|
goat
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/24/04
|
|
Posts: 53
|
|
Loc: Alabama
|
|
Cow calf farm
08/24/04 09:24 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
I have rented 300 acres of pasture land here in Alabama. My intentions are to start a cow- calf operation. I am wondering if anyone has any advice. I have never owned cattle before so most any advice will be helpful. The only information I have is from listening and watching local cattlemen ,reading college information on cattle farming.
I have a lot of spare time . Although I dont have to make a profit I certainly wouldnt mind making a little extra money. Thank you in advance for your time
Post Extras:
|
|
mysticokra
|
|
Silver Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/14/03
|
|
Posts: 168
|
|
Loc: Jackson County, Al
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
08/24/04 12:45 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
What part of Alabama? There is a "Grazefest" in Montgomery on September 11-12th. Some of the people you should be reading will speak there including Joel Salation and Teddy Gentry.
The Sustainable Ag site at http://www.asanonline.org/2004_GrazefestAlabama.html
says "Full day of farmer and farm-industry education workshops followed by a chef-prepared dinner featuring pasture-raised foods. Speakers including Jo Robinson, Teddy Gentry, Joel Salatin, Gearld Fry, Kit Pharo, Allen R. Williams, and Bill Casey
Cost: Free, preregistration required
Registration forms can be downloaded at http://www.eatingfresh.com/
Grazefest Banquet Featuring Pasture-Raised Meats (Saturday night)
Guest Speaker: James Horne of the Kerr Center for Sustainable Agriculture
Cost: $20; Children 12 and under free"
My quickest source of valuable learning has been via AcresUSA at http://www.acresusa.com/magazines/magazine.htm
Read anything by Charles Walters. Eco-Farm is great.
I also liked Bill Murphy's "Greener Pastures on your side of the Fence" for a good how-to on rotational grazing.
Also get a subscription to the Stockman Grass Farmer.
See http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.com/sgf/
I also have a friend who is breeding Dexters, if you haven't settled on your type of cow yet.
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
08/24/04 02:58 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
My best advice would be to wait. Cattle are at an all-time high right now and you are going to pay alot to get going. It's very easy to lose alot of money when cattle are this high.
Post Extras:
|
|
goat
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/24/04
|
|
Posts: 53
|
|
Loc: Alabama
|
|
|
Cowboy doc --- I hear what your are saying about waiting but If I dont rent the land now there may not be another chance to rent land this close to my location. Do you think it would be wise to rent the land,3500 per year, and wait on cattle prices to go down?
If I dont take any profit from a 50 cow operation am I going to loose money if the price goes down 20 or 30 %?
Thanks for your input I really appreciate it.
Post Extras:
|
|
egon
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/12/02
|
|
Posts: 3031
|
|
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
08/24/04 08:05 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
It would sound like you had best draw up an action plan detailing the economics of your situation.
Egon
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
08/25/04 04:31 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
If I wanted to do it I would buy feeders. If the price goes down you may not make any money but if you've got the grass to feed them you should come out even on the cattle as they will gain. If you've got good pasture that should be all they need besides mineral supplement and a little protein supplementation. Also if you decide that you don't want to do this and the cattle are too much work then you don't have cows to sell which you will lose your shirt on if prices come down.
Post Extras:
|
|
goat
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/24/04
|
|
Posts: 53
|
|
Loc: Alabama
|
|
|
Thats not a bad idea. I think they call them stockers. I will look into it.
Post Extras:
|
|
Pat
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/15/02
|
|
Posts: 4904
|
|
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
08/29/04 09:25 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
If you opt for stockers vice cow-calf you want to be sure you have GOOD FENCES. Cows that are kept for years LEARN the routine. Their calves usually don't want to stray too far from the moveable feast (mom) but stockers are burgers on the hoof and don't mellow.
The other GOOD ADVICE is to find someone who knows a heck of a lot more about animal husbandry in general and cattle in particular than you do and get them to help you "handle" your stock. Reading is one thing and a demo at a dinner meeting of the local cattlemens association is nice too but until you have put stock through a squeeze chute and used a head gate, innoculated IM and sub-Q, know when to aspirate the syringe, "install" ear tags, castrate, dehorn (cauterize the spurting arterial flow) etc. your "petting zoo" is likely to get out of hand and not be fun or profitable for you nor healty for the animals.
Gone are the days of Texas Longhorns, range cattle who were hardy and smart and could fend for themselves most of the time. Most of todays breeds NEED proper intervention to "make it."
Just remember the guickest way to wind up with $20,000 dollars raising beef is to start with about $40,000. Still, if you don't mind the hard work and can keep your feet out from under theirs you could give it a whirl. I sugest that if you don't have access to a good working consultant (not the extension agent but someone who can spend a workday with you every so often) the smartest thing you might be able to do is to start smaller. Try 10 head for a year, learn something, and then decide if you want to scale up or quit. Since you say you don't have to make a profit, starting smaller should insure against the downside losses. You might be glad you had some extra time to get pastures in shape as well.
Yeah cattle prices are pretty high and lots of folks are afraid of being caught on the downswing which could really put you in the red if it was a large "correction." There are also smart folks who think prices will stay up for a couple years or so longer. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
Best of luck to you,
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: Pat]
08/30/04 03:01 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Feeders will settle down as well as any cattle. We really have no more problems with cattle we've had for 10 years opposed to feeders we get when we have extra feed. Your older cows will find a hole in the fence just as quick as the new ones. It's just as hard or easy, depending on your fences, to keep fresh or older cattle in.
All cattle will settle in if they are exposed and trained the right way. Whether you work them on horseback or on foot. Daily graining or just going out and being with the cattle will get most any herd settled in a week or two.
Our cattle are all registered either hereford or angus and they are on their own 11 months of the year. We have over 50 sections of land that they roam on and except for the occassional calf loss to coyotes we rarely lose a cow or a calf. Cattle don't need any special treatment. They should be watched when they are calving and given the right supplement when needed for the forage they are getting. Other than that vaccinations once a year and doing all of your branding, castrating, and dehorning at one time in the spring or fall. If you buy polled cattle you won't have to worry about the dehorning part of just get a vet to come out and do it.
If you are raising feeders then you don't even have to worry about any of the castrating, branding, dehorning, vaccinations, etc. If you bought cattle from us they are 100% ready to go. All you need to do is turn them out of pasture and watch them grow. If you buy from the sale yards they have vets at every sale that will take care of dehorning, castrating, vaccinations, or any other vet work that needs to be done. There are also special cattle "select" cattle sales. At the select sales the cattle are 100% guaranteed healthy and guaranteed to have been pre-conditioned. Pre-conditioning includes everything that is needed for the next year of that calves life. Only when you have a cow/calf operation will you have to worry about all the other headaches.
Their certainly is alot of little things that a knowledgeable person could help with but for the most part raising a small herd of cattle isn't that difficult.
Post Extras:
|
|
Pat
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/15/02
|
|
Posts: 4904
|
|
Loc: SouthCentral Oklahoma
|
|
|
goat, Be sure to check in with us and give us a report on how easy and trouble free your 50 head were for a newbie. If you elect cow-calf maybe you'll share tales of "pulling" calves at 3AM. These ttales are often interesting.
Some of my pasture was getting out of hand so I borrowed about 50 head of "well socialized" stock to graze it down. First time I ever saw a full grown cow walk out through a catle guard. But then I am not very experienced and I still am getting to experience many things for the first time. Some fun, some interesting, and some neither.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Post Extras:
|
|
goat
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/24/04
|
|
Posts: 53
|
|
Loc: Alabama
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: Pat]
09/01/04 12:03 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Thanks for the advice. I am very excited and ready to get started. I am sure I will make some mistakes but I figure I should get better with experience and I have to start somewhere. I spent a lot of money going to college and earning a degree in a unrelated field. The way I figure , a college degree cost money and so will a few mistakes in a cattle operation. Im not scared of blood, needles or hard work . I will keep you updated.
Post Extras:
|
|
mfaley
|
|
Gold Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 03/30/04
|
|
Posts: 256
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
09/01/04 07:00 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Goat,
We dont have enough room to run cattle but we are near a lot of big ranches. I think the only thing I would add is to make sure you dont overgraze. During fall and early winter we frequently have to saddle up and push cattle back after they walk through fences looking for better feed.
Pat, "Some fun, some interesting, and some neither."
Best answer I have ever heard related to cattle.....or life for that matter.
Mark
Post Extras:
|
|
twsdallas
|
|
New Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 07/07/04
|
|
Posts: 3
|
|
Loc: Texoma
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
09/01/04 08:09 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
This is the thread I've been waiting for. I want to do the same thing and I want to do it right. The question I always wanted to ask the pros is if you were starting from scratch what would be the smartest first step. I have about 40 acers of good grass and about 20 of not so good. I've got good fence and would like to start a small herd. I've always heard that cow / calf pairs were the way to go but maybe stockers are a possiblity.
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
|
It all depends on how labor intensive you want to make the effort. Your maximum use of your pasture is going to be a rotational grazing system. This requires moving cattle every couple of days though. Your benefits are going to be nearly 100% as opposed to 50% pasture utilization, better growth, better weed and erosion control, and the list goes on and on. Then you need to be reseeding every few years, fertilizer, etc. All this just depends on your soil and what grass you already have. Within two miles of my property I treat each place completely different. One place is pretty much black soil and the other place is sandy clay. I grow one pasture mix on one and another mix on the other one. My grazing times are also very different.
With regard to cow/calf vs. feeder cattle to start out with I would no doubt go with feeder cattle. With feeder cattle you get them in early spring and sell in late fall. This way you don't have to worry about hay and feeding over the winter. YOu also reduce your losses due to disease. Also in the winter you are going to need more shelter, sacrifice areas to feed hay, etc. Then you have to worry about a bull. You also need to worry about getting all your cows pregnant and then you have calving in the spring. Now if you are experienced and know what's going on all of this is not an issue. But trying to learn cattle, learn breeding, learn calving, castrating, vaccinations, etc. If you buy feeder cattle you can buy preconditioned cattle and your mortality rates go down to near zero and your work also goes down to near zero unless you are rotational grazing. Do feeder cattle for a couple years and then if you can handle that ok move up to a cow/calf operation. Just realize you are going to have 10x the work and need to know 1000x the information.
Post Extras:
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
09/11/04 07:09 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Sounds like you are already commited on the land. What is the history of the pasture? Who had it leased before? What class of stock? how many? was it a long term deal or has it been used by several operators in the past few years? Talk to the neighbors.
Also, due to the economics of farming/ranching today, many young men with hands on experience don't have capital and make good help. Look at feed stores and auction barns(in the back, working the penning).
Or maybe, sub-lease the pasture to someone in exchange to get to help them for a year when they buy, sell, "work" their cattle.
If you think we're all telling you to go slow, you're right. Good luck and please stay posted. You are courageously attempting the dream of more folks than you know.
Dave
Post Extras:
|
|
lynxpilot
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/14/04
|
|
Posts: 46
|
|
Loc: Ava, MO
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
10/14/04 08:33 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Count me in as #3 doing the same thing. The only advantage I have, however, is that my uncle (very experienced beef and dairy) and cousins (both doing dairy and have done beef) live about 10 miles from me. The only thing nobody can seem to help me on is my initial purchase. I had wanted to raise cow/calf using purebred black angus only, but wanted to buy bottle calves to start. Finding bottle calves seems to be a problem and everybody says I'll have to go with a cow/calf pair to start as well as a weaned bull. When my starters are 700-1000 lbs., it starts getting expensive. Anybody know where I could buy, for example, a v-small bull calf and maybe 2 heifer calves (pure black angus, but not necessarily registered)?? Wouldn't even mind the chore of bottle training and weaning. I'm on 62 acres of mediocre pasture/soil and plan on doing 'management intensive' grazing, so my herd will never exceed about 25 or so. It's not a living for me as I work full time and have a retirment check coming in as well, but I'd sure like it to pay more than it takes away. Also, if I may be allowed to hijack a little more, are vaccinations required in order to sell? Are they there to protect against herd mortality or to the end consumer? Thanks in advance.
Dave
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
|
You aren't going to find any black angus calves for sale unless it's a fluke. Maybe the mother died or something. But nobody that I know of is going to sell a calf before it's weaned and ready to go. That's where the profit is. You don't make money selling a newborn calf as a bottle feeder.
As far as vaccinations go it all depends on your herd. If you never have other animals on your property and feed out your cattle some of the sickness vaccines are not needed. But if you are going to sell as feeders you won't get near as good of a price as you would if they were vaccinated. Anytime there's even a chance of the cattle going off of your property it's a good idea to get the vaccinations done. If your cattle are certified pre-finished. Meaning you can show the vaccinations were done, they were fed accordingly, etc. you will get a premium for your cattle. We are in this program and while it takes more to get the cattle ready you more than get it back in the pricing.
Post Extras:
|
|
lynxpilot
|
|
Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/14/04
|
|
Posts: 46
|
|
Loc: Ava, MO
|
|
|
Thanks for the quick back. To expand on the vaccination thing, ideally I'd like to market the steers direct (restaurant, organic grocer, direct customer, farmers market, etc.) so I'm less concerned about their sale barn value. I was wondering if any USDA requirements would mandate any vaccinations that were given to prevent consumer diseases. In the endless effort to label my product as 'natural' or maybe 'organic' (if I could ever get certification), one of the things I was targeting was no vaccinations (to go along with no petroleum based fertilizer, no hormones, blah blah the list goes on).
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
|
Vaccinations and growth hormones, questionable feed etc. are two different things. Vaccinations are certainly encouraged even with organic fed beef. What you have to be careful of is antibiotics. That will cause a red flag.
I don't want to burst your bubble but you will have an extremely hard time selling to restaurants or organic. It is quite a process to be certified organic. Restaurants usually go for the best of the best in beef. Not saying you couldn't raise good beef but they are very picky and you also have to have a constant supply. If they need three steers now and you don't have any ready for 2 months that will be the last time they call.
Your best route will be to go direct customer. I'm certainly not trying to discourage you but the other routes are going to be very tough to get into and you will have to do alot more than make it a hobby to get into those other arenas. Going farm market is an option but there's alot of time, insurance, and storage that goes into that aspect of it.
Post Extras:
|
|
jonrjen
|
|
New Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/15/04
|
|
Posts: 19
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: goat]
10/15/04 06:36 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
In an earlier post someone stated, gone are the days of the Texas Longhorn. Not entirely true. Longhorn cattle are becoming very popular once again. They are one of the easiest cattle to raise. Very very little birthing problems. Docile temperament. Beautiful to look at. An extremely hearty animal. Requires much less attention. As I was once told "Longhorns managed to live for hundreds of years in West Texas, with nothing to live on buy scenery" Now let me tell you if you have never been to West Texas.......There ain't much to look at. Longhorns are marketable to various areas, such as show cattle, roping cattle, pets, organic lawn mowers (a number of large corporation in Texas use Longhorn to graze excess land around their corporate campus).
If you are looking for a unique meat to market, grass fed/grazed Longhorn offers one of the healthiest selection of beef on the market. The wife went to a local "Central Market" last week, in the meat counter you could buy Longhorn ribeye steaks......for only......$19.98 per pound. Some internet prices are even higher. One internet link sell only Longhorn gound beef. If you haven't searched Longhorns out it may be worth a click/search of the computer.
Now there is always a down side to everything. A Longhorn that is being grazed will not grow as fast as soom other breeds on Cattle. The hanging weight of a Longhorn will only be somewhere around 60 to 65% of its hoof weight. This is in part however due to the fact that the Longhorn has very little fat in its cut of meat.
Any way that is just my two cents worth of thought for the day. I could go on, but for a first post.........I'll just leave having given my post a food for thought.
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: jonrjen]
10/15/04 08:34 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
I completely agree with you on the longhorns. If you have the time to make it work in a niche market it could be profitable. Problem is finding the market. They are good for roping cattle though. We raise alot of corrientes and they are basically the same thing. These we sell to ropers. You can do pretty good raising these. If they are good looking roping cattle you can get $450 for them in a year. They also don't need alot but you want to feed them lots of protein to get good horn growth.
Post Extras:
|
|
jonrjen
|
|
New Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/15/04
|
|
Posts: 19
|
|
|
|
|
I was also doing Corriente for a while, then we did the Longhorn /Corriente mix, by mixing the breeds you could get a little quicker growth for ropping cattle as well as quicker/broader horn growth.
One way to market the Longhorn meat is with in friends and family connections. Word of mouth. Atkins dieters should love the Loghorn for it's health qualities. I will sell the cow to an individual or two who may want to share. I sell by the pound per hanging weight. If the new owners want to pick out their head of cattle that is fine. I ask them how they want their meat cuts (steak, roast, burger, ect) Then I deliver the Longhorn to the processing plant (I am lucky, the plant is less than 2 miles away). Once I get the hanging weight, I collect my money.
They pick-up their meat and pay for the processing at that time. Currently the processing is .38 per pound hanging weight. Depending on market conditions and prices, I can usually get twice the market value, and the comsumer get some great, healthy meat (burgers, steak, roast, stew meat) custom cut and processed at a price of less that ground chuck in the grocery store.
Edited by jonrjen (10/15/04 12:06 PM)
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: jonrjen]
10/15/04 04:23 PM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
Couldn't agree with you more on everything. We do the purebred corriente's just because you can usually sell them for $100 or more per head being registered. They seem to last longer for roping than the longhorns do. But if I was in it for the meat aspect I would definitely do what you are doing.
The only thing I do different than you is I sell on the hoof. I also have the customer call the butcher and tell him how they want it. The customer then picks up the beef at the butcher and pays the butcher bill.
Post Extras:
|
|
boze_man
|
|
New Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 10/18/04
|
|
Posts: 1
|
|
|
|
|
howdy all
anyone have any input on buying registered vs commercial?? i have been looking at buying 3-7 reg. angus bred heifers instead of commercial. any pros/cons?? is there a lot more risk in the 1st calf heifer vs a more experienced cow?? and what should the price diff be??
thanks for the feedback
bill
Post Extras:
|
|
cowboydoc
|
|
Veteran Member
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/11/02
|
|
Posts: 642
|
|
|
|
Re: Cow calf farm
[re: boze_man]
10/29/04 08:30 AM
|
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
|
|
It all depends on how you want to do it. Selling registered cattle is usually more profitable BUT you really need to have them in tip top shape. This means preconditioning them before sales which takes time and more effort. If you just want to calve them out and let them run on pasture and then take to the sales you're going to be better off with just commercial cattle.
You are also going to have more upfront costs. I would buy the best cows that you can afford and then ai to the top bulls. That is how to really make it pay. Buying a top bull is going to be tough to do for a limited herd. Plus keeping a bull is royal pain if you are on a small place. The good thing is you are surrounded by some of the best registered angus herds in the country. You will have no problem getting some good stock and ai'ng to top bulls.
Post Extras:
|
Previous
Index
Next
Flat
Threaded