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Pat
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...and payday is on Friday.
02/05/03 10:37 AM
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Engineering is a series of tradeoffs. Housebuilding is no exception. I ended up choosing to have a bathroom and a second kitchen in the basement although with other considerations it meant that the waste effluent will have to go uphill to the leach field. To avoid having to use a "macerator" type pump that grinds and pumps solids (poor MTBF, i.e. trouble prone) we are placing a conventional septic tank downslope of the walkout basement but its output will not go directly to a leach field it will be pumped uphill by a liquid handling pump to the level of the septic tank serving the ground floor and upstairs.
Anyone out there have experience in systems that have to do things like this? Do you plumb the output of the pump to a "T" at the output of the "main tank?" If it weren't for a "stiring up the solids" issue, I'd be leaning toward sending the pump output to the main tank. My previous reading on septic systems gave me the impression that you wanted the last chamber in the system to be fairly undisturbed and stay full with its over flow being nearly clear water, solids having settled out. Pumping a batch up from the lower tank would certainly stirr things up.
Perhaps I should consider one extra chamber in the lower tank. This would fill from natural gravity flow from what is ordinarily the last chamber and not contain anything that wouldn't have ordinarily gone to the leach field. Then it could be pumped as a batch to the leach field without puting anything in the leach fiield that it wouldn't have already had. (some of this started sounding like a "horse with no name")
Sure don't wan't to cause stuff to go to the leach field that it shouldn't get. I would like to have enough reserve capacity in the lower tank such that it would not "back up" during power outages of several hours or maybe a couple days if that is practical. In an extended outage I will, of course, fire up a generator to "recharge" the frige and freezer, get weather reports on sat TV, and such so electricity to run the pump will be available.
Ideas?
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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wingnut
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/05/03 12:29 PM
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The setup that I inherited in Alberta either meant that there were no standards ... or nobody worried about the standards.
Basically, I had a very large septic tank (2 chamber, with the intake into the smaller chamber. The solids ... being solid, stayed at the bottom of the first chamber and gave the bacteria something to occupy their time with. The liquid spilled over into the large second chamber. Periodically, determined by a float switch, the effluent pump would come on and pump that second chamber out. (The system did work very well, never froze up even at -40 ... and I only had it pumped out twice in 8 years and I kept the cost down by having him deposit the "nightsoil" in an unused area of the back 40.)
The reason I mentioned "standards" is that the place the effluent went was a swampy area about 1000 feet from the house. Would that qualify as a leach field>
I never bothered "fixing" the system ... other than some pump maintenance ... since there was only odor when the pump was running and only noticeable if you were standing beside the outlet (in the swampy area - so not very likely).
Anyway ... the moral of the story is that there's no reason that the hose couldn't have gone to another tank at a higher elevation ... the sewage pump was certainly more than strong enough.
pete
it's a shame that common sense isn't
http://www.dahlhausminiatures.com
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WVBill
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/05/03 02:18 PM
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In reply to:
To avoid having to use a "macerator" type pump that grinds and pumps solids (poor MTBF, i.e. trouble prone)
We have a bathroom in our basement that has a "hung sewer" and an effluent pump up to our septic system. Not a single problem in 4 1/2 years (XX Cross fingers XX).
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Chillimau
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/05/03 03:02 PM
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Don't know the answer but here is a link to it. Okla DEQ Individual and small septic rules (According to OK Law anyway)I would think the section "lift stations" would answer your question.
Gary
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: wingnut]
02/05/03 03:11 PM
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Hey Pete, I thought the "good ole boys" 'round here were casual in their engineering... 50 gal oil drum with holes punched in it with a pick axe burried in (preferably) sandy soil as the combination septic tank/leach tank. When it quits working they burry another one and switch the connections. Just leave the old one burried. WOW!
Thanks for the reassurance. I want a three chambered tank or a two chambered tank with an additional tank on its output to be sure I'm not pumpiing any solids into the leach field. Ordinarily the last chamber gently and slowly overflows to the leach field, leaving any solids (some float) in the tank. Pumpin will stir the , uh err ahh... stuff so I don't want the tank with the pump to have any solids floating or otherwise. I need to remember that the second chamber should be tapped into down a ways from the top to avoid floating stuff as well as the solids that sink. I think it will be best to pump the third/last tank/chamber directly to the leach field so as to not homogenize the contents of the output chamber of the "main" septic system up the hill. This implies a surge capacity for the leach field in excess of the quantity to be pumped in a batch. Sounds like a good argument for the "Infiltrator" system instead of traditional perf pipe and gravel or shredded tires in the leach field.
Thanks again for the sanity check on the design ideas.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: WVBill]
02/05/03 03:21 PM
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WVBill, Could you give me a little more detail on your system? And what is a hung sewar? Sounds like a plumbing problem rather than a system description.
I read the adds and got info mailed to me from the folks who advertise the toilets that flush uphill. Big technological surprise... a small holding tank with a level switch to operate a grinder pump. Not a bad idea B U T if the power goes out it won't take long to come to a halt. I hope to have enough capacity to wait out a decent outage. The longest outage here in last 5 years was 3 days. Outages are frequent but virtually always less than 24 hours. I figure I can walk out to the shop (actually a part of the house) where the emergency generator will be located and give it a yank if the outage lasts more than a few hours and interferes with my entertainment, eating, or use of the basement facilities.
My advisors and my limited experience (clorinator macerators in marine heads) tells me that pumps for grinding and pumping solids have a higher failure rate than pumps for liquids. Even if they lasted as well, which could be the case if you pay enough, they are more expensive to buy and maintain. Still, if the cost were the same and MTBF were the same, I'd want the larger tank system I am planning due to the relatively unreliable nature of our rural coop power grid.
I assume your pump pumps into the first chamber as if the stuff got there by the normal route?
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (02/05/03 03:27 PM)
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Chillimau]
02/05/03 04:00 PM
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Gary, Thanks. I will read that stuff as soon as I can connect through that link. It keeps refusing me but I'll find a way.
Thanks again,
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: wingnut]
02/05/03 07:55 PM
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Pete:
About 55 years ago when my Father installed a septic system on the farm an inspector was sent out to okay the system.
Egon
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egon
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/05/03 08:03 PM
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Pat:
As per Pete's post.
Pump out septic tanks are not uncommon. They have a float activated pump and go directly to the mound or the leach field.
This pump is quaranteed to fail on a long weeked when the weather is less than desirable.
You could pump into the first chamber of the upper tank or direct into the field system. Should not make any diference. If going to the leach field make sure the upper tank doesnt syphon back to the lower tank.
Egon
Edited by egon (02/05/03 08:10 PM)
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wingnut
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: egon]
02/06/03 08:47 AM
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Egon .... I'd like to meet the inspector that approved the setup I had .... and find out where he gets booze that good!
And I'll have to agree on the pump failure .... after the first one, I made sure that I had a spare on hand.
Pat, I forgot to mention what happens when the scenario Egon describes comes about. In the middle of winter, when it's -40 and there's a pretty good blizzard going, the float switch doesn't ... float or switch ... and eventually you find out about it ... when you go down to the basement and step into what being coming BACK from the septic tank .... oh joy!
And you get to go outside and shovel off the lid of the tank, and grab the rope (remember to wear industrial strength, elbow length rubber gloves) and pull and pull and pull ... and when you get it out, you check to see whether it's the switch (I went through 4 in 8 years) or the pump (I replaced one but discovered afterwards it was the switch after all ... so I had a spare). Then you need to put the pump and switch back down the tank, make sure it's running, and ... when the level is low enough ... go downstairs with the shop vac and suck ... suck ... suck .... did I mention it SUCKS!
After the second time (I do not learn quick and I'm awful lazy), I installed 2 lights on the post beside the tank (it was there to mount and protect the electrical outlet for pump power). One light was connected to an connector I fastened in between the power and pump switch cables ... so if the pump was drawing power, the light was on. This made sure I was aware that the pump was running too long (it got clogged several times ...and the float switch got hung up more than a few times). The other light was connected to a level switch, as was a buzzer in the house.
Ah, memories.
pete
it's a shame that common sense isn't
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: egon]
02/06/03 08:52 AM
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Egon, I got the basic idea... My concern is over a small part of the system's hookup and function. If you are pumping out the final chamber of a septic tank and the exit pipe is located properly, the pumping action shouldn't stir the tank much, hence few solids or floating foamy junk should be drawn out and deposited in the leach system.
Same thing for my "lower" tank probably but a third chamber would make me more comfortable. If the lower tank were pumped into the outlet chamber of the upper tank I am concerned that it would stir the tank quite a bit and cause floating debris and settled solids to get mixed into the effluent on its way to leachdom. That is why I think I would like to pump the lower tank's third chamber directly to the leach field.
Yes, I am aware of back siphon action. My next door (hatch?) neighbor got me out of bed one morning at 0500 because his boat was sinking (we both lived on our sailboats next to each other in adjacent slips.) His boat was only a few months old and I had critiqued his plumbing when he gave me "THE TOUR" when first bringing the boat into the Marina. I was a volunteer vessel examiner with the U.S. Coast Guard Aux unit in San Diego for 10 years. I pointed out that his galley sink drain was Y'd together with his automatic bildge pump outlet and put to the same through hull penetration without a seacock. He assured me that the open hole at the bottom of the sink would break any syphon action.
Well, within just a few months his automatic bildge pump failed due to corrosion on the terminal strip (poorly located) so he used the manual override each evening and pumped til the pump cavitated (caught air) then switched it off and went to bed. On this occasion his wife had left the sink strainer in place with some vegetable peelings in it and they shut off the air flow. When he pumped the bilge out he charged the syphon loop. When he shut the pump off, the ocean began syphoning into his bilge. At 0500 when his wife's feet hit the floor she was standing in water and some of the floorboards were awash. (Note the floor boards are at least 6 ft above the bottom of the engine space and bottom of the bildge)
I kept an emergency pump with a 20 ft power cord and large aligator clips for connecting directly to a battery and a 15 ft discharge hose (about 1 1/4 or so ID). It was a Rule brand 1500 gal/hr unit. Luckily, his batts were not submerged, just his shiny new diesel engine. He was grateful for the assistance. It is said that the best bilge pump is a scared man with a bucket... but for only a little while.
Long reply but thought you might be entertained by syphon story. Many boats have also been in danger of sinking at anchor or tied to the dock because of anti-syphon devices on marine heads. They are a spring loaded valve that is supposed to open up and introduce air into an inverted "U" shaped half loop. the delicate spring gets fouled with "stuff" being pumped out and the rest is predictable.
I would think that a riser pipe from a "T" connection coming from the lower tank to the output line of the upper tank would vent to the surface. Would put a 180 degree turn in it so it would not collect debris or rain. That vent should prevent any syphon action.
I'm open for suggestions if you know of a better or easier way.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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WVBill
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/06/03 02:13 PM
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Pat:
In my set up, I have a basement bathroom (shower, sink, toilet). These drain into a sump tank buried in the basement slab. It is about three feet deep and 20" in diameter and has a top that seals it.
In the sump tank sits my sewage effluent (grinder) pump. The pump has a float switch that cycles it on and off. Through the sealed top is a vent (connected to the vent system upstairs) and a 2" PVC pipe from the output of the effluent pump. There is a one-way check valve right at the top of the tank. From the check valve the 2" drain pipe goes up to the ceiling of the basement where it "Y's" into the 4" drain going to the first floor plumbing. This 4" drain exits the basement and into the septic system by gravity.
The float switch cycles the effluent pump about every 6 gallons so it takes about 4 toilet flushes before it cycles.
It's been in there for 4 1/2 years with no problems. I DO have a water sensor alarm sitting on the top of the sealed lid in case, for some reason the pump fails at least we'll know to stop using the basement bath very quickly.
The basement bath is not our primary bathroom so we would not use it in the event of a power failure.
I do not recall what kind of effluent pump we installed and I don't think I want to open that sucker up to look for you.  
I was told that a "hung sewer" is one in which the city sewer or your septic tank is above the lowest point of your house's plumbing drain, requiring a pump up to that level.
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egon
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/06/03 03:49 PM
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Pat:
The salt water syphon is interesting. I got one of my own from work but couldn't describe it adequately and it is also a sore point as the golden haired boys couldn't figure it out. As proper repairs I requested were not done and the fixes I put in place were always removed soon as I got off shift I just let it ride. The cooling towers had some very wildly fluxuateing chemical readings on my days off and a commitee to look into it was even formed.
The tee is what I'd do. I'd also pump into the first chamber of the upper septic tank.
Sure wish payday was on Friday.
Egon
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egon
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: wingnut]
02/06/03 03:55 PM
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Pete:
Seeing as a plumber was involved the system had to be reported as per the fellows licence. No plumber, no report, no inspector.
Egon
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: WVBill]
02/07/03 09:58 AM
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Hey Wild Bill, what does the V stand for? Just kidding! Sounds like you have a good straight forward system. As I have a guest bedroom in the walkout basement (the upstairs guest bedrooms are not safe rooms) I would like to have more reserve capacity in case of power outages. My builder suggested a smaller but standard septic tank downhill a bit from the walkout to provide good reserve capacity and to only have to pump liquids (cheaper and a bit more reliable) I imagine in years to come I will get a twofer at pumpout time. Any reason I sohouldn't install a pumpout pipe with plug above surface? Wouldn't have to dig down to lid and the pipe could be disguised/hidden.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: egon]
02/07/03 10:03 AM
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Egon, You are lucky the committee didn't decide that since the problem only occurred on your days off to not give you any days off---PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
I know I am sounding, perhaps, uncharacteristically timid BUT I don't want to pump into the first chamber of the upper tank as I am afraid it will stir it up too much and force solids and or floating scum into the next chamber. That is one of my main concerns in pumping. I am concerned that the stiring action will cause sollids to go where no solids are supposed to go and ultimately plug the leach field. That is why I wanted to consider a third chamber for lower tank and pumping that to the leach field.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/07/03 01:55 PM
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Pat:
As you well know committee's do not make decisions, they only recomend another branch off committtee to report to the first one and on and on it goes.
I'd stayed there 24 hours a day as overtime pay is real good pay. There were two times I turned down overtime in 25 years.
Smaller pump volume may also alleviate your fears. Two or three people on a setic system should not overstress it. Exspecially as you have probably larger than required septic tanks to began with.
Egon
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: egon]
02/07/03 07:50 PM
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Egon, The smaller pump is a darned good idea, cheaper to buy, easier to start with a small generator supplying the power, and it helps with one of my (repeatedly mentioned) concerns of stiring stuff up and getting solids and scum into the leach field.
Thanks for mentioning that. I'd like to think I would have thought of that before a pump was purchased and installed but maybe not.
About your previous offer (declined) to introduce me to winter... We got an inch of snow yesterday but it is 90% gone now. It is possible we will get more before spring sets in.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/08/03 06:45 AM
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Pat:
Just another though. If you install a second septic or holding tank downstream of the bottom tank why not relocate it to downstream of the top tank as this is the one that will see the most service.
Pump to big install a restrictor plate to reduce output. Shouldn't hurt a rotary or sludge type pump. A discharge bypass back to tank could also be used but would create turbulence in the tank.
Got about 10 inches of nice snow last night.
Egon
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/11/03 08:11 PM
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I just want to offer some advice about the pump if you go this route...
We replaced our leach field and ended up with a septic tank flowing to a 500 gallon pump tank and then up to the field. The contractor installed a 1 hp sump pump. Unfortunately, I didn't know enough to check it out. It failed the first winter, when the ground froze 3.5 feet deep. It was fun watching him trying to break thru that with the excavator to find the frozen pipe.
Anyway, a friend of mine is a pump expert. He lined me up on a 2.5 inch sewage pump (will pump a 2.5" rock) as the replacement. It wasn't cheap, but it has been flawless for 13 years.
Spend the money on the right pump. It is worth it! 
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: rozett]
02/12/03 07:19 AM
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ROZETT, Thanks for the info. Your testamonial makes a powerful sell for doing it right the first time and not cutting corners. My builder has recommended that we install a smaller but regular multi-chambered septic tank downhill from the walkout basement and pump the effluent (liquid only, no solids) uphill to the leach field or main septic tank. Avoiding the cost/maint problems of a "grinder" pump was one of the criteria. Also, since our area is subject to fairly frequent and sometimes extended power outages, it is good to have the basement drains gravity operated and have fair reserve capacity in the "lower" tank.
Thre are probably lots of ways to handle this situation although I can't think of a better one just now. Someone will probably suggest a real good clever trouble free innexpensive system, right after we "plant" the lower tank and plumb it up.
By the way... is there anyone out there who didn't know that our word "plumb", whether refering to plumbing/pipes or plumb as verticaly alligned with gravity as with a Plumb bob, stems from the Latin word plumbum which translates as lead, the metal, chemical symbol Pb. Well, it's true... a lead pipe cinch, thanks to the Roman's lead lined water conduits AKA pipes.
OK, I'm back... Thanks again for the advice. I will ensure we don't go too cheap with our liquid pump and regret it. As far as the freezing considerations... Our code depth for frostline is 18 inches but I pretty much go for a minimum of 24 because I am sort of a belt AND suspenders kinda engineer.
Thanks again,
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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ScottAR
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: Pat]
02/15/03 01:28 AM
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Sounds great. One tip: Be sure someone fills the septic tank(s) with water after installation. If it rains and the tank is empty, they tend to get buoyant and shoot out of the ground. You probably know this already but I thought I'd pass it along.
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Pat
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Re: ...and payday is on Friday.
[re: ScottAR]
02/15/03 10:53 AM
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Scott, Thanks for the warning. This isn't my first time out, septic wise, but it could have been and your thoughtfullness could have averted a disaster. I would rather be warned when not needed than to not be warned because someone overestimated my knowledge with disastrous results.
You'd think it was obvious, huh? Well, on my first install I didn't think of it but luckily the installer did. They disassembled my well house to get access to the well so they could power it up and fill the new tank out of concern for the dammage if it should rain.
This was one of "those" deals. I had interviewed 3 installers and made my selection. I told him he was selected but not to start till I got back from a cross country trip. Well, when I returned the job was almost done. The septic tank was in and covered (and filled...see comment above). There was a pile of ground up tires (gravel substitute) that caught my eye whe I drove up. At first I thought they were just pre-staging some materials but NO! They did the whole job, had a doubt about their laser level and cancelled the inspector. They dug all the lateral lines up and dug new ones in between thte originals and used more "gravel substitute" and relayed the lines. As a resullt I got to see the (second) installation and inspection. It turned out that the laser was OK and the extra work wasn't actually required. They brought two lasers on this last day.
There was no complaining about their extra time and materials. They said it was their problem and it was just a part of being in business. Botom line is that thte extra trenches with "gravel substitute" between the used trenches, increases capacity to almost double what was intended, a free bonus for me. In addition, the lead man gave me several good landscaping/terraforming recommendatons and came out to check on my progress tractoring them into reality. That is CUSTOMER FRIENDLY in action. He also warned me about impending rules changes that might negatively impact my curent building site and monitored the rules change and let me know the disposition and how it related to me. (My perk tests, over a year old, were grandfathered).
You can bet I'll' give him a shot at my new job and recommend him to anyone needing his services.
Thanks again for the heads up.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (02/15/03 10:57 AM)
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