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miss_thenorth
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what are my options?
12/07/07 10:41 AM
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We have three acres of clay, and after a heavy or consistent rainfall, we are covered in mud, with some flooding. Having horses, this is not a good situation. Do I need to tile? Can I dig a ditch? Are there other options?
We are new to country life, and just bought this place a few months ago--not knowing that the land floods.
Any ideas would be helpful!
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jml755
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Depends. See where the water naturally wants to go. If it just wants to sit there because your 3A is flat, maybe regrading will do the trick. Look ahead to where you're planning to move the water and try and get it to the natural drainage course. Hard to tell without standing next to it during and after a good rainfall as to the best and/or least effort option. Can you post pictures?
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Bird
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Anything you do in the way of draining water off your property may affect a neighbor. Be sure you take that into consideration in whatever plan you go with. I know in my county, just a few years ago, they changed the law so that any dirt you move that affects the drainage onto or off your property requires a permit from the county.
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
12/11/07 10:16 AM
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I have taken pics, but now must wait patiently for my dh to post them as I don't know how to get them off the camera.
they will be up soon. thanks!
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Pat
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Hope you are not in a depression (elevation wise or emotionally) because that makes it harder or more expensive to correct. If water runs off yor property now you will probably need to try to encourage that rather that totally terraforming the whole area.
Could you use a pond? If you reshape your land a bit so it drains FIRST to a new pond you dig that will reduce your mud and standing water problem in conditions of moderate rainfall. You will still need to have a safe path for pond overflow for when it fills up and you get more rain. Worst case with a full pond and more rain you will not have more water running off of your property than without the pond and in lesser rain episodes you will not have runoff.
You will need to run any ideas like this past any regulatory agencies with jurisdiction as some places prohibit impounding water or interfering with it in just about any way. If you are allowed to do so and like the idea, dig a deep pond and use the removed dirt for building a dam (if you need a dam which you may not) and use all or part of the excavated dirt to raise the level of the lowest areas of your land.
Observing, taking measurements, and recording locations and notes with considerable water on the ground will be quite useful for determining the actual relative elevations/grades on your property. A good laser transit can do it too for a few hundred $ more.
Hope some of this may prove useful.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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miss_thenorth
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pics
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miss_thenorth
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#2
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miss_thenorth
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#3
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miss_thenorth
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#4
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Pat
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Looks like you won't need a dam to have a pond. You have a large shallow pond now. I'd look into any applicable regulations and go with the pond approach. Excavated soil can be used to slightly raise the worst of the lowest areas. You might need to adjust the grade in a few places to drain the surface to the pond. Placement of the pond should be made with consideration for where the overflow will go. You may be required to run the overflow the same place your excess water goes now after it exceeds your current shallow pond's capacity.
Sorry to sound like a stuck record but I do like the pond solution. There are alternatives such as digging a grid of drainage ditches or hauling in enough soil to raise you up so you don't have standing water after a rain. Essentially you would be making your land have a convex topography rather than concave.
The drainage ditching is about as extensive as pond excavating and makes for an irregular surface not conducive to driving, tractoring, etc. as well as not being particularly attractive. Raising the level of the land is EXPENSIVE and if you aren't careful with your handling of the runoff water you may create a contentious situation with neighbors.
If a pond's overflow goes where your current runoff goes it shouldn't cause a neighbor problem.
How did your land get into this water puddling condition? Did someone have a sod farm and over time lower the level or what?
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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miss_thenorth
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Hi, I have been trying for days to edit and resize an aerial pic of property and I think I finally have it. I'm not so good at the computer stuff...
let's see if it works and then I will give you a run down of what's going on...
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miss_thenorth
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yeah!!! It worked!!!!
ok--the white lines are the fence that we plan on putting up in the spring. the blue is the flooding.
1-(bottom of pic)--ditch (other side of the road)
2-current paddock and area flooded. we will seed that with pasture mix
3-new paddock area
4-small area for meat chickens and pigs
5-pond in another pasture area
6-deep ditch on other side of road
7- drain from our property going under road to ditch
8-old railroad property that is hight than the rest of the land.
the rest of the property, though, does not seem to have any flooding--my thinking is because of the pond, and drain pipe. the pond however, does not have alot of water in it.
Would that pond do? or would you still think of digging another one. And also, if we ran the standing water into the pond--would that water be safe for the horses to drink if they chose to --considering it would contain manure juice (don't know how else to say it?
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jml755
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Hey, good pix and aerial shot. Your property looks like typical farm property here in Michigan - flat. In fact, the paddock looks a lot like the one where we keep our horse. I can tell you what the owner did on her flood-prone riding rings: Hired a bulldozer to re-grade the area to run toward the drainage ditch. Put down 10-12" of gravel, trenched in several rows of drain tile running to the drainage ditch, covered with 12" of sand. Drains real well now.
Regarding your situation:(if it was my place)
- I'd forego the pond idea. Too much loss of land. Plus, not sure if there is a minimum size parcel to put a pond in your community. Have you checked on that? 3A may be too small.
- First, I'd get a transit and take elevations from the bottom of the ditches back to your flood areas, to see what kind of slopes you've got to work with.
- If you have enough drop, I'd run a ditch along the old RR area at the top of the aerial photo to your existing culvert).
- Or, if you want to keep the area flat where the ditch would run, I would bury PVC pipe with an 1/8" slope and not the black plastic drain tile, if you'll be running over it with heavy tractors and it's not buried deep. I've crushed a lot of it by running over it with my tractor and I've replaced it with PVC. If you do this, I'd put in a catch basin every 50-100', so you can clear any blockages and give the silt a place to collect for emptying. You can buy these at Home Depot or Lowes. They're not cheap (around $20-30 depending on size).
- Or, you can combine ditch with buried PVC pipe along that stretch.
- Talk to your county road commission about a culvert across the road to the opposite side ditch. You can get a permit for this. May not be cheap, but for comparison sake, I put in a 42"x20' corrugated steel pipe culvert to cross a county drain that cost me around $1000, with pipe, fill, gravel and permit (here in Michigan)
Just my thoughts from a first glance at the pix. Where are you in SW Ontario? Near Windsor?
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kellenw
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
12/18/07 11:22 PM
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Any chance you could post a relief (topographic) map of your property? This would help me and others to better understand your drainage situation. A pond MAY be your best solution. I'm a pond fan, so my bias sits there. However, with the amount of land you have, it seems you'd have little left over for pasture. Grading to drainage ditches might be a better solution in terms of land use, but in both cases (pond vs. grading to ditches), watershed comes into play. Again a topo map would help with figuring it all out.
Any chance you can post a topo map?
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Pat
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About a picture being worth a thousand words, how about several thousand?
In the words of a populat song, "I can see clearly now..."
Skip the pond unless you really want a small one and then it can be worked in. Build up the level of the worst low places using dirt from any high spots as it is cheaper to use local dirt than to haul in (or pond excavation dirt.) If you can even out your surface grade with a little fall for drainage toward the drainage ditch that runs parallel to the public road you shoud get good results and not bother any neighbors.
Yuu may need to have some gentle swales around the house to prevent any water accumulation near the foundation.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Re: what are my options?
[re: kellenw]
12/19/07 07:52 AM
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I wouldn't worry about a topo map for a 3A parcel. Looking at the pix again, it's pretty flat and I wouldn't characterize it as "flooding". It looks just to be standing water from your property, not coming from other areas. Is any of it coming from the road? Bringing in some fill and regrading to slope of the triangular paddock toward the old RR ROW will let the water accumulate outside of the paddock and flow to the culvert, maybe. Also, if you build up the paddock along the road, you probably can keep any road runoff in the grassy area between the fence and the road.Can you post the dimensions of the sides of the property? The pond you have is pretty small. (Good idea to have one for fire protection.) What are it's dimensions? Also, since you just bought this a few months ago, you haven't seen at least a year of seasonal transitions. Spring (wettest time of year) will tell you a lot about the property hydrology.
I've got an area about 100'x100' that "flooded" similar to what you have. It would get up to a foot deep after several heavy rains. I moved the dirt around and brought in some fill to direct the water to an area where I had put in drain pipe (about 300 ft long) to a creek (actually a County Drain). Did this recently (very dry summer), so I'm anxious to see what it's like come spring.
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
12/19/07 01:33 PM
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Hi, we just moved here from Windsor area (LaSalle). Now we are near Chatham, in a small village called Merlin--about an hour drive to Windsor. I could probably get a topo map, but all it would show you is f-l-a-t- land. And for use of a better descriptive word--standing water is more accurate than flooding. I walked the 3A after it rained last time and none of rest of the land has standing water--wasn't even really soggy. the area where the house is -is elevated--about 2-3 feet higher than the rest of the land. The sump pump was going for about two days, but water near the house is not an issue. I have been and plan on continuing to dump my wheelbarrow loads from cleaning out the stalls --to the flooded area in the paddock. And like someone mentioned, spring will be the time when we are expecting the most amount of standing water. We plan on putting up the rest of the fencing in the spring, and if we have to tile, we would like to do that first, obviously. I just feel bad for my poor horses--they can't even run around--even the area that doesn't ahve water is all muck.
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miss_thenorth
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I can work on getting measurements of the property--don't know off hand.
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kellenw
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Yea, I would say scrap any thoughts of a pond. Tile will probably be the required "fix".
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Cliff_Johns
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Just a thought, but is it possible that there is a hardpan layer below the surface (perhaps a foot or two down) that prevents proper drainage? Perhaps if you had someone come in with a deep chisle plow to break through and break up the striations in the soil, it might drain better.
Cliff
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
01/03/08 07:51 PM
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JML755--basically this is what I think we are going to do. we will do pvc like you stated--We will run to the existing culvert so we dont have to worry about permits or the added expense. This seems logical since this is where the water naturally wants to go.
Since my original post, we have since had more rain and almost the entire paddock, barn and strip going from barn to pond flooded over. The previous RR land is fine. It has since been absorbed/evaporated, but the pond is still overflowed, and the paddock is now mostly ice. The drain culvert is located about 15 ft from pond (at the road)and this is where we will channel the water. We are also planning on digging the existing pond deeper. For the time being--we have a temporary pasture area sectioned off for the horses--poly posts and electric tape, but we need to do something about the land soon--according to the neighbours, in the spring- that same area will be a shallow lake. The house and shop will be fine--but the strip along the RR land will be bad. Right now--we have to wait for a guy to come over and give us an estimate. We will do all we can by ourselves--but i heard running an excavator to get the proper slope can be a tricky thing.....
Thanks all who contributed to this post. your knowledge and insight is invaluable.
Here's to a great 2008!!
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jml755
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Regarding the "trickiness" of the slope (if you do the pipe/ditch yourself): I did experience some undulations in a a ditch I dug with my backhoe. I would have water flowing nicely in some areas, then pooling in other areas. Using PVC pipe helped a lot in getting the water to flow smoothly and quickly, even during small rains. The key is to get your starting and ending elevations nailed down and then make sure you've got enough drop over the run to get at least 1/8" drop per foot. Then, work in 10" (length of pipe) or so sections. Start at the culvert end, working upstream. Using PVC pipe, you can just lay the pipe down and check your slope with a 4' level laid on top. (1/8" slope means there would be a 1/2" gap between the 4' level and the top of the pipe at the downstream end. If not, just re-excavate and adjust the pipe, adding sand under any gaps under the pipe , so it will not sag. Sags will create areas where debris and silt can collect. For the open areas, I used a 10' long 2x4 with the 4' level tie-wrapped to it to check the slope. Working in 10' sections means you can concentrate on getting one section perfect, then forget about as you move upstream.
If you don't have a transit, I'd rent one for a day or a few hours and record the existing elevations. Drive stakes into the ground along your drainage path and mark them, mark fence posts, side of barn, etc. as reference points. Use the bottom of the culvert as "0". This will give you a good idea on what "earth moving" you have to do. Or it will tell you if you are just too low to get water moving off your property. Does the water flow quickly through the culvert? What is it like on the other side of the road?
Dumping the excavated material from your pond deepening in your farthest pasture will also help. Is that your plan?
I checked my property last week and the area that am draining with PVC pipe was flooded, covering the mouth of the pipe. Popped open the 1st catch basin and small twigs/leaves had caught on the inlet lip of the catch basin causing a blockage. I cleared that and the water gushed through. I'm going to have to insall a mesh trap of some kind at the pipe inlet to keep the bigger stuff out. Also, a lot of silt was trapped in the bottom of the catch basin (i.e. it was doing its job).
Good luck with your project.
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Pat
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
01/08/08 09:51 AM
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A solution that does not require long runs of drain pipe will give better long term satisfaction. Given the small area involved, if it were mine I'd rearrange the surface elevations to promote drainage toward the pond and roadside ditch.
Drain pipes tend to clog. Weirs or "filters" at the upstream end of drain pipes, installed to prevent debris from entering the pipe do protect the pipe but themselves become easily clogged. I don't like having to go out in the rain and or mud to to clean out debris to keep the pipes flowing.
A solution without drain pipes is more trouble and maint free.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Re: what are my options?
[re: Pat]
01/08/08 12:05 PM
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Pat,
I agree. That's why I used a combination of pipe/ditch. Areas that I did not want to give up the surface area to a ditch, I ran the flow underneath. Simpler is better (to paraphrase Albert E.)
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Pat
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
01/08/08 03:06 PM
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jml, True, the vast majority of the time. I have the down spouts from the front of the house plumbed into 4 inch PVC underground and go to 6 inch were they merge except for 2 of the down spouts. Both are a PITA, especially the one which inundates the sidewalk and keeps a green growth going all the time on the cement. It ended up this way because coordination was lost between the concrete and downspout guys and no pipe was placed under the sidewalk. Now I get to use a diamond saw to cut a swath through the sidewalk, bury a pipe and then dig up the burried drain line to conect this new pipe into it.
All this would have been trivial if done in the original work but now is a royal pain. You can't use slip fit connections because you can't move the PVC pipe that is buried. I have to use the neoprene rubber goodies with the stainless hose clamps.
The good news is that I get few leaves and other debris on the roof so I don't have a clogging problem in the drain pipe run which leads off to drain to daylight at a creek bank. The only problem I had was after a lot of rain a 2 ton truck sunk in the mud where they shouldn't have even been and crushed my 6 inch drain pipe with their skinny front tires. I had to use the neoprene goodies then also. I added more dirt to protect the pipe better and put a landscaping rock in the way to discourage erroneous impromptu maneuvers.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options?
[re: Pat]
01/11/08 08:23 AM
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I would tend to agree with you on this one ,but......both ditches are on the other side of the minicipal roads... unless you are thinking about digging a ditch on our side of the property along the roads to meet up with the culvert onthe north corner?
BTW, we had a dumping of rain a few nights ago--about two of the three acres were covered in water. Two girlfriends came over and we got out there with shovels and started digging trenches to the culvert. this moved ALOT of water.
Spring hasn't even come yet--so I think we might have to move he horses temporaarily then until this mess is cleaned up. With it being this wet--we probably won't be able to get any machinery in there for a while...
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Pat
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Hmmm, in the picture it looked like there was a concavity parallel to the road on your side of the road. Does it drain? If it does, drain our water to it.
Of course, life is what happens while you are making other plans. I sure don't think I would wait for spring to at least get some temporary ditches in place to reduce the problem.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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miss_thenorth,
Yeah, we had a lot of rain here too (Detroit area) and I was wondering how your place was holding up. Plus, 8"-10" of snow followed by 50+F deg weather didn't help. You mention that you moved a lot of water by digging trenches. That should give you a pretty good idea of what you need to do.
To repeat an earlier question: Does the water move quickly once it hits your side of the culvert crossing the road on your northeast corner? No matter what you do with trenches/ditches/pipes, the control elevation will be at that culvert. Have you taken any measurements?
Yes, I would keep the ditches to the perimeter of your property to avoid losing "usable" area. Whether one would help on the south and east side (along the roads) is debatable. You might not have enough drop to move the water (especially the south side) and they may just end up being "retention" areas, think of a long skinny pond that loses water only to evaporation, saturation. However, that may be an acceptable solution to you; just to get the water off of your "usable" area.
Concerning the horses, a good mud puddle never stopped my horse from rolling.  Got to be careful about sucking off a shoe though (if they're shod) We're fortunate that the place where we board our horse has a couple of indoor arenas, so mddy days don't totally prevent exercise. I've put a small indoor arena (60x120 or so) in our plans for our retirement place.
Speaking of horses, ours got a puncture wound on his leg last week. (Second time this has happened) Wife has been giving him antibiotics, cleaning it out. She called the vet yesterday, more antibiotics ($$) Checked his stall for nails, need to walk the turnout paddock as well.
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
01/11/08 12:40 PM
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Ah yes--- the measurements....and the survey says!!! ...
the road where the culvert is ( that our dirveways go to)440.93 +42.62 for the RR land.
Other road--481.77 +46.56 for the RR land.
Does that help? right now there's someone out doing locates around the whole perimeter.
We didn't have a whole lot of snow--just rain.
The water was everywhere--but it was not reaching the culvert--that is where my GF's and I dug the trenches--from the overflowed pond to the catchbasin of the culvert. Once that was done--most of the water drained within a couple of hours. there is stil standing water in the paddock, at the barn-going up about 10-15 feet towards the house, and then a huge area where thepond is still overflowed. the water is not moving much anymore. I will have to get back out there with the shovel to connect the low lying areas together--but my back hurts!!-- and the wind is unbelievable.
the horses don't have shoes, and their feet still look good. The PH perch goes out and trods through the muck and water, but the morgan thoroughbred is liking the barn alot lately, which just means more shovelling for me--the stall this time.
I hope your horse recovers well. Nothing worse than a lame horse. Its surprising what they can get into. Right now--we are just keeping a close eye on their hooves/legs to make sure they don't get anything (thrush, frog rot etc) from being in wet muck so much.
As I am out there looking at things, I'm wondering if it might not be better to dig ditches around the perimeter, going under the driveways-to the culvert. And then dig trenches from the paddock to the ditch. Or like you said it might just stand there, but at least it willl be offf of the area we need to use. I will run it by dh when he wakes up (night shift)
Again, thanks alot for all your help.
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jml755
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
01/11/08 01:18 PM
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miss_thenorth,
OK, if you want water to move toward the culvert from approximately 480' away (given your dimensions) , a 1/8" slope per foot would means you'll be 60" higher at the beginning of the trench/pipe/ditch. Hard to tell from the pix if you've got that kind of drop to work with. A 1/16" slope would be a 30" differential in height.
Whatever you decide to do, I'd take plenty of pictures NOW (or whenever it floods again) with a sketch and dimensions of your problem areas. That way, when it's nice and dry and sunny and much more amenable to moving dirt, laying pipe, etc. you'll have some reference of the areas needing attention.
I can't stress enough how handy it will be to know the elevations of areas on your property relative to the culvert bottom in forming any kind of permanent solution. Good luck and keep posting with updates. Your solution may end up helping one of us.
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
01/11/08 01:33 PM
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How would I get elevations--topo maps? I looked online, but no go...library maybe?
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jml755
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Topo maps won't help you here. You need to take the measurements yourself, or have someone who knows how to do it. It really isn't that hard. (See the earlier post about renting/buying a transit).
There are numerous ways to take elevations and compute grades. A very simple way is you can use a clear length of tubing/hose (open at both ends) and fill it with water. The water level will be the same at both ends. Measure water line to ground and you've got the difference in elevation over that length. (eg, if the difference in the water line to ground measurement was 3 1/8" over a 25 ft length, you would have a 1/8" slope) You can buy these kits fairly cheaply. If you used the "tubing method" every 25' it would take about 20 measurements to determine the grade from one end of your property line to the other.
This will tell you if it's even possible to move the water from one end of your property to the other. Remember, water won't move uphill, at least due to gravity, it won't.
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options?
[re: jml755]
01/11/08 02:42 PM
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Oh.... DH's friend has a transit that we will getting but not for about a week....
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Pat
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A dead simple approach is to use a "water level." You use any number of garden hoses to get the length you want and put clear tubing at the ends. You can drive stakes in the ground and hold one end of the clear end on the hose so the water level in the tubing is at the height of the stake. Mark it with a pencil. Let whoever is holding the other end next to another stake mark it at the same time. Since water seeks its own level the marks on the states are the same elevation to within a pencil lines width if you are careful. You can then take your end to your friend's stake and the friend can go to the next stake. You can use as many stakes as you like. The work goes fast and is pretty simple. Just drive in a bunch of stakes. (I like to use stakes at least 4 ft long driven into the ground at least a foot as it saves bending or having to sit on the ground.)
You can buy "kits" which include a couple pieces of clear tubing, one with male hose fitting and one with female to attach to both ends of a hose or you can buy all the parts to DIY for under $5 US. It is simple easy cheap and quite accurate. For best results both operators have to hold their hose ends still so the oscillation of the water dies down to a reasonable level. You do not have to wait for the water to stop oscillating, just note the max and min heights of the water as it oscillates. The final reading will be in the middle if both operators are holding their ends steady.
Once you have a mark on all your stakes you can easily measure the distance from each mark to the dirt and there you have it, an accurate determination of the variations in elevation of your land. No fancy survey instruments or special skills needed, it is cheap and pretty fast with two people. I have done it by myself but it takes 4-5 times as long as with two people. Once you get the hang of it you should be able to do a stake every minute or two.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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jml755
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Re: what are my options?
[re: Pat]
01/14/08 08:51 AM
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miss_thenorth,
to expound on my and Pat's comments on the water level, I've done it by myself easily by using "chip-clip" spring clamps to hold the tubing to the stake. Just have to move 1 end of the tube every measurement. (trailing end in the series) Never had a problem with oscillation. Plus, doing it myself saves the inevitable queries from the helper (usually my wife or one of my daughters) on typical home jobs: "Are we done yet? Can I go now?" which leads to me rushing the job and wondering if I didn't make a mistake.
ps. Wife went out and found numerous nails sticking out of the fencing surrounding the turnout paddock. Like a trooper, she waded through the muck with a hammer and pulled or pounded in any possible offenders. Don't know if she got the one that "nailed" our horse.
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jml755
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Re: what are my options? Spring update???
[re: miss_thenorth]
05/07/08 09:12 AM
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missthenorth,
Just curious how your property looks this Spring. We've had wetter Springs, so don't know if this one would show you a "worst-case" scenario for your water management problem. Any change or update on your plans to move the water to the culvert better?
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miss_thenorth
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Re: what are my options? Spring update???
[re: jml755]
05/07/08 10:08 AM
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Good morning! Funny you should bring this up now, b/c at this moment, the 'guys' are here doing the tile work. They have done the majority of it and are now finishing up where the exisitng paddock area is now.
We ran one tile from the culvert, along-side the pond, and barn, and now they are going to the SW corner of the paddock. There were existing old tile that they attached to the new main one. You're right in saying it wasn't the wettest of springs we've had, and all I can say to that is 'Thank God'. For most part of the end of the winter, the whole stretch along where the RR tracks used to be, all the way to the paddock was covered in water./ice. the horses were fine while the ground was frozen, we had an area for them to go in but once it started melting, the barn was a standing island, and thankfully the horse stalls were elevated a bit, so -they- stayed relatively dry. My dh borrowed a pump from work, and we pumped out ALOT of water, so that the horses' area and barn were not flooded. All is good now, the tiling will be done today.
We have also been putting up horse fence, and I am getting ready to put my garden in.
We are busy, but we are loving it out here. I will update with pics soon.
TTYL
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eccentricfarmer
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Re: what are my options? Spring update???
[re: miss_thenorth]
05/10/08 04:27 PM
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2 cents, so take it for what it is worth.
Have about 5 acre separated pasture. Every year for the last 5 have watched it fill with small pond (same as yours). When was allowed to examine in (as new farm manager) found the cattle and such had created a hard pan layer on the surface so each time it rained the water drained to the lowest area and ponded up. Low and behold, disced the heck out of it. Monsoon, no pond, all the water was now draining into the ground and being held by the years of manure put on it. The top foot of soil is sandy loam below that is sand and probably gravel even deeper. Your pic shows where the horses (?) walked and spent time in the paddock (IMHO). The drive is just a low spot that needs some gravel fill. Maybe the hardpan is lower and then you would need a subsoiler and there are good and bad about them including messing with the tilth of the soil and maybe pushing the hardpan just that much deeper.
This is only IMHO. But water is getting to be more and more of an issue so i would really try to preserve the resources you have and not just drain them away. But that is the fun of having your own place and making the decisions.
Kind of feel like a lamp in the dark but not meant to be disrespectful of any of the other posters or you.
No fun, change the rules!!!
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