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nbarker
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propane vs natural gas
04/10/08 04:23 PM
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Which one is better to use? They have been drilling for a lot of wells in my new homesite and my house would be able to get natural gas. Currently it is set up with propane. The clincher is that I'd have to pay for the additional ng line, since the house is set more than 100 feet from the road.
Just wonder if it would be worth the expense to have the ng line installed. IMO, it seems that propane is going to keep getting more expensive with the increase in crude oil.
Live....Laugh....Love....Learn
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Bird
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: nbarker]
04/10/08 05:31 PM
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I've lived in town with natural gas, in the country with propane, and full time RV living with propane. I also spent a couple of years doing gas leakage surveys for natural gas companies. Personally, I wouldn't give a nickle for the difference as far as performance is concerned; i.e., heating, cooking, etc. However, as you said, it appears propane may be going up in price faster than natural gas, and you have to be sure to have someone come at the right time to keep your propane tank filled.
As for the safety factor, I don't consider it a big deal myself, as long as you know and understand the gasses. The one big difference is that natural gas is lighter than air, will rise and usually dissipate. LPG is heavier than air and will settle and pool to some extent in low places.
For convenience, I prefer natural gas and in my part of the country, I think for financial reasons, it's preferable, but I don't know anything about prices in your area.
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egon
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: Bird]
04/11/08 04:29 AM
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Safety wise there should be no difference in an enclosed area like a house.
Cost wise the NG may have a cost advantage due to lower distribution costs??? 
Given the choice I'd use NG.
Egon
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JazzDad
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: nbarker]
04/11/08 08:30 AM
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For me, it comes down to cost. NG comes in via a pipe. LPG comes in via a truck, that burns fuel and has to be driven by someone collecting a paycheck.
All kids are gifted; some just open their packages earlier than others.-Michael Carr
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egon
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: JazzDad]
04/11/08 09:50 AM
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Somewhere back down the line both may come via pipeline.
Also remember back at the beginning of the NG pipeline there is a compressor with all the associated costs including napping operators when all goes well!
Egon
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Pat
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: egon]
04/12/08 11:34 AM
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Prices of propane track natural gas prices fairly well when propane is purchased in larger quantities. The only folks I know with a big lopsided advantage are the folks who get free natural gas from a producing gas well. They have gas fired refrigeration, gas mantle yard lights, gas everything that gas will run.
Unless there is quite an anomaly in pricing I suspect it will take quite a while for the savings in gas to pay for much plumbing.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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swines
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: nbarker]
06/30/08 02:06 PM
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Natual gas, as distributed by a gas company, is a mixture of propane and butane. It is usually measured in "therms," or the amount of gas required to make 100,000 BTU's of heat.
The reason for the therm is that the ratio of propane to butane is changed depending upon temperature. Butane has a higher BTU rating than propane, but it liquifies at about 40F, meaning it cannot be transported by pipeline in low temperatures. In order to get around this problem, the gas company will add propane to the butane.
So, in the winter time, you are getting a mixture with more propane, meaning you have to use more cubic feet of gas than if you were using only butane - hence, the therm is the equalizer as they are selling you an amount of heat and not a delivery of a measured amount of gas (cubic feet).
Delivered propane is a lower BTU heat source - but the liquid will change to a gas at low temperatures so you will always have heat.
Either gas source will work with any type of gas appliance you just have to change the orfice in the appliance to account for the higher pressure of natural gas or lower pressure of propane.
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egon
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: swines]
06/30/08 02:24 PM
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Natual gas, as distributed by a gas company, is a mixture of propane and butane. It is usually measured in "therms,"
Not so; they are three entirely differewnt products!
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swines
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: egon]
06/30/08 04:11 PM
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Not where I come from. I've discussed this at length with the local gas company, Public Service Company of New Mexico, when I tried to figure out my gas bill and how they arrived at the final billing amount - and how therms could vary radically at different times of year - even with the heating system off. (My house gets a lot of solar gain and I really don't need the heating system on until usually mid-November).
They also charge a "transmission fee" based on the number of cubic feet of gas delivered + a "maintenance fee."
Natural gas - delivered in New Mexico, and purchased by PNM from a variety of sources, is a mixture of butane and propane.
Edited by swines (06/30/08 04:13 PM)
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egon
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: swines]
06/30/08 05:44 PM
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If that is the case I surely hope you do not have methane jets in your appliances!
Egon
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Bird
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: swines]
06/30/08 06:43 PM
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Like Egon said, they are different products. However, in some cases, they can be mixed. When I was doing gas leakage surveys, I did one in an area of Pennsylvania in which the pipeline bringing the natural gas to the town from the cross country pipeline was not big enough to allow enough volume through in some cold spells during the winter. And when that happened, they had a special set up to inject some propane into the natural gas lines. I don't remember what the ratio was, but it was a relatively small amount of propane added to the natural gas.
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Pat
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: swines]
07/02/08 01:57 PM
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Well, while we are picking on the new guy (Swines) let me say this:
When you said, "Delivered propane is a lower BTU heat source - but the liquid will change to a gas at low temperatures so you will always have heat. "
You may have been well intentioned but you were seriously misinformed.
With propane in an outdoor tank you are subject to loss of service at low temperatures. The vapor pressure of propane goes to zero as the temperature of the propane drops to -44F (For Egon: -40F = -40 C)
When in the USAF stationed at Minot, North Dakota I was out in -47F temps. A temp of -40 or lower is not unusual for Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, Montana, and so forth.
As the temp gets down the pressure in the propane tank goes down until at -44 there is no pressure. If you open a valve to the air there it no gas pressure and no big blast of gas is bled off into the atmosphere.
So when it gets cold in the frozen north, propane tanks stop supplying fuel under their own pressure. Folks have been known to build a fire next to the propane tank to get some pressure so the stove in the house can be lit.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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RonL
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: swines]
07/02/08 03:16 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas
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egon
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: Pat]
07/02/08 07:27 PM
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Well; if the hydro is till available usually a light bulb under the tank regulator cover will suffice!
Egon
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Pat
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: egon]
07/03/08 11:25 AM
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Egon, I don't understand what you mean "if the hydro is still available.)
If you are trying to keep the regulator thawed the light bulb would probably work. If you use a lot of gas there is significant cooling of the tank as the heat of vaporization has to come from somewhere. If it is already at or below the zero pressure temp than the tank just won't supply gas.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: Pat]
07/03/08 12:58 PM
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Up here in Canada we refer to electricity as "Hydo" probably because of water power generation.
Egon
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Pat
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: egon]
07/04/08 06:08 AM
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Egon, Sorry about that but hydro really had me confused. Makes sense now that you explain it, mostly. I thought I was a cunning linguist but apparently don't even have a good handle on the idiomatic utterances of my fond neighbors to the north.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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zuiko
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Re: propane vs natural gas
[re: Pat]
09/28/08 01:19 AM
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I would find out the current per-therm price they want for the natural gas and compare to the current per-gallon price for propane from your dealer... Propane has something like 92,000 btus per gallon. So if you multiply the per-gallon price by 1.08 that will give you a price to compare to therms.
If it is close I would probably stick with propane, since you are bound to have a few dollars in fixed costs added to your natural gas bill every month and there is the cost of putting in the line as well. OTOH, you can reclaim a little bit of property by losing the propane tank(s).
Another thing to consider is that you will have to re-jet or replace your propane appliances. Most (stoves, furnace/boiler) should have natural gas orfices available. Not sure about water heaters... those are usually sold as two separate models. You may also have gas piping issues. You need more volume of gas to provide the same BTUs, so depending on the size of you gas supply pipes inside the house now, you may have to replace them to go to natural gas.
Edited by zuiko (09/28/08 03:18 AM)
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