a mix between Austrailian Shepard and Springer Spaniel. I am told that she has more of the qualities of an Australian Shepard than the other. She is the smartest dog I have ever known. She is loyal as can be. She herds my chickens. The first time a hen got out and she went after her I was really upset thinking she was going to kill her but she caught her, put her chin on ht ehens head and her paws on each wing thne craough in her tummy and waited for me. We were stunned. She seemed to knw what to do instinctively. Since then we have been training eachother. I have increased my flock and she takes care of them. 2 years ago she spent a lot of time with me when we got the new chicks, last year she raised the chicks - yep- jumped into the brooder box and they sniggled under her as if she were their mom. When they got into fights, she stopped the fights, sometimes having to pick one up in her mouth and move it. They fought for a space under her hair when they got bigger. She goes into the chicken yard and they do whatever she says, not out of fear,, out of love and she does comand them with just a look. She is their mamma. She raised most of them.
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