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Bayrat
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New siding advise
12/11/02 06:40 PM
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I am in the process of collecting prices for siding and am very unfamiliar  with the materials/quality available today. I have some cedar on the house now and am going to price the whole job in cedar as well as just the front in cedar to complement the existing siding and the rest in  vinyl. I have never been impressed with the vinyl jobs I have seen, it always seems to look like plastic wrap with gaping seams. What should one look for when shopping for this stuff? How does a "good grade" of vinyl compare with cedar siding in cost?
Bayrat
Edited by Bayrat (12/11/02 06:40 PM)
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: New siding advise
[re: Bayrat]
12/11/02 06:47 PM
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Cedar siding is pretty expensive around here. Vinyl is cheaper cost wise, but you still have the labor. I think the Cedar, properly maintained, will have a longer life that the vinyl.
Vinyl siding can also get pricey, depending on what grade you get. There are several newer technologies available. One uses a fiberglass rod embedded in the top of the siding strip to keep the siding from bulging when warm. Another hangs the vinyl strip from small cable hangers so that the siding can move better. Vinyl siding expands and contracts with temperature, hence the bulgy, wavy look you will see on some houses in the warmer weather.
When I was looking at siding (about 2 years ago), I did a lot of internet crawling. There are a couple of good manufacturers websites. Your first job is going to be checking out the different grades of siding and deciding which one you want.
SHF
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beenthere
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Re: New siding advice
[re: Bayrat]
12/11/02 09:31 PM
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What cedar siding configuration are you talking about? Bevel siding, board and batten, ?? I am assuming bevel, but don't know what the existing siding is you are trying to match. Local prices would be good to check on, for the price to you.
I just finished some additional board (1x12) and batten cedar siding (about $2 per square foot) on my house today. I like the looks of wood better than anything in vinyl. Your description of vinyl was very good.
Edited by beenthere (12/11/02 09:33 PM)
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DFB
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Re: New siding advise
[re: Bayrat]
12/11/02 09:38 PM
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Bayrat, for years I was never a big fan of vinyl of siding. Real wood clapboards were always on my homes, and it was either paint 'em or stain 'em. The one exception was a cape that had cedar shingles, that one was allowed to naturally weather. Now days I have a premium vinyl siding on two different houses that I currently own. If your at all interested in vinyl take a look at Mastic by ALCOA. http://www.mastic.com/ Lots of colors and design choices.
One has been done with their QUEST3 in American Walnut and other with the Carvedwood2 series in Colonial Yellow. Double 4 on each. Both are very good looking sidings. There is also another line, the BARKWOOD, along with a version called Cedar Discovery. All worth taking a look at.
I feel most problems people associate with vinyl siding are because of the lesser quality inherent in the cheaper grades and of course in the installation. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to install vinyl products, but like any good siding work proper story layout and joint overlap are key elements of a good installation. Its actually quite nice to work with, for the most part both lightweight and clean.
DFB
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Argee
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Re: New siding advise
[re: Bayrat]
12/11/02 09:48 PM
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SHF makes some good points regarding vinyl siding. The best thing about vinyl is "little to no maintenance"....can't say that for cedar. There are additional alternatives out there, but, they are dependent on what "final look" your trying to achieve and how fat your wallet is. In lap siding you can get a colored siding with a grain that is made out cement board. It doesn't contract or expand but, you need some specialized tools to put it up....ie, a miter saw w/carbide blade and a nail gun (unless you want to predrill every hole).....if you have these tools your halfway home....Vinyl can look good if you buy a higher quality and install it properly...remember "Vinyl is Final" 
Argee 
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RobS
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Re: New siding advise
[re: Bayrat]
12/12/02 05:45 AM
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We went with vinyl on our house for cost reasons. Used a top of the line siding though and it looks pretty good. Much better than the thin stuff. The siders even commented about the "sturdiness" of the stuff. Of course they weren't too happy about having to cut everything with a saw since the snips they usually use wouldn't work.
If money had been no object we would have used fiber-cement siding like Hardi-plank. It looks and hangs like cedar but lasts forever. Also would have given us more color choices as it is painted just like cedar. That's the other negative with vinyl, only so many colors to choose from
Rob
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WVBill
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Re: New siding advise
[re: Bayrat]
12/12/02 06:54 AM
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There are some pretty good discussions of this topic on the This Old House web site.
I went there specifically looking for a product I had seen on one of their shows that might have addressed your situation (but I didn't find it). This product was basically, pre-assembled panels of cedar shingle siding. As I recall there were maybe two or three courses of shingles assembled to a plywood sheathing board making a panel about 2' x 8'.
There may be info on it on the TOH website, I just didn't find it in my quick search.
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DFB
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Re: New siding advise
[re: WVBill]
12/12/02 08:09 AM
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Excellent information WVBill. Thanks for the link.
DFB
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Pat
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Re: New siding advise
[re: DFB]
12/13/02 07:54 AM
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DFB, Thanks for posting the URL of the vinyl folks. I spent nearly an hour reading and looking. Did you read their waranty? Lifetime to purchaser, transferable to a buyer converting then to 50 year prorata waranty. The prorata schedule was interesting. It maxed out at 14 years. From 14 years to 50 years they reimburse 10%.
The hail waranty was interesting too. After you exhaust your homeowners insurrance and all other coverages they reimburse you for the difference between your coverage and the cost of replacement materials up to the cost of the materials. They use the original purchase cost as a basis. With inflation, in a couple decades that becomes a joke.
Still, they have one of the better warantees. I'm not complaining or ridiculing the manufacturer, just was amused at the difference between the advertising hyperbole and the actual waranty.
In the advertisement copy they brag about their fade resistance but in the warantee they explain that the warantee is to cover fading that far exceeds "normal" fading due to exposure to light, and the environment. Fading to qualify must exceed 4 shades (by some standard fading rating) beyone normal fading.
I'm still in the market for vinyl siding and am glad to get the info on this supplier. They are now included as candidate suppliers.
Thanks again for the useful info... A N D ... the entertainment.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: New siding advise
[re: Pat]
12/13/02 08:59 AM
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Just a bit of trivia: If I recall correctly, vinyl siding is composed of several layers melted together. Only the top layer is always new vinyl. The Bottom layers are often recycled.
That said, I chose vinyl siding one grade up from the bottom. The reason was time. It was cheap, went up quick and gave me a good learning experience. If the siding holds up 10 years, I figure I've gotten my money out. After that, I have to admit that I've really been looking at the cement type sidings. (10 years also gives me time to watch the cement siding to see which manufacturers have products that are holding up. There have been a number of problems with different siding systems, and at least one class action lawsuit.)
SHF
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WVBill
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SHF and others:
When I built my pole building I put T1-11 siding on it planning to paint/stain it. Well that was 2 years ago and I still haven't gotten around to it due to not having the time or $.
I'll be doing it myself so the logistics is one major kicker - having to rent a sprayer on exactly the weekend that is warm enough but not too windy... etc...
So now I' thinking of vinyl siding. I could buy enough for one side at a time (a budget plus), put it up at my own pace (time/schedule plus), and with my own tools (another budget plus). And finally, I'd only have to do it once for as long as I'm going to need to care about it.
Here's my question: Has anyone done a direct diy installation cost comparison between low - mid grade vinyl v.s. stain/paint?
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DFB
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Re: New siding advise
[re: Pat]
12/13/02 09:53 AM
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Pat, yes a colorful websight indeed. 
Reading the fine print is certainly an important aspect for any purchase large or small.
I personally know of one modular home dealer that has a clause contained in his contract that says something to the effect "that they make no claims that the product can be used for its intended purpose" 
Color fading to an extent is inevitable. Normally a gradual change, the area under a shutter can tell the story quite well, though I've actually witnessed one house have all the siding (not ALCOA) removed and replaced by the installing contracter under the manufacturer's warranty due to a fading problem. At no cost to the homeowner. It belonged to my wife's grandmother. Both installers I used were pretty confident with their product and company support.
I'm sure your's will be a very well informed decision when the time comes.
DFB
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: New siding advise
[re: WVBill]
12/13/02 10:05 AM
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I haven't done any direct comparisons, but would expect the vinyl to be much more costly. The T-1-11 is already a siding system, so a large part of the cost is already installed. You would only be adding a layer of paint.
The vinyl would run about $40.00 per square (rough guess). Then you need the corner trim. J Channel, F channel, etc, etc.
The siding is relatively cheap, and is cheaper than the T-1-11.
It's all the channel and corners they are going to hit you on. Some of those trim pieces are $7.00 to $10.00 each. You can rapidly get as much in trim as you have in siding.
I have a similar problem on my pole barn. I went with T-1-11 again for the simple reason of time. When the T-1-11 is up, the barn is sided, sheathed and finished. Local code doesn't call for paint, just siding. I figured to let it naturally age to that nice gray color that old siding gets. I have a storage building that I put up about 12 years ago that way and it's been just fine. What I didn't count on is the weather in the middle of this hay field. One side turned gray over the first winter, and the other sides didn't. In fact, one side looks like I just put it up.
So, I'll be making the same decision you are in a short while.
SHF
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ljh2
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Re: New siding advise
[re: WVBill]
12/13/02 10:49 AM
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I would suggest that you go with the paint/stain route since you already have the T1-11 siding up. I'd also suggest that you get a roller attachment to go on on an airless sprayer unit. These roller units really speed up application over a regular roller, and you don't have the wind drifting problem that you have with a sprayer unit. Sprayers have their place, but I believe that a roller will give you a more even coat with better saturation -- especially since your siding has been exposed to the elements for a while with no protection.
Larry
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Bayrat
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Re: New siding advise
[re: ljh2]
12/15/02 11:00 AM
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What a great bunch of posts! I have 4" cedar clapboards above the garage roof as you can see from my picture. I have asked for an estimate to apply cedar on the whole house with vinyl on the garage, cedar on the front only and lastly all vinyl. The press-board siding is original and I really don't want to spend the time to paint it, the back is not in good shape due to the prevailing wind exposure. I have yet to check out the links here, that is my next step. Thanks to everyone that has added to it.
Bayrat
Edited by Bayrat (12/15/02 11:01 AM)
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Bayrat
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Lets see if this works.
Bayrat
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Bayrat
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/11/03 12:12 PM
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Sears gave me an estimate Thursday for the house and garage in their best vinyl siding. This does not include wrapping the windows or covering under the eves but will cover the fascia board. They have some nice features that they include with the job but I thought 15k  was a bit much for white vinyl. Having another company stop by next week. They offer an insulating board that conforms to the shape of the siding to make it more durable. I questioned having the old clapboards taken off and the salesman told me they would go over the top of it using the 1/4 inch "pink" insulating board that "breathes". I would think for that price they would rip the old stuff off and use the 3/4 inch he had in his sample bag. There is actually not much cost difference between the "better" and "best" product. If I were willing to sign that night he would have given me another $500 or so off .
Bayrat
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/11/03 03:46 PM
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I've seen installations that left the old siding and others that removed it. I believe it depends on how uneven the original wall/siding is. Removing the old siding is time consuming/messy and a lot of contractors don't want to do it.
How many square of siding are they quoting you for?
Steve
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Bayrat
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Stoneheartfarm]
01/11/03 10:17 PM
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I believe he mentioned thirteen and a quick estimate in my head comes close to that. Just seems like an awful lot of money to me.
Bayrat
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Argee
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/11/03 10:55 PM
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The reason they don't quote the siding removal is because you really don't need to and the cost for removal would be prohibitive. I've sided over buildings that had old wood siding on them, we used fanfold insulation (4' x 50' folded every 2'), it did two things, it gave a thermal barrier behind the new siding and it smoothed out the walls we were siding. Besides with the old wood siding still on the house it gives every nail something to bite into.
The going rate for labor only around these parts is $100 to $125 per square for installation of vinyl siding. The price for a middle grade siding is in the area of $65 per square plus the required J-channel, corner posts, utility trim and starter strips. Plus the cost of soffit material, F-channel and fascia, whose installation is above and beyond the siding. Then there is the added cost of the insulation (fanfold) and its installation.
Figure out how many square you have on your house and how many LF of soffit you have and do the math to see if they're quoting you a fair price. A square is = to 100 SF.
I hope this helps.
Argee
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ScottAR
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/11/03 10:59 PM
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About 3x what we paid a year ago for a vinyl "makeover" for one of the rentals. We did most of the prep ourselves, repairing rotten wood in a few spots, etc. Think it was about $3800. Keep in mind this was economy siding, (bottom or 1 step up from bottom) and we were going over masonite siding so it was basicly already a flat surface.
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Bayrat
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Argee]
01/12/03 07:49 AM
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OK, I see the reason for leaving the old siding. I had the roof stripped when it was done because I never liked the look of a roof-over, besides they seem to blow off more during the heavy winds we get around here on occasion. If the best practice is to leave the old on, that is fine. My siding is a bit wavy to the windward with a few minor bad spots but other than that it looks ok. If I figured $200 per sq. (up from your $125) that would be $2600 for the labor and $1300 for the siding(almost double the cost you mentioned). Lets add another $100 per square for J channel and trim ($1300), and $100 per square for insulation. I'll even throw in $100 a square for coffee breaks and warming their fingers. This all totals $7800, more what I had figured it would cost from the start. Thanks for the figures Argee.
Bayrat
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Stoneheartfarm
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/12/03 02:50 PM
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If you can do it yourself, you can save some cost, but you will have no one to complain at, and vinyl siding does have a few small tricks.
You could also go to a cheaper grade of siding. Your numbers sound about right. Alot depends on the amount of channel that is needed. Generally, I've found that the siding is relatively inexpensive. It's the channel that eats you alive.
Steve
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Bayrat
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Stoneheartfarm]
01/25/03 10:38 AM
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Another estimate from a local top rated company. 20k to do the job. That includes removing the old right down to the existing Tyvek wrap that they claim does not breath very well. They will not put theirs over the old stuff. Their top of line is really great looking product that is installed with a breathable white foam backing about an inch thick that conforms to the shape of the siding giving it a solid look and feel. I just don't have the money to do it that way at this time and probably would not be satisfied with anything else  after seeing this.
Bayrat
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beenthere
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/25/03 11:30 AM
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In reply to:
That includes removing the old right down to the existing Tyvek wrap that they claim does not breath very well. They will not put theirs over the old stuff.
If I understand what you said, the claim is that the Tyvek does not breath very well, and they won't put their siding over the Tyvek? But they only will remove everything down to the Tyvek? Something smells fishy about this company. Who removes the Tyvek? I certainly would not allow someone to remove the Tyvek (which does allow moisture out, but is a wind break and won't allow moisture in) from my house.
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Bayrat
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: beenthere]
01/25/03 12:41 PM
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They do remove the Tyvek, I guess I was not clear in that statement. The company claims it is the best of a bad system (wrapping) but can trap moisture in the walls between the insulation vapor barrier and the wrap. Not being a builder or hobbyist, I am not familiar with these materials but understand the theory. I do know that in the early 70's there was much experimentation with insulation, wraps, heating systems etc..due to the fake energy shortage and a moratorium on the use of natural gas (figure that one out, I had to have oil installed in my house during an oil "crisis"). This contractor claims the blue and the pink insulating foam board used under most siding materials these days does not breath either, but they will use it if requested to. Their material is a white foam that resembles that of the old foam coolers and is supposed to let moisture seep through eventually. I comes in both flat panels as well as sculpted to accommodate the contour of the chosen siding if you want to go the extra 2k expense for it.
Bayrat
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beenthere
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/25/03 02:09 PM
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Well, I would suggest doing some research into that question about the wrap and those siding peoples comments. I don't think they are correct. It will be up to you to check it out or take their word for it.
http://www.tyvekconstruction.com/
This site may help for starters. The way I understand it, it is true that the foam insulation stops moisture movement, which is the very reason Tyvek wrap and similar wraps was invented.
As I said, it wouldn't be coming off my house.
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Bayrat
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: beenthere]
01/26/03 07:12 AM
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Believe me, I am not taking the word of these salesmen, but it makes me think when one says it is best to go over the old siding and the other says it is best to remove it. Granted the removal job is more expensive but the siding is better quality and so is the backing. I think they are both too high at this point. I have more or less just begun this project, it may be a year before I decide what to do. My company is in turmoil and I may have to relocate (or not), not have a job (or will) but will not know for sure until next year at the latest. Then there is the possibility of wanting to take a better position somewhere in New England if one should arise. So I am in no hurry and that is what I expressed to these siding people. I have yet to hear from the Mennonite builders, they are extremely busy so it will take some time to line them up.
Bayrat
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Stoneheartfarm
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Loc: West Central Michigan
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
01/26/03 12:14 PM
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Bayrat,
Some of your pricing is area specific, and is based on the wages and labor charges for your area.
When I built my house, I also heard the stories about Tyvek. Which is why I went with OC Pink wrap. It appears to basically be the same stuff (used pop bottles), but is woven like a place mat, allowing plenty of places for moisture to exit. Over top of that, we placed 1/4 inch of fan fold pink board. The siders are right that pink and blue boards do not breathe well. OC describes pink board as "Hydrophobic".
If I understand it right, the idea behind the wrap covered by fanfold is this-- moisture penetrating the wall of a house will pass through the house wrap, hitting the back side of the fanfold. There it will condense and run harmlessly down between the wrap and fanfold without causing damage to either the structure or the siding. It was explained to me that you put foam on the exterior of the house to keep the sheating and wall warmer so that moisture in the wall will not freeze until it has passed all the way through. Apparently, there is (or was) some problem with moisture entering the wall, and not completely passing through before freezing. (Then when spring comes, the frost thaws out and runs down inside the wall.)
As far as cost. Locally, a 1x4x8 sheet of Pink board is about $10-11.00. Or, I can go to the local foam store and buy heavy weight, construction rated, bead board for about $5-6.00 per sheet. Bead board is R rated based on weight. The heavier it weighs per cubic foot, the higher the R rating. As with all insulation, R is measured at 75 degrees or so and will change as temperature goes up or down. Lower temperature increases the R on foam and decreases the R on fiberglass. If I recall correctly, it is the opposite for higher temperatures. Also, if I understand it right, the heavier the weight of beadboard (higher R), the less likely it is to pass moisture. (It will still pass some, just not as much.)
If you want to check it out a little bit more, go to Owens-Corning's website. They have a lot of homeowner information and there is a calculator to tell you the recommended R values for your locality, ceiling type and heating type. (After calculating all that, I added insulation over their recommendation, going instead to the level for a colder region. I too remember the 70's  ).
Steve
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dmccarty
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Reged: 09/12/02
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Posts: 35
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
02/13/03 08:13 AM
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Bayrat,
I'm coming into this thread a bit late...
My understanding of Tyvek is that it is a vapor barrier. Its
not a moisture barrier. The other wraps are the same. Now
this is good for letting the house breath the moisture from
the inside of the house OUT. But it does not keep the water
from getting IN. Siding leaks water. Even brick leaks water.
What one needs is called a drain plane behind the siding.
Tyvek is not a drain plane. 15 or 30 pound felt can be used
as a drain plane.
I think there is going to be a lot of lawsuits one of these days
against the house wrap industry. But they also seem to have
a lot of legaleze in their warrenty and blame the installers.
The last time I checked Tyvek wanted the wrap installed with
the nails with the big washers. How many houses have you
seen wrapped and stabbled. How is a stable doing to keep
out water? Water is what kills houses...
My house spec to my builder is 2 layers of 15# felt or one
layer of 30#. I'm leaning more to the w layer.....
Read up on this stuff and be careful.
Later,
Dan
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Bayrat
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Reged: 09/23/02
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Posts: 83
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Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: dmccarty]
02/13/03 05:46 PM
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Thank you Dan. I am in the process of bidding for another position at the moment so the siding is on hold anyhow. Still waiting to hear from the Mennonite and I think they will build to my specs.
Bayrat
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GSS
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Reged: 10/08/02
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Loc: Tarentum, PA
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: Bayrat]
02/14/03 09:13 AM
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I'm late to this thread too, but for comparison sake, here are the details on my vinyl job done last summer: white Alcoa Liberty Elite; dark green Alcoa aluminum soffit, fascia and a few window wraps; light green foam board under siding; about 33 squares of siding needed - Total cost of siding, soffit, fascia, foam board, etc materials and installation: $16,900. I could have chosen a smaller outfit to do it, but I was concerned about quality of installation, so I chose not to go the cheapest route.
A few thoughts: Do NOT get sucked in by these salesmen knocking $x off if you sign now. That is crap. A guy tried to pull that with me and his "discounted" price was almost $25,000! I told him to beat it. Even the guys I went with originally came in at almost $20k. After some talking and seeing that they were interested in doing my place, I got them to call the owner and see what the absolute best was that he could do. If they aren't willing to budge, tell them you'll think about it. Then call them a week or so later and see if they are willing to negotiate.
By the way, it was all put over my 100+ year old dutchlap siding. You really don't want to take the old stuff off, especially if you don't have any insulation in the walls. The wood provides an R value. Even if you want to put insulation in there, just get cellulose blown in from the outside. That's what we did after I tore off all the old aluminum and before they started the siding. We're seeing energy savings already...
I'd be happy to answer questions if you have any.
- Gerald
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Bayrat
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Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: GSS]
02/14/03 09:44 PM
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Once I get back into the estimate/contractor mode, I will be asking all kinds of questions, for now the job situation and the three feet of snow here are occupying the mind. The job for obvious reasons and the snow for tractor time  .
Bayrat
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Bayrat
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Reged: 09/23/02
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Posts: 83
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Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: New siding advise/just received estimate
[re: GSS]
02/17/03 06:20 AM
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Thank you Gerald. I will post questions as soon as I can get back into that project. Too much else happening right now. Took me four hours to clear driveway and road to barn from the snow that feel since last Wednesday night. I plowed when I arrived home from work and skipped Thursday due to the late hour of my return home, what a mess by Friday night . Worked with the truck and the tractor at length to allow for two wheel drive traffic again.
Bayrat
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