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Pat
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Smooth bore .22
02/24/04 10:59 AM
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I sure would like to find a smooth bore .22 (hmm, can't call it a rifle) uhh err ahh, long gun. I would prefer a repeater. In priority order an autoloader, pump, lever action, or bolt action. I would settle for a single shot but just barely.
I think I recall Gary or one of the other smart guys saying something about a minature trap shoot game or some such that used a smooth bore. When I was a kid there were smooth bore .22s around and still advertised but I have never actually used one and wold like to find one. I think I could have a lot of fun with one.
Any leads or sugestions would be greatly appreciated. I suppose I cold have a gunsmith un-rifle a barrel but it wouldn't be the same. The bore would be oversized and resullt in reduced velocity of the shot string.
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/24/04 11:52 AM
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OK, I'm curious. Why would anyone want a smooth bore?
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Bird]
02/24/04 12:24 PM
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Smooth bore is better when using rat shot.
Or bird shot.
Or snake shot.
Whatever they're calling it nowadays.
I use .22 and .38 snake shot shells.
Gary
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I forgot about that, thanks, Gary. I never used the shot shells in rifles or pistols, but my old granddaddy sure killed a lot of birds out of his fruit trees with those in a .22.
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/24/04 01:08 PM
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I believe Marlin re-introduced a gun like that.
Here is a link to some information: Marlin 25mg
It's a bolt action. I seem to recall a 22 long rifle version too, but may be mistaken.
Here is another link to a review
Looks like fun!
Fishman
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Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Fishman]
02/24/04 02:12 PM
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Bird,
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0BQY/3_46/59281208/p1/article.jhtml
Here is first paragraph of this link.
"Rimfire shot cartridges have been around for decades. They're fine for shooting snakes or mice-sized critters at close range, but deliver lousy patterns from a rifled barrel. At 10 feet (not yards), most .22 rifles throw a 7" or 8" shot pattern with several flyers. At twice that range, .22 LR shot loads aren't very effective particularly from a rifled bore."
Not too much left to say... I have fired shot shells from .22 rifles and pistols, .44 magnum, .357 magnum and .38 special and rifling is a detriment to good "printing" on a piece of paper at ranges yo expect to find useful. I have factory CCI shot shells that autoload just fine in my Baby Glock in .45 Colt Gov auto. Range iiisn't much to brag about but will slow down a big snake before it gets close enough to strike.
We have 4 bird feeders in back yard. They are messy eaters and the rats come out to get the leavin's but not within good range of a rifled gun with shot shells. Don't want to poison as birds or something uninteded will probably get killed. Don't like to use regular .22 for a couple reasons: potential bad bounce and small target running serpentine. 12 ga is a bit overkill.
Other targets will present themselves for wing shooting. I bet llarge grasshoppers would be fun.
Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/24/04 03:37 PM
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Still curious as to why the rifling can't just be removed?
In other words have the barrel drilled out to .22 as the rifling dia. should prove to be less than the .22.
Should be easy to check with calipers.
Egon
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/24/04 03:44 PM
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Pat
I couldn't find all the info I was looking for, but I have had much better experience with the Federal Classic .22 long rifle bird shot than I did with the CCI .22 shot shell. I did find that there is #10 shot in the Federal. In fact, I couldn't believe what would not drop dead with the CCI, and then switched back to the Federal. I at first figured they were both the same.
Your argument about the smooth bore makes sense. However, I shoot ground squirrels regularly with the Feds at 10 yards.
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/24/04 10:46 PM
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Pat,
I think I referred to the "Mos-keet-o" guns and outfits that were available back in the 60-70's. I saw a fellow with one at a gun show two months ago and inquired as to price. But he was asking $200 and I wasn't that keen on ownership.
You are right about perfomance in rifled barrels. I had tried the crimped loads and they did not do too well.
How about boring out the lands and swaging a choke on the last couple of inches? Or relieve the muzzle and internally thread it for home made "invector" style interchangeable choke tubes. Or just have the gunsmith make a new barrel?
Gary
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: egon]
02/25/04 07:24 AM
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Egon, There are lands and groves that constitute rifling. Protrusions and recessions. Just removing the protrusions would be an improvement but you need to have a "smooth" bore to print well. Just running a looooong drill through would surely ruin/remove the rifling but not leave a smooth bore of any size much less THE optimum size.
Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: GaryM]
02/25/04 07:43 AM
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Gary et al, I have shot the CCI blue plastic bullet shaped rounds filled with shot and other brands with elongated casings crimped on the ends. At least one brand (I don't recall which) of the "shot" shells were actually filled with a small bundle of fine wire (flechettes?) which were devastating at really close range but had the aeordynamics of toothpicks. The fine wire version had the least capacity for collateral damage since the energy bled off so quickly at extended ranges. You wouldn't be blowing holes in the shed/barn roof with those!
NONE of these various styles really "print" well in my experience and at extended ranges posted above in this thread there were considerable "holes" without covereage. Maybe I wasn't lucky to have a gun that just happened to do well with shot shells.
Gary, $200 for the Mo-Skeet-O might be cheaper than the gunsmith suggestions. Was it singleshot, repeater, autoloader or what?
My most recent bill (last week) at the gunsmith was $200 and all he did was turn down the last 1/2 inch of two muzzles, thread them for 1/2 x 28 for a distance of 0.4 inches and make a thread protector to screw on to replace the removed material, AND reset the front sights back behind the threaded portion.
This is pretty simple machining. Nothing complicated. I could get it done better for less but with shipping and insurance it was a wash so I chose to support my local craftsperson so he may be there for me another time.
Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/25/04 10:35 AM
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Pat:
A good gunsmith would be able to provide a smooth bore. With the removal of the rifling protusions you would be at the optimum size.
Curious why threads on end of a barrel or is that just for a flash reducer.
Egon
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Egon, It is to allow me to share the GEMTECH OUTBACK model suppressor that I use on my Walther P-22 and Ruger 10-22 with my Ruger 22-45 and Mk-II target pistols. Given the cost of the Outback and the ATF hassle and expense for registration of Class 3 firearms (including national agency check, photos, fingerprints, signed form from county sheriff assenting to the registration, etc.), it seemed like the thing to do at the time. They consider the suppressor a Class 3 firearm and track it by serial number just as if it were a full automatic Tommy gun.
I scanned it in with my Leatherman (a tad over 4 inches long) as a size ref. Yes a scanner will take a decent picture.
It is light weight and rugged aluminum, T-6 aircraft aluminum, I think. Pht tink, pht tink, pht tink! Tink assumes metallic target. I assume I will get a lot of service from it on my scoped Mk-II and follow up shots will be a tad more plentiful if the varmints aren't spooked by muzzle blast and supersonic round. The P-22 with the Outback chronos at about 1000 ft/sec with CCI Blazers of MiniMags. With the 10-22 you quiet the muzzle blast but the round is supersonic, quite a crack on its own so I use Remington or Aguila subsonics in the 10-22. I have tried the Aguila primer only and all you hear is the hammer fall and firing pin strike but they aren't peppy enough for much range or reliable stopping power for anything much bigger than a field mouse unless you are close enougn to hit it with a rock.
I'm sure you have heard of the 22 mag rimfire necked down to a .177 bullet. I have a hobby project on the back burner for years waiting for time to play that is to use a .177 in a sabot in a .22 LR case (unmodified) in a standard .22 gun. Why, because it seemed like fun way back when I first thought of it (nearly 40 yrs ago).
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (02/25/04 01:48 PM)
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/26/04 05:57 AM
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Pat
Up here in the frozen north those are not even registerable.
Thoughts for a home built have crossed my mind but the hassle and consequences really would not be woth the effort.
Egon
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
02/27/04 07:46 PM
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Neat toy! Now if you can lock the slide, you'd have what the troops in 'Nam called a "hushpuppy". Basically what you have, but with a locked slide there's no action noise. You've probably seen these.
I bought 2 boxes of the primer only rounds at the last gunshow 2 weeks ago. Haven't tried them yet. The box warns that they are only for handguns as the projectile might not make it out the barrel of a rifle. Not a disaster if you realize it, just a bit of bother to drive it out.
I also bought some sabot rounds for my spring piston RWS air rifle. They look to be about .12 dia with a .177 plastic sabot that seals the bore. Another thing to try out soon.
The .22 shotgun was a bolt action. don't recall seeing a magazine, so it was probably single shot. I guess I should have bought it. Maybe I'll see it again next time.
Gary
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Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: egon]
03/02/04 10:08 PM
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Egon, Disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer...
Actually quite quiet units are simple to make in many different ways. I know how but refrain as the penalty is far out of proportion to any perceived benefit. Haven't been to a big gun show in a long time but there used to be booksellers there with all manner of truly frightening books on how to do a lot of illegal things like full auto conversions, suppressors, bombs, boobytraps and on and on.
I saw a private shooting range (in a crowded city situation) that used sound absorbent material to line a steel culvert that was burried in sand and covered with topsoil to support landscaping flowers. There were lights at the end of the long dark tunnel and an endless clothesline target placing and retrieving system. It was about 36 inches in diameter by 50 ft long and had a smaller pipe mounted at right angles at the far end. This served as a mount for an exhaust fan that drew out all the smoke. In use you held the weapon about as far into the tube as was comfortable and that was that. Pretty quiet. He originally built a padded front end with a view port and a sleve into which the shooting hand protruded. It was for max quiet but he determined that it was a pain to use and not needed as it was pretty quiet without it.
I thought it was cool to be able to target shoot in an urban neighborhood. Not legal but cool.
I opt for legal and cool.
Gary, With a slight modification of my two hand target shooting grip, I can hold the bolt closed on my Ruger autoloader pistols as well as the Walther P-22 by using my off hand thumb.
The Colibri are OK but not as much punch as some of my air rifles. The Super Colibri have enough punch to be useful. They are still carryijng the "No long guns" notice but I don't know anyone who has had a short round with them. I have fired several boxes and my only complaint is that they won't cycle any autoloaders. Of course, Remington and Aguila (Maker of Colibri primer only rounds) subsonics cycle the walther just fine with the supressor but don't reliably cycle the 22-45. Maybe after it is well broken in, it will.
Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
03/02/04 10:23 PM
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pat,
I'm looking at the box of rounds I bought and it's marked ".22 Super Colibri" and the manufacturer is Aguila. It has a 20 grain projectile. They are manufactured in Mexico. I'm going to try them in all my .22 handguns. I have a Ruger MII, a High Standard Citation, a Beretta Mod 21A, and a S&W Mod 43. The Mod 43 will probably be best as it's a revolver and I don't have to worry about feeding issues.
I'd heard of using a buried sewer pipe for a range and know that ventilation is important. I'd heard a story, perhaps not true, that one user didn't bother with ventilation and the unburned power particles suspended in the pipe ignited and a ball of flame rolled out into the guys basement and scared to pants off of him.
Gary
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Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: GaryM]
03/03/04 08:23 AM
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Gary, Aguila makes good ammo, especially for the price. The Colibri and Super Colibri are both just fine but the "standard" Colibri are short range lower velocity and I would hesitate to fire them in just any long gun. I personally know of no one who has had a short round in the Super Colibri fired from a rifle, ignoring the warning on the boxes. The Mk II has some trouble with feeding the Super Colibri but not enough to stop my use. Likewise I experience some difficulty with them in the 10-22 but not too bad.
Of course the wheel gun will digest them just fine. The only revolver we have in .22 is a thoroughly thrashed imported single six cowboy thingy that is used for natural point of aim shooting or as a doorstop (too ugly to have on the desk as a paper weight.) I wish we still had my wife's old BearCat as its diminuitive size seems entirely appropriate for the Colibri.
Don't give up on the autoloaders. They won't cycle but they don't jam much either with Super Colibri. Just pay attentioin to having them sit cleanly in the mag, give it a few rearward taps.
The worst malfunctioning I get is with subsonics in the Ruger autoloading pistols (Mk-II and 22-45). They don't cycle reliably. With the supressor on them I shoot regular "hi vel" .22 as well as CCI Blazers, MiniMags and the like and end up with subsonic results (Expecially with the Walther P-22 and its short barrel). I can shoot subsonics through the supressor and get good autoloading due to the increased "blow back" but why bother with "speacialty" ammo when the standard garden variety gives subsonic results.
Primer residue will build up shooting the Colibri so a patch run through the bore or firing a few standard rounds will help restore things.
Do let us know how things work out for you with the Super Colibri.
I still use Speer target ammo. If you haven't tried it, give it a whorl. You need some ventilation but it can be used safely indoors with a couple minimum safety precautions. With reasonable care it can be reused hundreds of times.
Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
03/03/04 12:05 PM
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I have a box of the .38 Speer Target ammo. MyDad had it and gave it to me at Christmas. I guess it's the same as what you have. A red plastic case and black plastic projectiles? Press in a pistol primer and pop in a projectile and you're ready to go.
Gary
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: GaryM]
03/03/04 05:02 PM
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Gary, that is the stuff! A college friend and I used to fast draw on each other with it. We wore full face shield motorcycle helmets and a lab jacket over a coat. A little lipstick on the end of the projectile settled any questions of exactly where you were hit. I used my .44 mag super blackhawk and he used the .357 blackhawk that I sold him.
I know the question is, "if you are smart enough to be in college how come you are dumb enough to do this sort of thing?" We were in our 20's... 'nuff said?
You do need to swab the bore frequently to remove primer debris or you will not get consistent results. We used to set up ranges with multiple targets at different heights and distances with old quilts and blankets for back stops. After a while you can get so that you can pretty well hit where you look without using the sights. We found out real fast that fanning a six gun is futile if you want any accuracy. An important thing to remember is to aim at the "aim point" and judge accuracy by the closeness of the impact to the "normalized" bullet drop for that gun at that range.
I used the Speer rounds to train my wife to shoot a pistol without reference to the sights (front blade was removed from the Colt Army .38 we used.) She got to where she could put at least 5 out of 6 shots in a 6 inch circle at 15 feet. The drill was this... start with the weapon at your side, bring it to bear and fire then lower the weapon back to your side and repeat. Each round was a separate repetition. This is far more instructive than just changing the point of aim till you hit where you want like squirting water out of a hose at a crawling bug.
Of course after attaining this level, she could also point and empty the cylinder and get 5 or 6 in the 6 inch circle as well. I think most folks can attain this level with proper training procedure and practice. This is better than needed for successful self defense. You don't need enough light to see your sights, just enough to see the target as the weapon is not brought up to your line of sight. It is a training exercise to develop a motor skill. You do want to practice at varying ranges and some off axis shooting as well (off to the right or left of dead ahead of you as well as high and low.
It doesn't take all that long to do this with an average person with proper coaching and an honest effort on the part of the student.
Anyway, we had lots of fun with Speer target ammo. I have a new box for my wife's .357 Air light. 5 shot hammerless revolver that is just waiting for a break in our busy schedule.
Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
03/03/04 10:57 PM
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I guess I'm lucky having grown up in New York City and not having firearms with which to put my life in danger. There were otherways of course such as playing on the roofs of appartment building and throwing snowball off those same roofs at buses and autos passing below!
Gary
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: GaryM]
03/03/04 11:11 PM
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Why would growing up around firearms put your life in danger? 
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: DUMBDOG]
03/04/04 08:19 AM
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I'm only basing that comment on Pat's story about haveing quick draw contests with Speer Target Ammo.
Gary
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: GaryM]
03/04/04 09:07 AM
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Hey Gary, while dumbdog has you down, I'll kick you. How did fast drawing on each other with Speer target ammo while wearing motorcycle helmets (with full face shields) and jackets, endanger our lives?
And oh by the way, that ain't the way I heard it! You are from the era of zip guns, Sat night specials, and all that "New York" gang violence, right? Don't try to fool us, we saw "West Side Story." You, you... later day Sal Mineo!!!
Apparently around here some of the kids used to have fights with .22 shorts, for fun. Wore heavy jackets and "no aiming away from the jacket." Now that is dumb!!!! When I was a kid (and friends from other areas like Chicago etc) we used to choose up sides and have BB gun fights. After hearing. "you'll put someones eye out" enough times, we wore swiming goggles or dive masks and never got in close.
We also used potentially lethal archery equipment in later grade school and junior high and on but never in all this did any kids of my acquaintance actually get hurt directly from a weapon. No, we didn't shoot at each other with bows but it wasn't unusual to stand well apart and have a buddy shoot at a target near you then you collect the arrows and shoot them back to a target at his end. In theory I suppose someone could have been shot by a wild flier but at the ranges in question the guy at the target end would have to stand there like a post and ignore the incoming arrow. We didn't do William Tell.
Hey Dumbdog, what do you think of this reformed New York gang member getting all warm and fuzzy (thinking?)
What, am I the only guy on the forum that made guns out of water pipe that fired marbles propelled by firecrackers?
Pat
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Re: Smooth bore .22
[re: Pat]
03/04/04 12:40 PM
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All that I can really say is that I am glad to have grown up on the North Dakota prairie where the only gangs were all those gophers and we became quite good shots with a single shot 22 with open sights and did our best to decimate the local population of those little striped gang members.
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