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be careful with yer horses!
03/23/04 12:50 AM
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Our veterinarian, an old seasoned pro large animal guy, was kicked in the head today by a pregnant mare. The poor lady had planned on building a chute type contraption that would put 1/2 inch plywood under the horse's tail, nailed to posts, that someone could back her up against, but she needed to be seen today, before they got that gate built. He's gone into surgery. He was hit in the right top side of his head, and they say it caved in his sinus cavity up on top. He never lost consciousness, and got away from her. Thank God he had his best large animal tech with him, who was able to yank the horse away from him before she connected a second time. If you have horses, and don't have a chute arrangement, consider building one, especially if you have unruly animals. I'm gonna build one Saturday. We have two horses boarded here... they are friendly, but we've never had a catastrophe either. That can all change when you least expect it. Doc'll survive, but he's in a lot of pain. Keep him in your thoughts please... C1
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beenthere
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Sounds like the title of this thread should be "Be careful with yer Vet".
Sorry to hear about the vet, but I would think a seasoned vet would take responsibility for his own well-being, and not rely on "the poor lady" (whoever that is?), and not have his head in a place where the horse can kick it in.
As a kid, working with a vet on horses, we didn't have a "chute" that had 1/2" of plywood "under" the horses tail, nailed to a post. I would guess it is the plywood that is nailed, not the tail. I can conjure up all kinds of images of what that arrangement is, and most of them turn out to make me chuckle a bit.
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egon
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: beenthere]
03/23/04 09:38 AM
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There are many vets that will not look at horses due to the danger involved.
Egon
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: beenthere]
03/23/04 11:56 AM
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re: the chute- He (doc) is not complaining about that, I mentioned it because it sounded like a great idea to me. And the plywood is nailed to the posts, not the tail.
The poor lady was what I called the horse's owner because she and her family probably feel terrible right now, though it is NOT their fault.
Since you worked on horses with the vet as a kid, you would probably recall that there are situations where you HAVE to put yourself in that undesirable position.
After all, around here a vet is called either when an animal is too sick to get on a trailer, or when an animal is too unruly to get on a trailer. I'm prone to believe the latter is true here, but I don't know for sure. She was known to be somewhat temperamental.
The owner asked him (the doctor) to provide this service. He (the doctor) was always careful. Not much you can do when your palpating the inside of a horse and she (the horse) decides to go ape on you (the doctor)... right? After all, you're up to yer shoulder in her (the horse's) backside... Do you remember now? Or have you never seen this done?
I'm not blaming anyone at all. I just posted in hopes of letting folks like me learn a different way of doing things if a different way was warranted.
I have a gelding that can get a little unruly if I'm not around. I'm gonna build a chute so that someone else (like my wife) doesn't wind up killed under a horse.
Egon- true. If I find one around here , I plan to put this chute up in hopes that they'll have an easier time at my place if he or she is needed. I don't think this guy will stop doing horses, he's too cantankerous for that. He'll just hafta be more careful, I reckon.
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Slyder
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At the risk of being offensive, I have to disagree on two accounts. One: Conservative1 states, "It is NOT their (the owners) fault." I feel it is the owners' responsiblity to train horses for any given situation; even emergencies. What preparation was done with this mare to be handled extensively during pregnancy? How many 'strange' handlers were introduced to her before she was impregnated? Could she be touched everywhere and remain calm? What was her reation to the handlers? What simulated 'catastrophies' were done before a real situation occurred? As a horse owner it is your responsibility to make sure your animals are safe for everyone involved (vet, farrier, other riders, neighbors.) Contrary to popular belief good horses don't just happen...they are trained. Mechanical means such as chutes, twitches, chains, bigger bits, do not address the true problem...the horse is ill-prepared for the situation inwhich their human has placed them. Such devices may work the first time, but eventually, the horse will find away around the situation....like not allowing herself to be backed into the chute. Two: Egon stated that cases like this are why vets often refuse to treat horses. Well yes, and no. Again, it is not because of the horses behavior, but because the owners often fail to prepare their horses for vet care and attention. It is the owners the vets avoid, not the horses! Many seasoned vets will only work with familiar owners that have proven their meddle. It is unfortunate that this vet had to get hurt. Moreover it is unfortunate that the mare and now her unborn foal have been place in such an untenable situation. What vet will now handle this case?
The slower you go, the faster you get there!
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egon
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: Slyder]
03/23/04 07:26 PM
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Sorry, but its the horses the vets are scared of. Vets will work on cattle in conditions that can't really be described here but will not go near a horse under any circumstances.
Horses can be very unpredictable. Even a very quiet well trained horse may spook at the oddest of things.
Egon
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: Slyder]
03/24/04 12:19 AM
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First and most important, Doc was released from the hospital today. He broke his hand, and didn't actually have a skull fracture. It did rearrange his eyebrow a bit, and gave him a nasty cut around his eye. He will recover, thankfully. She kicked with both feet, one hit his head, the other his hand. Second, he had dealt with this horse owner before. From what I hear, they are very good longtime clients. I don't know if he has dealt with this animal before, but I assume so since he had suggested they build a chute for her. BTW- no offense taken by me on anyone here, especially you, Slyder. I guess now that I think about it, you're right. Though, there is no anger or hard feelings in this case for anyone involved. Egon- I know of what you speak! I am new to horses, we just took these two in in January. 2 weeks after they arrived, I was feeding them in the barn (a rather enclosed area). It was a windy, blustery day. The wind was gusty, and blew a flake of hay down from the loft, landing right behind him while I was standing at the gelding's front shoulder, rubbing him down a little. He spooked, turned toward me, and started to run. I was in the way. Being new to horses, I was ultra aware as I had been warned by everyone that they spook at the craziest things. He bumped me with his shoulder and head, and sent me sprawling four feet into a pile of muddy crap. I was uninjured. As I got up, he walked over and tried to nuzzle my arm... he realized, I reckon, that he had almost taken out the hand that fed him. Now, I make sure that everything is tied down and secure all around us when I'm down there with them. He spooked again one day while I was next to him. A billy goat took exception to him being in his territory, and when the billy raised up to pop him, he startled. Again, I was in the way, but able to quickly gain a position of safety where I showed that billy who was boss. They have been separated now... I have since lost my fear of him, but not my respect. I give a wide berth, and talk to him anytime I am close to him. It is a good idea, I have learned, to keep a hand on him anytime I am close... this lets him know I am there, and no danger can befall him while I am near. He has since calmed down a lot. Last night, a plastic bag blew across his hind legs. Where it came from, I dunno... but he didn't even move except to grunt and stomp a foot. I know they are jumpy. There are ways to be safe. I have taken it upon myself to learn all I can, so that I can minimize my risk, thereby minimizing his risk also. I just hope I never lose my respect for horses. that's where ya get in trouble, from what I hear. Hope this thread has helped someone else... C1
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MikePA
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: Slyder]
03/24/04 07:35 PM
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As a horse owner it is your responsibility to make sure your animals are safe for everyone involved (vet, farrier, other riders, neighbors.) Help me understand...The implication of this statement is that a horse owner is supposed to do this before a vet or a farrier can treat/service the horse? You can deal with 'other riders' by not allowing others to ride your horses if you're not sure of their skill level (or not allowing others to ride at all). You can deal with 'neighbors' with fences.
Regarding vets and farriers, it's my responsibility to inform them of my horses behavior traits, quirks, etc. as far as I am aware of them so they are as prepared as possible. Being a vet and a farrier is an inherently risky profession and accidents can happen, despite everyone's work and preparation.
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Slyder
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: MikePA]
03/25/04 06:36 AM
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Yes this training is to occur prior to the arrival of any vet or farrier service. Before I have the vet arrive for any new horse on my property, the horse is exposed and trained to a variety of situations. For example, in the round pen where respect has already been established, I will practice giving the horses shots. I train them to flex their necks slightly in the direction of the needle prick. This relaxes the muscles and allows for the needles to enter the tissue easier. This is one example of prior and proper preparation. Desensitizing a horse to scary objects also helps control the 'spooks'. While all horses have the flight or fight instinct, they can be exposed to situations, in a safe area, that will build their confidence. Spooking will occur less and if it does occur, since respect has been established, they will spook away from me, not towards me. Before a farrier ever touches my horses, they are hobble trained by a professional, taught to hold their legs up for extended periods of time, and taught to spook in place while on three feet. This takes time. A lot of time, but it is the owners' responsibility to prepare the horse. Again, look at my questions for Conservative1. Could the mare in question be touched everywhere, by anyone, and remain calm? How many hours a day, week, or year is the mare handled? And I don't mean seen, I mean handled with purposeful contact. Too often horse owners ignore a horse for days or weeks at a time and then expect them to be calm, confident, and relaxed in any situation. That just doesn't happen. When trail riding, I ment the safety of other riders on the trail. Simply observe most riders next time you are out. Do they have control over their horses hind quarters? Shoulders? Can they move their horses' individual feet forward, backward, left and right one step at a time? Can they control the speed of their horse? The distance between the horses being ridden? Can their horse handle having riders approach quickly from the rear? Can they have the horse cross obstacles safely, not just follow the horse in front of them? Again, a horse is not born knowing how to be a good trail horse. They must be trained and then expected to retain that training. As for neighbors, if you think a fence is protecting either them or your horses, you must not live near many neighbors with kids or small dogs. The kids behind me love to ride their bikes along the fence. They also love to play soccer and baseball in their back field that backs up to my pasture. Even after many discussions about safety, private property, and the nature of horses with both the kids and their parents...they still find their way into my pasture to retrieve a ball or their dog. So what did I do? I taught my horses to have soccer balls come flying at them and remain calm. I bought a cheap bike and taught the horses to ignore me while I am riding it around them in circles. Can I train for every eventuality? No. But I can establish a pattern. I can also instill the idea into their heads, when you are scared and I am near, you should be more concerned with what I am asking you to do instead of the scary plastic bag. Do my horses still spook? Sure. It is in a horse's nature. But they spook very rarely. My three year old gelding has spooked once in the two years I have had him. Once. He didn't spook when we were in the woods and a tree came crashing down to the ground five feet from us. He didn't spook when a wooden bridge broke underneath him. He stop and waited for me to tell him what to do next...because I have practiced with him enough that he trusts my judgement. When did he spook? When we came across an ostrich on a ride one day. We were with two other riders...their horses took off. He jumped and snorted and then calmed down when I gave him the calm down cue. Why did it work? Again because I practiced enough everyday, in all kinds of situations that raised his emotions...yet he still had to listen. Look, all I am saying is that prior and thorough prepartion is needed when dealing with horses. You wouldn't throw your kid into a pool and yell, "Swim. Calm down!" and expect them to do well if you never taught them to swim, or even hold their breath. Why would you expect a horse to stand quietly for anything if you didn't train them to do so?
The slower you go, the faster you get there!
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mfaley
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: Slyder]
03/31/04 01:13 PM
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Hi folks, I just hopped over from the Tractorbynet section. This is an interesting topic and I certainly hope Doc heals well. Good vets are hard to find and most good vets are good people....
My first thought is the obvious one that life is not safe, which is one of the things that makes it interesting. I think that Slyder has done a good job of outlining what works and the reality here is that the horse owner really does bear the burden of making the situation as safe as possible. Vets choose the type of animals they work on and will do everything they can to be safe. From my experience it is most frequently the horse owner that adds risk to a situation. Probably not from any malice but most likely just ignorance. More than once I have been put down by a quick shot from horses I have owned and other than the rare time a horse fly has taken a chunk out of the leg I was working on it has always been my fault.
By a huge margin, a horse that has had the proper time and effort invested in it wants to be kind and respectful. As herd animals, that's just how they are built. Do they spook and can they be upredictable? Yes. Just as cattle will blow up in a chute when they first catch a wiff of blood from dehorning, just as some dogs can exhibit fear aggression and bite. The point here is there are a lot of things a good horse owner can do to reduce risk of injury to themselves and others and the same can be said about all animals.
My 2 cents is that all horse owners can help their shoers, vets, dentists, etc, as well as themselves, with focused, educated hands on time with their horse. This does not mean a Pat Parelli video tape, an over priced flag on a stick and a 6 foot beach ball but rather spending time with your horse and a great teacher. Most folks that want help would be miles ahead with someone like Ray Hunt or Bryan Neubert to guide them.
Again....best wishes to Doc for a speedy recovery. Mark
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Re: be careful with yer horses!
[re: mfaley]
03/31/04 11:54 PM
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quick update- Doc is back at work, though in a strictly supervisory position. He looks great- stitches on his head, arm in a cast, but he looked great today. He said he's ready and rarin' to get back out on farm calls. The doctors won't let him...yet.  Thanks for the thoughts, and the good debate. C1
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