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poorboy
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Mad Cow
12/23/03 06:00 PM
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Ok now what. I just spent the past six years raising my own replacement heifers and built the herd from 20 to 50 cows with the last 5 heifers to be bred this spring. I know these cows to their great grandmothers. It's been a constant to get the grass straighten up as the newborns hit the ground. Along with equipment upgraded and ground and fences and facilities in shape. I pretty well have plowed the profits back into it and just as things were turning a profit some holstien in washington state decides to have mad cow, possible positive results. Now what . Richard how do you think this will effect the industry?
Patrick
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Al_Wa
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Pat, Who the heck knows how this will play out. Hope the test is flawed. This could get real ugly for a lot more reasons than public safety.
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poorboy
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: Al_Wa]
12/23/03 07:57 PM
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Al sorry about the reference to "some holstein in washington state" in a negative way I had just heard the news. And to beat it all my wife had said she had just bought some hamburger for her mom. I was in shock. She of all people should have known better than to make a statement like that. But it really showed me how people are going to react. Of course it is the first thing on the news every fifteen minutes. I have felt sorry for the guys up in Canada for the past year. I also feel sorry for the guys whose lives depend on beef prices. My little bunch is just my part time job to supplement my income and keep up the family farm. I also feel sorry for the farmers in the immediate area of impact.
It's amazing what another Kentucky product can do to relieve SSS (sudden stress syndrome)
Patrick
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Al_Wa
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Pat, the local news services in Wa. are going hog wild. "some holstein in washington state" in a negative way No problem here, Ironically this morning we went to our local butcher to stock on our winter beef supply.The Xmas prime rib looked a little fatty so we passed. I heard the news while I was changing the mower blades on the tractor. We jumped in the truck an headed for COSTCO and filled out our winter supply plus some. I don't believe thinking folks will let this get them down.
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: Al_Wa]
12/24/03 07:03 AM
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I am sorry to dissagree but I honestly think this will have a enormous impact on the industry. Several countries have already banned our beef includeing Japan. I believe they are our largest export nation. Beef prices here are soo high this past week I didnt even bother buying any. I was at the store and all the buzz at the check out lines was how no one was going to pay those prices for beef. Whole tenderlins hit the $15 mark as did average cow meat prime rib. Choice cuts and angus will shrink your wallet just looking at the price tags. Its been a LONG time since I have seen such poor quality and high prices at the meat counter. I expect a lot of that is about to change in a hurry. I did like the USDA nonsense though..... " none of the meat is in the food supply" followed by " were still trying to track down the meat " Dave
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egon
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The one Cow diagosed with " Mad Cow in Alberta " created havoc in the Canadian beef industry. We still can't ship beef to many places including the States.
Egon
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EJB
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>>I am sorry to dissagree but I honestly think this will have a enormous impact on the industry.
Same here. Hopefully it will be short-lived panic, but you never know...it could be just one case, or it could be the first of many cases. Time will tell. I suspect a lot of consumers will lighten up on the beef purchases for a while, while others will load up on the sales prices that will likely follow.
Personally I gave up beef almost ten years ago; if/when I get around to raising my own, and I have control over what it eats, then I'll enjoy my first steak in about a decade....
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: EJB]
12/24/03 07:29 AM
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I can NOT live with out STEAK I dont think this will be short lived even if it is one cow which I rather doubt will be the case. Even if it is it will be devistateing on the retail level. Personally I think it was a plot by the Poultry Famers Honestly, I do hope, for every ones sake in the Industry and consumers, that I am wrong. Egon, I honestly thought the import ban on Canadian Beef was lifted fairly quick. I had no idea it was still in effect. Dave
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JoeR
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Does this mean the Atkins diet fad is coming to an end?
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herbenus
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: Al_Wa]
12/24/03 08:34 AM
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Well, I'm a little confused. I would expect prices to come down if there are more cases, as people will slow down on beef purchases. I would wait before stocking up. On the other hand, if you live in Washington, maybe you should worry that a lot of beef won't make it to the local market and therefor prices will go up. And I could see a quarantine restricting shipping of beef across state lines? So what happened in "mad cow" countries before. Did beef prices go up, or down? I'll probably wait to stock up no matter what. The prices right now are too high to be appealing to me.
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: JoeR]
12/24/03 08:51 AM
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If I was in Florida I would be on the Stone Crab diet Dave
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egon
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Your beef prices may be high as there are imports from north of the border.
Egon
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Al_Wa
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Well, I'm a little confused Your well ahead of me, I'm a lot confused. Most of my stocking up was done prior to the news breaking. I have no idea how this will play out. I do know what will happen to the meat in my freezer. A quote from the news this morning "more cattle future traders will be killed than people dying from mad cow disease"
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Stoneheartfarm
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The sad thing is, the cow was unable to move on it's own when it went to the slaughter house. That means a sick cow was sent for slaughter and placed into the food supply. While I realize this is something that is done everyday, the time will come when we will pay for it.
Steve
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Doc et al. You fellows are in for a real eyeopener. Yes the prices have been high and the quality poor. The reason is that after our one cow a thousand miles away caused the border to close between us and by law it can't open for 7 years. This really diminished the supply to your feedlots which caused the price jump. Back here prices have hit giveaway for older cows. I've heard of dairy guys getting $50 for big healthy cows.Hardly pays for trucking. My sheep,also a ruminant also blocked have dropped drasticly too.The laws were in the process of being changed when this came along to allow trade again which a lot of your ranchers were in favor of.I understand that this year has been a real buying spree at equipment dealers there because of all the extra cash that farmers had.Quite the opposite here as some beefmen are real close to bankrupcy due to the low prices. I would suspect that your economy will take a dip in the coming year and you will likely see it register on the NYSE. My advise is don't spend anymore than you need to. fix up whatever you can to make it last a little longer and hope that the international laws bring an end to the hysteria very soon.
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I know we take in a lot of beef from Alberta. But we also take in a lot from Mexico now as well. This might have put some changes up for the moment but I am no fan of NAFDA even if it means higher prices. I have no problems with good Canadian Beef but I wont put up my opinions about free trade with Mexico as they continue to bombard us with illigals. Hey you know we have a terrorist problem so maybee we should give all the illigals drivers licenses .....AHHHHHHHHH ! I read a lenghly legal brief recently that was submitted to INS about the troubles our ranchers are haveing with people deficateing in the water tanks, opening them and letting them run dry, garbadge, fires etc etc etc.
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egon
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Downer cows usually don't make it to the slaughter house. They usually end up in rendering plants and are turned into feed for chickens, dogs, cat's etc. This feed [poultry type ] is not supposed to be given to cattle but it still happens.
The problem lies in what other animals are/were infected and got to the slaughter house and into the human food chain.
Egon
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: egon]
12/24/03 03:40 PM
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A few years back I went on a pheasant shoot. The birds tasted really nasty and didnt fly for beans. I found out later that the ranch owner was feeding his birds that stuff. YEEEEEuuCH ! You sure can taste the difference. Maybee its just me but I can tell in a flash when some one trys to pass off Coho for Scottish smoked Salmon too Now I just chase old Mr Ruffed grouse on my own property. Free Range cedar chickens and you cant beat the price ! Dave
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egon
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There is no doubt that free range animals are a food source with many different benificial qualities that the factory force fed to impending liver failure product supplys.
Egon
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: egon]
12/24/03 05:30 PM
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yes for the most part I do agree. Recently I did a lot of shopping and comparison on free range chickens. There is a huge varity of quality out there. With out the long boreing pros cons of our system the real stand out is Bell and Evans chicken. Two thumbs up ! Good stuff, a little more $$ but well worth it for a nice dinner. I also saw some Bell and Evans free range ducks this season. mmmmmmm Cant wait for that one, Dave
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egon
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Perhaps another item of interest would include manufactured fertilizer. This may hasten plant growth to the point where insuffient trace minerals can be assimilated. This loss will show up in the end product the feed is designated for.
Egon
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mysticokra
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Poorboy, this could be your opportunity to differentiate your product from the feedlot cows. Since "mad cow" comes from bad food, advertise how your cows are "grass fed on pasture", in an open, healthy environment. Begin to solicit local restaurants and people who are willing to pay more for a quality product. The inconvenience will be in the slaughter process, but you could control that by developing a subscription service.
Anybody see whether this impacted the demand for sheep?
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Stoneheartfarm
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031225/ap_on_re_us/mad_cow_farm&cid=519&ncid=716
The U.S. Department of Agriculture (news - web sites) said the cow was slaughtered at Vern's Moses Lake Meat, Inc., in Moses Lake, about 70 miles northeast of Mabton, on Dec. 9, after she became paralyzed, apparently as a result of calving.
The USDA said the slaughtered cow was deboned at Midway Meats in Centralia, and the meat — though no contaminated spinal or brain tissue — was sent to two other plants in the region, identified as Willamette and Interstate Meat.
The are very careful to repeat no brain or spinal tissue made it into the food supply. Apparently, it is alright to ship everything thing else. Bet we see some legislation on this one.
Steve
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cowboydoc
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First of all to clear a few things up. Dave you of all people should know about the quality of beef. Supermarket beef is the worst. The supermarkets buy the poorest beef so that they can make the most profit. The good beef usually goes to the restaurants that ARE good. Try a t-bone at Flying J and one at a good steak restaurant. Alot of difference. It takes alot more money, care, and time to raise good beef.
Next about mad cow disease. 1st you are not at risk by eating the muscle. It's only by eating the brain, spinal cord, and other nervous tissue that a person would become infected. This would only happen by eating processed meat where everything is mixed together and reprocessed into balogna, hot dogs, etc. Most processors don't even use the brain and nervous tissue anymore. Also downed cattle are NOT processed for human consumption. Downed cattle are processed for other non human uses.
The spread of this disease is also extremely easy to control and prevent. It is not like hoof and mouth disease. This will not be an epidemic or outbreak. Likely we are going to see even more controls put into place than now. This is a good thing. The ONLY way to spread it is by eating infected tissue. With cattle this it is very easy to control the mad cow disease. A rancher feeding only his own grown hay and grain will never see mad cow disease. It isn't by the blood or anything else. ONLY by eating infected tissue. This only happens with commercial feed, which granted is the way alot of cattle are fattened. But it is also a product of the market. As profits were trimmed to zero and going bankrupt people look for alternate way to produce beef and not go under.
To me it is extremely sad that the biggest thing I have heard from all of this is how it's good news for the consumer. That now beef will be coming down in price. Just like with Walmart to hell with the producer let's just keep everything cheap for the consumer. Someone mentioned Mexican cattle coming across the border. Well what do you think they feed mexican cattle down there for protein? They sure was heck don't have the hay and good oats and corn we have here.
For the first time in a great long while ranching was profitable this fall. At market prices from before it was barely enough, and most times not enough, to make a living. Now prices finally get where you can make a living and this happens. I was trying to buy a ranch last fall and told the realtor the prices they were asking for the place a person could no way make it even break even. He said heck nobody buys a ranch anymore to make anything, it's just for show. And he's right. Alot of ranchers these days are rich only in the land they have. They can't make it pay. The only way they can make anything is by selling land. The wrath if a man wants to make a good living at it, let's just keep the prices low for the consumer. No high food prices in this country.
What will it do to the market? Well likely it is going to crash. For how long and the damages it will depend greatly on which side the public is going to believe. The spin doctor press or the truth. Unfortunately it has already spiraled downhill. In the short term it's going to have devastating effects on the cattle industry. It already has. How long it will last is another question. It's going to cost some people who haven't sold their cattle this year alot.
The sad part is there are already precautions in place. The disease was caught and the appropriate measures taken. The system worked just like it is supposed to. But you sure don't hear that. All you hear is all the hysteria. Dave the reason they said the food supply has not been contaminated is because the cow in question was never destined for the food supply. LIke I said earlier a downed cow is not put into public consumption.
Our food supply is the safest one in the world. There are more protections and precuations in place than anywhere else on earth.
On a plus side, as already noted here, there are significant markets available. Raising and selling beef on one's own ranch is certainly the way to go. The beef is better. The rancher gets a much better price and can make a good living as opposed to the middleman getting it all. A rancher can then afford to put quality feed into an animal and not have to resort to the products that caused this mess in the first place, most of which were not in this country. But before anyone goes off on it when these animal products were being used for protein there was absolutely nothing that showed that it did cause mad cow disease. As soon as we find out how this one caught it I sure hope that it isn't found out that someone violated those laws to not use animal by-products for feed. If it was it's sad that a few people did that and the effects it will have on the market. Yea poorboy it is a sad day for cattle but hopefully the truth will prevail in this matter.
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Richard, You and I both know that most grocery store meat is cow meat and not quality Angus or steer meat raised for that purpose. krogers and other chains are strictly buying for profit. No mystery there. I only focused on that because thats where the average RETAIL consumer is shopping. I expect the vast majority of quality beef is purchased by the restaurant industry. Now I am a little reluctant to disscuss this with you in a open forum because I do not want others to read too much into our conversations and frankly I think you probably know more about some of this than I do. It would be a great conversation in front of a fire with a couple of cold sodas. While I understand your adversion to consumers wanting to see a lower price I can only say as a educated consumer what I want to see is more consistant priceing on the retail level. This Christmas beef prices were totally out of whack. If gas stations price gouged like that they would get prosecuted. Retailers here wound up cutting their noses off to spite their own faces. Simply put, many did not buy beef. This is not any better for the Cattleman than a price crash. I certainly hope everyone realizes that such losses, while it might mean short term savings on this months grocery bill is NOT a good thing for the future. We could digress into a lot of sub topics on this but I think the long and short of what is Fact is really moot in the average conumers world. Look at 9-11 and the gas lines. Hysteria and panic. We saw the same thing here after the big power outage. People freaked. Most people are just simply so unprepared for life that it is frightening on many levels. Many take the news puffery as gospel. Now I want to be clear that as a consumer I DO want to see the prices of the last month to go down. There is a huge difference between a rancher makeing a living and retailers makeing a killing. I for one do not expect something for nothing and I would never expect or even want to buy a product or service from another N.American that causes them a loss. Now at the Restaurant level my purchaseing is totally different from what most people would imagine. I can speak directly or order on line from major processers and I know not only whether I am buying Morel, Excel, IBP or other processers but select grades such as Angus, Sterling Silver as well. I also have a good idea just what area my meat was processed in. I have a enormous amount of control over quality. The average consumer likely thinks all beef is "choice". I'd be willing to place a friendly side wager Richard that the majority of US consumers have no idea what no roll is. But then meat standards have been VERY lax for about 20 years now. If you look up the fat trim specs for a rib eye and match them to what you get it will make your food cost calculator go into cardiac arrest. In short I pretty much agree with you, BUT, that wont help out in this dilema. I cant speak for any one else but I do not want to consume any flesh from a diseased animal and I dont believe you would choose to feed it to your family either. The real caveat in what you said is that "MOST" processors do not use the spinal cord etc any more. How many here know what Slurry is...? mmmmmmm Think Mcky'Ds BLUCH ! Not in this lifetime, I wont eat that stuff. Not on a train not on a plane. Now I dont really want to dissagree in any sort of sense other than a gentlemans discussion. Thats to say I dont know for sure if I am right . I do know that when we hear , As consumers, the government putting the spin cycle on the beef, where it was headed etc. Many of is are very skeptical. In fact I dont think its much of a exageration to say the majority of us probably think the goverment mouth pieces are not much brighter than Sheep Dip. I expect we both have strong finacial ties to this one Richard. This is not something I would wish on any one. Well Ok I wont Lie. It would not break my heart one tiny little bit if we locked the doors on Mexico. But I am not happy to see this in the US or Canada. As I said earlier, This is one time I really HOPE I am wrong. Many corporations that use purchaseing contracts and SOP manuals dictate Midwestern US Beef ONLY. I really do think in the near future we will see more organic and free range e-tailers. Personaly I think thats a good change and I welcome the choice to buy a healthier higher quality product on the reatail level. Dave
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cowboydoc
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You are pretty much right on with everything you said Dave except the processing. There are very strict guidelines in place in the US. Where we get into trouble is bringing in food from other countries. I didn't get into this before but where the blankety blankety blank stupid disease came from was from importing animal feed. It didn't happen here. In 1997 all animal byproducts were banned. Mostly this was from UK. What we're dealing with now IS NOT A US problem. This problem, like about every other rotten disease and pest, has been imported to this country. That's what makes me so dang mad about it all. Our govt. lets all of this stuff happen and then the rancher or any other business gets screwed by their screw-ups. If we would just worry about things here, produce things here, and not worry about the dang rest of the world we'd be a whole lot better off.
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WOW, now theres a statement I can agree with Richard. 100%. I think our views on processing differ a bit but it wouldnt be much fun to talk if we always agreed I believe that some of that feed comes in south of the border as well. Either way, its bleepin poor enforcement on our part. I remember years ago before the internet and instant satellite news ( yeah a whole 10 years ago ! ) that when traveling in Europe they were BIG TIME anal about going from country to country and what you brought. They used to make you take your shoes off and they werent looking for bombs they were looking for dirt ! I think its also a manifestation in our socity now to get the lowest over head and maximum profit with OUT provideing the best service or product. You know where we both come from Cowboy the winner gets the pot of gold and the girl. Our society seems to have a (sadly) majority contingent that feels they are owed somehow and deserve the riches like the big dog. Its not hard to understand the sub cultures that exist in pockets here and function on the barter system. I saw a news article not so long ago about a town that made its own currency and you bartered your services for currency. Then you could spend your town dollars for any goods/services in that town. We need to get back to being a self sufficient country. I am and have been out raged that for years now China has been our only Prefered trade nation. Here we are the big giant that is going to free the world and our only prefered trade nation pretty much functions on slave labor at ten cents per hour. I'll be very honest when I tell you I fear we are going south in a hand basket and we need to reach down and pull our selves up by the boot straps......SOON !
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cowboydoc
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Well it looks like the cattle producer has been vindicated. The diseased cow came from Canada. This means the US will be able to keep it's mad cow free status. I sure hope that the hysteria doesn't rule out now and common sense does.
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I hope your right but I really have to wonder if the spin cycle has just been kicked up a notch. As a lay person I sure dont understand why that's relevant if the cow has been in the US for two years. I wish the media would do a better job explaining the process and the disease. Dave
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Al_Wa
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Also downed cattle are NOT processed for human consumption. Downed cattle are processed for other non human uses.
Cowboydoc, what am I missing here, the following article indicates the meat from this cow was shipped to several states for human consumption.
" Dr. Kenneth Petersen, an Agriculture Department veterinarian, said investigators have determined that some of the meat from the diseased dairy cow slaughtered Dec. 9 in Washington state went to Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana and Guam. Earlier, officials had said most of the meat went to Washington and Oregon, with lesser amounts to California and Nevada, for distribution to consumers.
"The recalled meat represents essentially zero risk to consumers," said Petersen, of the USDA's food safety agency. He said the parts most likely to carry infection — the brain, spinal cord and lower intestine — were removed before the meat from the infected cow was cut and processed for human consumption."
Complete Article
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fivestring
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: JoeR]
12/29/03 10:31 AM
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"Does this mean the Atkins diet fad is coming to an end?"
No. It means more pork, chicken and fish for them! Watch those prices go up as supply meets demand....
Gary
Bluegrass Music ...
Finger-pickin' good!
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zuiko
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I thought it was interesting that the cow was much older than the owner thought. 6.5 years vs 4.5 years, pretty big difference there.
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cowboydoc
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Re: Mad Cow
[re: Al_Wa]
12/29/03 03:46 PM
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That shouldn't have happened. That cow must not have been down or the packer is in big trouble. If the cow can't get to the kill pen on their own they are not supposed to be processed.
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One things for sure. Someone is sprading the dip a little thick. But over all that's what REALLY kills consumer confidence, when you just get the round and round spin cycle. That's only because it makes being educated about the topic so difficult. I expect in the end that in every Industry no matter what, there are those who skirt or strectch the rules to th n'th degree. There are athletes who play by the rules and those who take steroids and other drugs. The trouble with some Industry is that the regulators are just too ineffective to make a real difference. I dont know for a fact that is the case here but personally I think each day I am a liitle more suprised at just how much dip can be spread on one cracker ! Dave
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kensfarm
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Cowboydoc.. I believe that is what some animal rights groups are currently try to get put into law. But.. the agriculturalists/dairy farmers/etc want the processing of downer cows to continue. Why.. $.. they get paid for an old downer cow that's no longer useful to them.. they would have to pay $ to dispose of them. Here's some info I found on the subject..
USDA officials declined an on-camera interview, but in a written response told CNN: "Federal regulations allow for slaughter any animal that does not pose a health risk to humans. Dead animals with central nervous system conditions and generalized infection are automatically condemned. And by law, diseased meat is prohibited for human consumption."
But a USDA document obtained by CNN states: "Federal inspection regulations clearly provide for the slaughter and processing of diseased animals for human food, and the diseased part can be removed to make a wholesome product."
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Stoneheartfarm
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Reged: 10/10/02
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Loc: West Central Michigan
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I just hope it ends soon. This whole thing has the potential to be very very bad. For both the farmer and the consumer. I've seen what happens when the USDA decides there is a problem in the cattle herds. It is not a pretty sight. While the supply of beef may be plentiful now, it could get pretty scarce for awhile.
Steve
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Its certainly effecting things here in the local markets. I have to admit I am shying away from beef for the moment as well. New years dinner is going to be duck this year. The more the government speaks the less I trust them. The story seems to keep growing. Dave
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Stoneheartfarm
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Reged: 10/10/02
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Loc: West Central Michigan
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Remember the TB herds and the PBB farms?
Steve
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Yeah I would think any one who lived in Michigan very long would remember dozing heards of cattle under. Not a happy day. I hope this is no where near that. I am rapidly loosing hope though. We went from the meat was not in the food chain to we dont know where its at to well we think its in several states at several chain stores. NOT GOOD. Not for any of us. I am still baffled by the significance of the animal comeing from Canada several years ago. Just because they used the banned feed. Big deal. That feed is still prevelant in Mexico and gets over the border pretty darn easily based on what I have read. As far as I know we are still importing Mexican beef and immigrants by the bus load.
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egon
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The feed in question is still produced. The ban applies to feeding it to Ruminantes.
Egon
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egon
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The feed in question is still produced. The ban applies to feeding it to Ruminantes.
Egon
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cowboydoc
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Re: Mad Cow
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