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cowboydoc
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 642
Horse slaughter
      10/01/02 08:03 AM Attachment

Here is a topic that I am currently helping to block legislation on. While on the front you may think that this is something that is wrong let me give you some facts. The US plants are the only ones that are currently regulated to any degree in North America. The plants in Mexico are an atrocity. Canada's are ok but not nearly as good as the ones in the states. Overseas it's a joke.

In the last 10 years animal rights wackos have successfully closed most horse meat packing houses. There are only a couple left in Texas now. In the US we have too many horses. Many horses are not wanted and have no value except as a lawn ornament and even then alot of them should be euthanized. Because of the cost, typically about $600 now by a veterinarian, these animals are left to suffer or are shot by their owners. Usually they don't do a good job of shooting them and the horse suffers. Or they just let the horse stand out in the field and suffer.

Now while I like horses just as much as anyone the meat packers provide a very valuable service. Just like animal shelters take in litters of dogs and cats and usually end up euth. a great deal of them there are horses that are too bad off anymore and like it or not there are horses that are just plain bad animals. Don't believe the "horse whisperers" that tell you that all bad horses are created. It's just not true. I've raised horses my whole life. I've taken wild mustangs and made them tame as your dog. I've also had horses that were hand raised from day one and regardless of the gentle handling, training methods, etc. they would just as soon hurt you as look at you.

Now I'm not asking you to change your mind one way or the other. It's just that I've seen this horse issue get pretty much out of control. We're starting to place animals on a level equal with man and people are taking it way too far. It's already happened with rodeo but that's another topic. We're heading down a slippery slope with horses. If we outlaw their butcher I guarantee you it won't be long before it happens with all animals. The organizations behind this already have plans in place as soon as horse packing is done away with to start with cattle and then pigs and on down the line.

The thing to remember is that good horses don't go to slaughter. Rarely do you see a good bred, useable horse going to the packers. What you see are crippled, blind, mean, etc. horses that nobody wants. Yes occassionally you can get a good one but that is the exception rather than the rule. Just like occassionally you get a good purebred dog at the pound but that's the exception rather than the rule as well.

Just know that there is another side to this story. If you see from the articles I've attached it is an extremely humane procedure, more so that what will happen across the borders. It won't stop the problem it will just make it harder on the horses.

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wingnut
Gold Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 260
Loc: mid-Michigan
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/01/02 11:37 AM

I understand your frustration, Richard. I love horses (and most other animals too) but have no ethical problem with them being slaughtered. As you pointed out, it's seldom the family pet that gets butchered ... it's more than likely unusable animals.

My stepfather loved horses and had no problem shipping them for slaughter. When he was no longer able to ride ... and the horses and been wild in the pasture for quite a few years ... he thought it better to ship them than to have to worry about the neighborhood kids (or his grandkids) trying to ride them and getting hurt.

The only problem that I have with horses and slaughterhouses ... and this is likely one of the reasons the animal rights nutcases got onto it ... is/was the games that some BLM folks were playing with wild mustangs. There were quite a few documented cases where they bought the horses (by themselves or through friends) for pennies and then made quite a few bucks selling them for slaughter. If they're going to yank them off the range, fine ... but not so some employees can enrich themselves. (I don't like crooks and like government crooks far less).

Anything we TBN/CBN'ers can do to help? (as you can tell, I haven't found time to read the attachment yet)

pete

it's a shame that common sense isn't
http://www.dahlhausminiatures.com


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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 642
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: wingnut]
      10/01/02 12:58 PM

With regard to the BLM deal that was back in the late 70's Pete. That kind of stuff hasn't gone on for a long time. There is a list of requirements a mile long now and paperwork to go through to adopt one now.

With regard to what you can do I mostly just wanted to know why people were so opposed to it. For the life of me I can't see it. We eat cows, pigs, chickens, rabbits, deer, ducks, geese, etc. but the dredge of the horse world can't go to slaughter. I just don't understand why people are so opposed to it. People see horses as some kind of sacred object but I'm here to tell you that a dog or a cat are much easier to make friends and make better friends than a horse. Just take foals or other horses that haven't had human contact and see how friendly they are. Yes with time you can tame them but you can tame anything. One of my good friends has a cougar and a mountain lion for pets. Horses are the #1 cause of animal accidents and are in the top 10 for causing all accidents. They aren't exactly the most people friendly animal that there is.

Anyway was just more looking to see if this is something that all people have an issue with or just the animal rights wackos. As usual we all usual suffer the consequences to make a few people happy.

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wingnut
Gold Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 260
Loc: mid-Michigan
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/01/02 03:06 PM

news stuff I saw in Canada before I moved to the US (4-1/2 years ago) was "current" .... i.e. late 90's .... but I have no verification. I guess I find it easy to believe just because I have such a low opinion of swivel servants. I did go to the BLM mustang/burro "adoption" auction here a month ago and you're right about the paperwork. (But, of course, paperwork only applies to us non-gov't types)

[blue]As usual we all usual suffer the consequences to make a few people happy. [/blue]
IMHO ... these people can't be happy ... they just want to make other people as miserable as they are.

I have to agree with you ... some of it makes no sense at all .... lambs are cute ... but we eat them ... women seem to love veal ... but horses are sacred.

Now, if the people that feel we should not slaughter horses would all shell out for the loss of income and the cost of euthanizing and disposing .... I'd, at least, listen to them ..... but, as long as they want to use my tax dollars for their pet projects .... I can't hear them at all.

it's a shame that common sense isn't
http://www.dahlhausminiatures.com


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Hank
Gold Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 450
Loc: near Wickenburg AZ
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/01/02 03:10 PM

With regard to what you can do I mostly just wanted to know why people were so opposed to it. For the life of me I can't see it. We eat cows, pigs, chickens, rabbits, deer

I once saw an article (perhaps tongue-in-cheek) that postulated the reason is that we do not have a "nickname" for horsemeat. It is simply horsemeat, which brings to mind the animal it came from. Cows are "beef", deer "venison", pigs "pork", chicken "poultry", etc.


Edited by Hank (10/01/02 03:12 PM)

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JoeR
Silver Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 207
Loc: St.Cloud, FL
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/01/02 03:33 PM

Why do the few rule the many? In other words, why can a small group of wackos inflict their will upon us?


Joe R.

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cowboydoc
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 642
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: JoeR]
      10/01/02 04:59 PM

That's pretty much it Joe. You see it all the time. We can't pray in school, can't have up the ten commandments, have to give special rights to minorities, you can eat every other creature of god's but horses are off limits, and on and on. 99% of these types of things don't apply to 99% of the people but that 1% gets their way.

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GrantMO
New Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 6
Loc: KCMO
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/01/02 06:08 PM

Richard,
I think it's to set a precedent. If you outlaw the humane and appropriate slaughter of horses, the next step can be cows, bison, then hogs, chickens, turkeys etc.....

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poorboy
Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 90
Loc: Eastern Kentucky
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/01/02 07:47 PM

I have no problem with horses going to slaughter. I feel the same way about the way people are begining to think. I'm glad to see that I'm not the last one to think that way. Although I still do feel bad when an old cow you have had for 15 years stands and balls at me when they load up for slaughter after going through the ring.

Like Donner said, meats meat.
Patrick

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AndyF
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 312
Loc: Phelps, NY
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/01/02 08:22 PM

We can't pray in school I'm sorry to switch topics, but this comment drives me nuts. Kids can pray in school. What we aren't supposed to have is a government sanctioned group prayer. I'd really like to know if anyone has ever had direct experience where either they or their child was prevented from praying in school when the prayer would not distract anyone else from doing their schoolwork. Schools all over this country especially in the south have bible study groups and other religious organizations.

Regarding the use of horses for meat, I wasn't aware that it was being restricted. If it really is, that's too bad. People should be able to eat what they want or feed their pets what they like.

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Scott_IN_WVa
Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 73
Loc: Planet West Virginia
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: AndyF]
      10/01/02 10:32 PM

You can pray any where any time....

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egon
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 3031
Loc: Nova Scotia,Canada
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/02/02 05:39 AM

Cowboydoc:
You have made some very salient points.
Keep going.
Egon

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EJB
Silver Member

Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 243
Loc: Western, Massachusetts
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: AndyF]
      10/02/02 06:24 AM

>>We can't pray in school I'm sorry to switch topics, but this comment drives me nuts. Kids can pray in school.

No they really can't. Sure they can as long as they don't utter any words outloud and only think the prayer...kind of like saying that freedom of speech is OK as long as you only *think* the speech and don't actually "speak" it.

Why shouldn't freedom of speech logically include praying out loud in school? Why should students be able to say just about anything, promote just about any culture or lifestyle and have that speech protected, but if a student wants to say anything about religion during a speech to the school, have the administration prevent him or her from doing it?....I am not a particularly religous person, but I find it outrageuos when this stuff happens.

If you want to read some recent cases look here:

http://aclj.org/cases_index.asp

THere is all kinds of cases where the schools and the government has attempted to restrict free speech of individuals and/or groups when the speech was religion related...luckily most of these cases where won once they went to court, but the fact that these people even HAD to go to court just to be able to exercise their free speech rights is terrible injustice imo.

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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 642
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: Scott_IN_WVa]
      10/02/02 08:05 AM

No you can't pray anywhere, anytime in school or in public govt. places. You can't say a prayer out loud to start the day in school. A judge can't say a prayer to start a court proceeding. A coach can't even say a prayer anymore in a public school before a game. You can bow your head and say what you want in your head, but you can't say it out loud.

With that said can we please stay on topic here. I really don't want this thread digressing to prayer. If it means that much to you to debate this please start another thread. We're supposed to stay away from religious topics anyway. Sorry I mentioned it in my post.

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AndyF
Gold Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 312
Loc: Phelps, NY
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: EJB]
      10/02/02 10:28 AM

I reviewed your link and am unable to find any cases where a student was prohibited from saying a blessing before a meal or say a short prayer in school. What I see are many cases of religious groups suing to gain access to a public facility to press their message.

Remember, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want your Christian group to have unfettered access to the public schools and other public facilities, don't complain when the same access is provided to a competing Christian or alternate faith group. Let's recognize that one of this country's founding principles is the separation of church and state and that to commingle the two often diminishes both.

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Scott_IN_WVa
Member

Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 73
Loc: Planet West Virginia
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/02/02 10:37 AM

Richard,
You can too pray.....a silent prayer........I know what you mean as a group and praying out loud,it is a shame that it has come to this in public schools,but an individual can always pray silently,but I understand what you were meaning/or getting at.
Have a good afternoon

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RichZ
Veteran Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 558
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/02/02 12:39 PM

Richard, I'd like to disagree with you. First, I'd like to say, that you have been a very good friend to me over the past couple of years, and I've learned a lot from you, about horses, so I mean absolutely no disrespect to someone I consider a very good friend!

It really is not true that good horses don't end up in meat markets. The two horses that I just adopted came from a meat market. They are quarter horses, that were abused and starved. One is a registered quarter horse. A rescue group bought them, and started their rehabilatation, which I am continuing. In the short time I have had them, I have discovered that they are extremely well trained, very intelligent and friendly. I am sure that they will be good trail riders again soon.

When I was at the center that the rescue group runs, I saw many other horses that they rescued. They were all well trained, and ended up in the meat market for a variety of reasons. They all were once valuable riding horses, and will be again.

I don't think that people who are against horse slaughter should be categorized as "wackos". Although it pains me to know any animal is slaughtered for food, I know it is a fact of life. I am not a vegatarian, and I know the beef I just ate was once a cow. But there are some cultural considerations. Most Americans would be revolted by the thought of dogs or cats being consumed (I sure would). Horses fall into a similar category. I know many people consider them working animals, but many (myself included) consider them pets. Both ways of thinking are correct, there is no need to argue that.

I agree that many horses needlessly suffer, but I don't think that the meat market is the answer to the problem. I don't have an answer, but I for one am against horses being slaughtered for the meat market.

To other CBN members, feel free to disagree, there are two sides to every story, but let's avoid name calling. I'm sure many of you agree with me, and many don't. Maybe we can come up with some kind of solution!

Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."

Edited by RichZ (10/02/02 12:58 PM)

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pbenven
Silver Member

Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 198
Loc: QC, Canada
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: RichZ]
      10/02/02 01:43 PM

Rich, I think you and Doc define what a good horse is differently.

I can see both of your sides very well from where I'm standing, and I have to side with him on this one. I look at it this way: say there's 100 animals going to slaughter today and 100 going to future riders. It would make more sense to me to send the ones with problems to slaughter. Save the money you would have spent on vet bills and donate it to the charity of your choice in the name of the lame horses you didn't buy.

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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 642
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: RichZ]
      10/02/02 02:10 PM

Ok here's the answer Rich. You paid what nothing for those horses? Would you pay $1200 for each one of them? If that is the case then why not go to a sale or a private individual and buy a horse that is well bred, is healthy, is something that people would want. Would you have still taken those horses if you knew you were going to have to put thousands of dollars in future vet bills into them and still not have them be able to be ridden or anything? Now say I am the avg. Joe that owns a horse. The horse gets sick or gets lame and I don't have the money to take care of him. I take him to the sale. Now say you aren't at the sale. Nobody buys the horse because he's lame. Now what? Are you going to take every horse in the country and buy them for $1200? No of course not. Now you will probably say you would have bought those two horses anyway but what about the thousands of other horses? What about the owner that has nowhere to go with a horse that has no value to anyone and noone else will even take him? Then the horse goes back home and the owner won't put money into him and sits out back and dies a terrible death. What about that? Where is the place for a sick or crippled horse?

Now let's turn this around even more. Let's say the two horses that you bought were crippled. What then? You did get a few of the horses that go through that are ok. Not great but ok. Now go try and sell those horses. Most places even if they were fit you wouldn't get $500 for them. If you can sell them for more let me know because I can buy them all day at sales that I go to.

You are taking one isolated incident and making that the makeup of the entire problem and that isn't so. In my post I said the MAJORITY of the hroses that go to slaughter are horses that nobody wants or are crippled or sick. That is most certainly the case. Last year 56,000 horses were slaughtered. The rough estimate is that of these maybe 500 were rescued. So we're talking about 1% of those that go to slaughter actually have any value at all.

This is the problem is that someone like yourself steps and says well look what happened with me. Well that's great and you are a great guy and great for what you did. But that does nothing to solve the problem of taking a horse that is sick, crippled, not wanted, etc. There are very few "dog pounds" for horses.

I'm not trying to put you down in any way. Just that what you relate is not the true picture in any sense. At every sale I go to you know who the slaughter buyers are and very rarely do they get the good horses. They don't even want the good horses because they bring too much money. They won't pay very much either.

Feel free to say more please. This is what I wanted to hear is why people think this isn't a good idea. If you can give me an answer as to where the unwanted, crippled, sick, deformed, mean, etc. horses should go then I'm all for it. If you can tell me that it would be better for these horses to be transported thousands of miles to another country for slaughter because we don't want to deal with it then I am all for it.

Now lastly I would like you to be aware of the fact that these horses came from a meat market. I suspect that is not the case here. First of all the only slaughter houses left are in TX. It seems rather strange that someone would buy these horses in TX in the shape you say they were in and send them all the way to the East Coast. I suppose it is possible they were purchased in Canada but again I'm not sure there either. Most of this is being done to advance these people's agenda. They will take horses like this and say they came from this and that but usually it isn't the case.

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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
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Re: Horse slaughter new [re: pbenven]
      10/02/02 02:11 PM

Thank you pbeven I couldn't have said that better!!! You are absolutely right.

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RichZ
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 558
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/02/02 02:40 PM

This is the kind of debate I love, Richard. We're both trying to save horses, from different ends of the spectrum.

Actually, when all was said and done, I paid $1425 for these two horses. They were actually from an auction in central NY, where representatives from meat markets buy horses. I don't know where the meat markets are. They could be Texas, but more likely Canada.

I had to reimburse the rescue group for the auction price, vet bills and transportation. I hope to do this again many times, and plan on getting involved with the rescue group to save more horses. I see no good reason for horses to die, if good homes can be found for them. Although I like to ride, I love horses, and have no problem keeping horses that can never be ridden. Horses can make wonderful companion animals. I spend more time playing and "hanging out" with my horses than I ever will riding them. I know many other people like myself, and plan on working with the rescue group to find homes for many horses. I think we can all agree that that is a good thing!

My vet is coming over Monday to examine these two horses, and if they need hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of vet bills, so be it. They are my animals now, and I'm responsible for them. Whatever they need, they will get, even if I have to put their treatment on a credit card and pay it off slowly. I did that for one of my dogs, and I'd do it for any of my animals.

I intend to get more horses. They will all be obtained through the same rescue group. Buying a helathy horse is fine, and I support people doing that. But if I, and many other people like me can find homes for horses that need them, then we will save a lot of equine lives. That's what I hope to do!

Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."

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cowboydoc
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Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 642
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: RichZ]
      10/02/02 03:07 PM

Ok that's what I suspected Rich. Really there's no way to tell where these horses would have gone then. Very likely someone at the auction could have bought them and done the same thing as you are doing. That's great what you're doing.

Now let's address the real problem. It's not buying horses that are half starved at a regular auction. That's commendable and I won't say anything wrong about that but will pat you on the back. What I'm talking about is what about the crippled horses that are out there? What about the sick horses? What about the horses that are on their last legs becuase of age, etc.? What do we do with those horses? And what about the horses that you can't save on your farm? What happens to them? Guys like yourself that would spend thousands of dollars to help a horse that has no use other than as a pet are VERY few and far between. What do we do with all the horses that you can't take in? A horse isn't like a dog and very few people have the resources to take care of one or secondly even fewer people have a place to put them.

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beenthere
Gold Member

Reged: 09/30/02
Posts: 343
Loc: midwest
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/02/02 03:40 PM

Behind you 100%. I also don't understand how so few can control what is going on.
If they don't like slaughtering horses, then they shouldn't slaughter them. I won't care if they don't.

But I think they should stay out of the face of those who think this is a valid business. Certainly there are
those who don't want to compete at the market place and pay the prices above and beyond what the
slaughter houses will pay.

I didn't realize there were so few slaughter houses for horses. I thought there was a big one in Milwaukee.
Maybe not any more.



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RichZ
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Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 558
Loc: Cambridge, New York in beautiful Washington County, next to Vermont
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: cowboydoc]
      10/03/02 07:38 AM

Thanks, Richard, but I'm not doing it for a pat on the back, I'm doing it because I love horses.

The auction my horses came from is known for selling to meat markets, probably in Canada.

I agree that there are many horses that are suffering and must be put down. That's what euthanasia is for. One of the horses that my rescue group bought at the last auction was a 28 year old mare that had a large tumor on her rear. She had been a family pet all her life. The family decided that instead of paying to have her euthanized and buried, they'd have her sold at the auction! I can't understand how someone could do that to a family pet! The director of the rescue group bought her to bring her home and have her euthanized, so she could die in the dignified manner that she deserved. When the vet came to euthanize her, he said he could remove the tumor, and she could probably have quite a few good years. This horse is a beautiful gray mare, she is friendly smart and very lovable. And she's alive, no thanks to her original family.

I'm sorry Richard, I can't feel that killing horses for meat is right, just as I don't think killing dogs or cats for meat is right. I think laws about the humane treatment of animals is the answer. No animal should be allowed to needlessly suffer, but I don't think the meat market is the answer.

Rich
"What a long strange trip it's been."

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JohnMiller3
Member

Reged: 09/10/02
Posts: 82
Loc: Capital District - Upstate New York
Re: Horse slaughter new [re: RichZ]
      10/03/02 08:12 AM

...dogs or cats for meat...

Hi Richie...

A couple of three or four days ago when I was younger...

My first time in Tijuana, Mexico... us sailors got hungry and ran into a street vendor with a push cart selling "soft shell" tacos... I'm a taco fanatic from the get go... so I got a few of them...

Actually, they tasted pretty good, but I just couldn't put my finger on it... they did taste different...

Later, I was told I was eating "cat & dog" meat... so to make a long story shorter... I agree... I'll stick with "beef" or "chicken" or something "normal"...?

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