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qtkitty
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How to finance becoming a farmer?
04/15/05 11:59 PM
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With land costs as high as they are how do farmers get started and able to get land to work? Are there grants or special loan programs?
I am extremely interested in finding farm land and building my own working farm. I would like to make the main focus of the farming to be rabbit farming (meat, pet/show quality, and fiber AKA angora) with a secondary focus of red worm farming as well as a side of finished compost.
I would also like space to allow us to become more self sufficient with extra to sell at farmers market or a road side stand if we have the location along with the worms. In the long run i would also like to start a green house for personal use and the sale of plants( and to use some of that compost that would be produced).
My question is how do farmers get started if they did not have a farm passed down to them? I do not know if states have programs, but i would have to get a farm with in an hour of a rabbit processor ( from what i have been reading that is the only way to profit at all with in the first year). Does anyone know of anyway i can make this dream of mine a reality?
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
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Pat
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/17/05 09:57 PM
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I'm afraind that the next loud sound you hear may be your bubble bursting.
The best way to end up with a given sum of money after a year of farming is to start with considerably more.
Many farmers get their start through inherited land. Another common way to start a small farm is by having a good reqular job or retirement income to make enough money to cover the losses of farming.
Small farms that make enough income to support a few people are getting to be more rare all the time. The deck is stacked in favor of the large operator. The playing field is not level.
From the info in your post I have to complement you on how tightly coupled and integrated your approach is. Meat, hides/hair (hare hair?) composted manure and worms. About the only trick you missed is selling lucky feet.
There is also something to be said for diversification and NOT having all your eggs in one basket. If for some reason the animal end didn't work or suffered a temporary setback (disease or whatever) everything else is placed in jeopardy as it is dependent on the animals.
That said, I had a friend who was involved with rabbits once. They had a buyer for the skins (prior to the big animal fur backlash) a buyer in Germany for the frozen carcasses (Germans eat a lot of rabbit) and I don't recall what they were bringing back from Germany. My friends end of the deal included flying the frozen carcasses to Germany and bringing back whatever it was they imported stateside. Buisness got a flying start (intentional pun) but some unanticipated customs/tariff issue spoiled it for them.
last rabbit story: When I was a preschooler my mom raised rabbits BUT we ate chicken. Lots of drumsticks and no wings. My sister and I would have thrown a coniption fit if we had known mom was butchering our bunnies.
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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AndyF
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/18/05 11:00 PM
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>>>My question is how do farmers get started if they did not have a farm passed down to them?
I've seen it done two ways - save money and buy a farm or work for a farmer, save money and buy the farm when he/she is ready to sell out.
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qtkitty
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: AndyF]
04/19/05 04:30 AM
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I know that the Farm Service Agency has loans for new farmers, but do they ask for repayment from day one or do they allow you a certain amount of tiem to get stock and crops set up?
Our Local Farm Service Agency told Kevin that this area does not have a demand for rabbits, that it is more goats and Llamas. It is okay because we would sort of rather relocate to be able to do the type of farming we would like to do then be doing something we hate. Not to mention moving where there is a demand and a future of regular large quantity meat rabbit sales.
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
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qtkitty
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Pat]
04/19/05 04:58 AM
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In reply to:
About the only trick you missed is selling lucky feet.
OUCH!! *lol*
Actually the hair and the meat are not intergrated, although they both use rabbits. The hare hair *lol* ...actually angora would require angora rabbits, although there are breeds of angora that can be used for both meat and angora, i would be doing just the fiber. The meat rabbits would be the breed required by the processor, and that would be the only ones sold to them. Angora bunnies shed their fur once every 3 months of so. Meat rabbits are sold at 4.5lb-6lb fryer weights at about 10-12 months. So that would REALLY be pushing it to get just one crop of fiber from the rabbit in time for it to make that 6lb limit before the price would drop dramaticly ( almost in half from what i have researched) for roasters.
The reason rabbit feet were not mentioned is because the processors keep the whole of rabbits, well unless you are willing to pay for them to butcher them and then take your items else where. OR you are willing to process the rabbits yourself, which to do so you have to set up a processing plant with in the regulations put to you by law unless you sell under a certain amount.
Yes diversification is very good, i am also thinking of other livestock & crop items that can be produced on a small farm. I have thought of sheep and goats as well. Sheep would produce wool and lambs. Goats would produce mohair and milk. I am sure you see a link of fiber, i would wish to in the end be able to offer raw fiber, fiber ready to spin, and yarn. Produce of perhaps sweet corn and pumpkins, maybe some other gardening items. Some of the produce would depend on if we found a location that was on a main drag.
I was in FFA with a local farmers son which they lived on a Hwy. They made a good portion of their earnings from selling sweet corn from a road side stand. Not only did they have Great location, but they had repeat business because as we all know real fresh sweet corn beats out any store bought "fresh" sweet corn.
In reply to:
last rabbit story: When I was a preschooler my mom raised rabbits BUT we ate chicken. Lots of drumsticks and no wings. My sister and I would have thrown a coniption fit if we had known mom was butchering our bunnies.
PAT !! OMG!!! *lol* I might have to use that one on my fiances kids, they would freak out if i sat a rabbit infront of them to eat. Kevin is unsure, but willing to try it.
BTW my bubble isn't burst yet i am bound and determined to make a farm work for us!! Even if it does require me and kevin working out of the home on top of farm work.
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
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Bird
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/19/05 06:32 AM
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In reply to:
sold at 4.5lb-6lb fryer weights at about 10-12 months
I think you meant "weeks" instead of "months". As a kid, I grew up eating cottontails, jack rabbits, and swamp rabbits, but never ate any domestic rabbits until I started raising them. As plentiful as rabbits have always been, I've never understood why they are not as common a food item as chickens.
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EJB
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/19/05 07:55 AM
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Maybe I am missing something, but to raise rabbits and worms sure doesn't sound like it would take all that much space...an acre of land will hold a LOT of rabbits and a lot of worms. You could probably even do it in the burbs....
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qtkitty
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Bird]
04/19/05 12:01 PM
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Bird~ Yes you are correct .. i made a typo.. guess i was more asleep last night or should i say earlier in the morning *lol* when i wrote that then i thought *lol*
EJB~ There are people who do raise rabbits in the Urban and in the burbs. If breed reasonably does can produce 5 litters per year and in those litters from 3-8 or more babies ( i always do my estimation to favor my loosing money to be more realistic) so each doe can produce 25 market ready rabbits per year. So if you had 7 36X30 cages you could produce 150 rabbits per year. ( Double the cages for grow out cages since babies are weaned at about 5-6 weeks then mom removed/bred and to give birth again.. by the time the new babies are ready to be weaned the older rabbits should be ready to be butchered.. ohh and do not forget a cage for the buck who would sire all.) In other countries i have read that they will breed rabbits in a spare room of their house or in their little backyard garden.
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
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Bird
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/19/05 12:26 PM
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Michelle, it sounds as if you've checked into it pretty well, but there are a number of tricks to successfully raising rabbits. You mention 5 litters a year. Yes, under ideal conditions maybe. In Texas, it gets so hot in the summer that I ran fans in the barn, but I still gave the does a rest during the hottest part of the year so 3 litters was more realistic. And I lost an entire litter once to freezing weather, so I was more careful after that and ran LPG heaters in the coldest weather. Now I just had an old existing barn. If you have a properly constructed building for rabbits, such things might not be a problem.
You mention 3 to 8 babies per litter. The smallest I ever had with New Zealand Whites was 5. However, I also had litters of 11. Now rabbits are quite possibly the world's worst mothers (I read in one book that the pros expect a near 25% mortality rate). First, she only has 8 teats, so if you have a litter of more than 8, destroy the excess immediately or you'll have even more die because they will not share. However, if you breed does so that more than one produce within a couple of days of each other, you can take the excess from one with more than 8 and give them to a doe with fewer than 8. I read in one book that when you want a doe to "adopt" some that are not hers, you sprinkle the entire group with talcum powder so they all smell alike to her. My younger brother said when he was in the FFA, they were told to rub a little Vicks Vapor Run on the mother's nose so she couldn't tell the difference the first day. I never did either; just moved my surplus to a mother who had less than 8 and never had a problem with one adopting the extras.
Another thing is that a mother rabbit will NOT pick up a baby and move it, as so many other animals do. So if one gets out of the nest, it will die unless you find it very soon and put it back yourself. Rabbits do not lie down to let the little ones nurse. They just sit there with the little ones snuggled underneath. Sometimes when the mother decides to hop off the nest, one or more little ones are still hanging on and are jerked right out of the nest. Not a problem if you're checking on them every 2 or 3 hours, but otherwise, you'll loose more.
From what I've read (and I believe it), you'll need at least 50 breeding does, and it's a full time job for 2 people, to make a living at it.
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qtkitty
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Bird]
04/19/05 04:02 PM
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How hot does it get in the summers in your part of texas? Around here it gets to be about mid 80's to lower 90's
There is a rabbit farm 2-3 hours south west of here which they do not even use fans in the summers, instead they use tree cover atleast 10-20 ft around the barns to keep it cool and to cause a cool breeze.
Rabbits feed their babies usually only once a day for about 15 minutes or less. Properly constructed nesting boxes should also keep the baby bunnies from being accidentally pulled from the nest.
Yes i have read about mothers taking on others babies.. evening out the numbers definately helps the moms cope, Nursing takes a LOT of energy out of them. Not to mention if there is a malfunction with the watering system ( freezing/busting/clog) and the mothers can not get water then they will dehydrate EXTREMELY quickly and stop giving milk if not going completely dry then you would lose even more then 25% and if any made it then they could possibly be stunted and take more feed to feed out so you would loose profit.
From what someone on another forum told me it would take about 450-800 does to really be profitable. For my peice of mind i have been trying to do all my calculations towards my loss not my gain, so that if i do better then i will be very happy.
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/19/05 05:20 PM
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Michelle, we don't have too many days when it hits 100 degrees, but my barn was not shaded by trees and it was a corrugated, galvanized sheet metal; wide open on one side and a very large open door on the opposite side, but could still get quite hot. If everything's in the shade, maybe no problem. Some of the plans I saw for rabbit barns included huge exhaust fans in one end of the building, and the wet fiber material in the other end; i.e., made a big evaporative cooler out of the building.
And yes, rabbits normally nurse once or twice a day. I'd like to see your "properly constructed" nest boxes. Of course, one way is to have them recessed in the floor of the cage. And of course the bottom of the nest box needs to be ventilated to allow the babies' urine to dry. And I think most folks use hay for nest material, but I found that newspaper run through the shredder worked even better (not a cross cut shredder but simply the 1/4" shredder).
You always want to have fresh water available. Feed is another matter. If you feed them too much, they get too fat and refuse to breed.
450-800 does? I don't see how two people can handle that, even full time. One of the books I read said 100 does and two people full time might make $30k a year.
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qtkitty
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Bird]
04/19/05 09:58 PM
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I have heard people talk about heat chimneys ... from what i can gather they build a chimney type construction and the heated air goes up and out that chimney( i am assuming the chimney has a closing mechanism on it so that it can be shut int he winter so that more hot air can be kept towards the bottom of the building).
I have also heard of extremely high barn roofs which allow the heat to get away from the ground level. The keeping shade around the outside of the building keeps the ground cooler so there is less radiated heat into the building.
I have also heard of water systems on the roof where evaporating water on the roof keeps the roof cooler and from radiating its heat into the building.
Once you get into paying for electric to fun those fans all day long, then you eat into profits REAL fast, expecially with as expensive as electric is anymore.
Yeah i know but they always say that rabbits only nurse one time a day .. i know thats a bunch of bull.. yeah they do not stay with their babies when they are in the nest .. but they go in there more then once. Our Daisy Dot she is a terrific mother .. she has had 2 litters of 4 bunnies each.. both times she nursed them more then 2 times. This last time she nursed a max of 4 times a day. Yes my bunnies are different then meat rabbits, but the basics are still the same... sometimes  .
I actually use small card board boxes of course i could not do that if i was running a rabbit farm.. i do about 2 inches for a dwarf to jump to get out.... the more material you put in the higher you have to make the lip ... everyone tells me hay is best, but i also have found that my bunnies respond the best to shreaded newspaper. I have had no conjunctive eye issues so i am very happy with that.
Everything i hear is that recessed nest boxes are a waste.
In reply to:
One of the books I read said 100 does and two people full time might make $30k a year.
* frowns * with todays feed costs that just isn't possible, atleast i don't think so. Okay let me do some calculating.. remember i always calculate to me lossing.
okay you have 100 does each doe has lets say 5 live babies by time to go to the processor.
That is 500 babies.
Perfect market weight for fryers is usually 4.5-6lbs.. so lets say the average was 5 lb.
That is 2500lb of meat... lets say you have a regular contract with a processing company for $1 a pound .. which if the demand is high in the area then thats a GREAT price.
So over all you have made $2500
Lets take your 3 litters a year .. so that would be $7500 per year.
My 5 litters per year it would be $12500 her year.
okay well we have yet to take out the cost of feed.
To feed a rabbit out it takes 4lbs of food to 1 lb of rabbit meat. People who are really good at getting amounts perfect can go as little as 3.1-3.7 lb per lb rabbit.
Lets go with the 4 to one ... 2500lb rabbit fed 4 pounds of food to get to weight. That is 10,000 pounds of food for each batch.
Then you also have to feed the does during their lifetime ... lets just say it takes the same 4 pounds of rabbit food per female bunny per pound per litter to keep the doe. Does are grown out so they weigh what about 7lb depending on the breed. So that would be 2800lb of food per batch. ( Let's say that also keeps the bucks all feed as well to make it easier )
Rabbit food goes bad with in 3 months so basically every breeding you start over new. One breeding you would have 12800 lb of feed. At a feed store you would be paying about $8-7 per 50lb bag of feed. $1792-2048 just for feed each breeding.
3 breedings per year would cost $5376-6144
5 breedings per year would cost $8960-10240
Let make that tons since you can get better bulk prices per the ton at feed mills. 6.4 tons.. which i dont know so i will not go there *lol*
3 Breeds per year you would make $2124 per year.
5 breeds per year you would make $3540 per year.
"A 400-doe rabbitry is generally considered a full-time operation for one person. " http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/alt-ag/rabbit.htm
At 400 does you would probubly be able to get better feed prices out of sheer volume alone, however you would have to have a regular High volume of rabbits at a processor.
It would be something like:
400 does
2,000 rabbits per cycle
6,000-10,000 rabbits per year
30,000-50,000 lb of rabbit a year
$30,000-50,000 for rabbit meat per year
25 tons per cycle
76-128 tons per year
$7168 of feed per cycle ( probubly could get it lower because of volume)
$21504-35840 of feed per year
And you make $8496-14160 per year.
Of course those prices do not incluse other sales of manure nor brackage of equipment wear and tare on vehicles and gas.
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
Edited by qtkitty (04/19/05 10:01 PM)
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beenthere
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/19/05 10:46 PM
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That will be a hard sell to a banker, and it sounds like it isn't a very profitable business venture, if I read your figures right. Might even run a big loss.
Maybe raising rabbits is just for fun, or a hobby. 
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qtkitty
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: beenthere]
04/19/05 11:38 PM
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Of course that is totalling for me as well... better totals can be made if i knew the area and the feed mills near there .. the breed of rabbit .. It also would depend on how well i could go that fine line between 3lb of feed per 1lb of rabbit meat and 4lb of feed per 1lb of rabbit meat.
So the less the price of feed and the amount being fed to create 1 lb of rabbit .. and the higher price that a processor would be willing to pay changes the finishing total dramatically .. a penny per lb of feed or an extra oz. per bunny can make a BIG difference.
That is also a one person opperation for the 400(to 450 ) range supposedly.
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
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Bird
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: beenthere]
04/20/05 06:26 AM
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In reply to:
Maybe raising rabbits is just for fun, or a hobby
When I started, it was primarily because I, and most of my family, like to eat rabbits. I checked into the possibility of making any money, and as with any venture, you've got to have a market for your product. At that time, most of the processors were in Arkansas. As a member of the American Rabbit Breeders Association, I got a magazine which, in each issue, listed the processors and what they were currently paying. So I knew I wasn't going to make any money, but did try to sell enough to offset some of the costs.
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wingnut
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
04/20/05 06:28 AM
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Just a couple of comments (late in the game) regarding financing.
Because of my background, I tend to have different views on "profitable farming". First off, lets talk about the myth of the family farm. This is not a career ... it is a lifestyle. A family farm, especially a "mixed farm" was a way for a family to EXIST ... not get rich. Worked properly, a family farm would provide sufficient food for the family to exist, as well as providing surplus foodstuff as to trade for those items not available on that farm. It never was a place where the farmer expected to make as much as an assembly line worker in Detroit.
Those farmers who DID want to become wealthy had to change that lifestyle completely. The size of a family farm precluded intensive farming .... grain, corn, or other crops needed to cover a lot more acres that Joe AverageFarmer could do on his own ... which is why they can't compete to the big Ag guys with million buck tractors/combines/etc.
Replacing the family farm - due to lifestyle as much as economics - are us "hobby farmers" who support our farming efforts with "day jobs". That allows us the luxury (which is what it is) of having miniature horses, or crops of garlic, or an acre of lavendar or suchlike. We use our wages to subsidize a farm that might make a few bucks but never allow us to live as we've been accustomed to ...
Now, to loans - from government farm agencies or banks or other .... research "business plan". Anyone who might be prevailed upon to loan you money will be interested in one thing and one thing only .... what your business plan shows (and doesn't). They're going to be looking to see what the economics are ... can you repay the principal and the interest which will be accruing. Can you make enough profit, or generate enough cash - after servicing the loan - to continue to operate. If you default, will there be enough value to seize to satisfy the loan. Basically, can YOUR business serve THEIR business (their business is to loan money and make a good profit off the interest). You will live and die on your business plan - if the lender sees that you've done your homework and have outlined a reasonable chance of profit, you have a chance of getting money. If, however, your business plan revolves around getting other people to pay huge sums for elk antlers for male potency potions ... well, likely they'll politely say "thanks, but no thanks".
If you find a niche market ... like supplying local markets/stores with a popular garlic clove or something like that .... you have enough land. But you need to do a whole lotta research. There are things that might be profitable, and may be do-able, as long as you identify the market and assure yourself that you won't be immediately replaced by a bigger operation who sees an opportunity to expand. That would usually indicate labor-intensive (rather than capital intensive) things ... like food animals that don't require much land (e.g. meat goats or milk goats).
Anyway ... good luck, you seem to be doing things right by doing a lot of research before diving in the pool!
pete
it's a shame that common sense isn't
http://www.dahlhausminiatures.com
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qtkitty
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: wingnut]
04/20/05 06:18 PM
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Profitable to me is making enough to keep a roof over our heads and pay the bills, food in our mouth, a vehicle to get from point a to b, to clothe ourselves, and a little extra above and beyond that is funds to save to use later.
I do not want a farm to piddle and play and have tons of pets ... although any animals for fibers and milk will definately be doted on. I want a farm in the end that will serve us and make us a little money. I want to make sure that it will be able to work before we go trying to get $ as well .. so i research and talk on forums to gain insight. "Learn to do, Do to Learn" as they said in FFA.
Michelle
Just a country girl at heart wanting that country life back and the farm of her dreams.
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Pat
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
05/01/05 11:00 PM
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I find it hard to say anything smarter than Pete said or to say it better. It is somewhere between difficult and impossible to do what you have stated as your goals. Without decent paying "day jobs" or retirement checks (or other sources of funds) most small farmers are not profitable enterprises.
I live in cattle growing country. Most small operators have to subsidize their cattle businesses. The more intellectually blessed realize that farming and ranching is a lifestyle for small operators and not a profitible buisness arrangement in many instances.
Apparently you know how to "do the math" so don't shirk close analysis and don't gloss over expenses like "a car to get from A to B." You need to work up a detailed budget analysis of all the $ it takes to pay for EVERYTHING for, say, 10 years (at least 5.) Insurance of all kinds, clothing, housing, taxes, and on and on and on... You realy need to get detailed in your estimate of EVERYTHING you spend. This includes fast food, $ for allowances for kids, EVERYTHING! If it doesn't add up to more than you expected you either missed a lot or live like hermits.
When you have included every imaginable expence including Girl Scout cookies, Haloween candy, and such... then work up an income estimate of equal detail and show where it is all going to come from. Don't let yourself off the hook with generalizations and wishful thinking. Be specific. You have mentioned how you like to estimate slightly pessimistically so as to try to be more realistic. That is a good start but you need to expand on it considerably. This can be a VERY sobering exercise if you do it honestly and in great detail.
Odds are if you do this unemotionally, in fine detail, with no unbacked claims introduced by wishful thinking you will NOT find a way to show a profit in the first 5 years (and probably not the first 10 or 20 either.) The IRS will NOT wait that patiently.
Banks don't like to make meaningful sized loans based on your enthusiasm and desires. If your outgoes are reasonably likely to be bigger than your incomes for any reasonably protracted period then you are NOT a good candidate for a loan. Ag loans are useful to level out cyclic income or to capitalize a venture that can throw off enough profit to reduce the payback risk.
Again, Pete told it like it is! A bank wants to be sure that at any given instant over the life of the loan that if for any reason you didn't make your payments that there would be enough assets such that when liqidated for xx cents on the dollar at auction, they would not lose capital.
I hope you find a way to do what you want to do, even if the kids have to have paper routes and you both have to have day jobs.
I really do wish you the best of luck. No one here wants to prevent your success in any manner. The kindest thing we can do is try to help you find out what the "REALITY" is in your situation before you leap off the high place with a home made bungee cord that is longer than the height of your jump.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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wingnut
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Pat]
05/02/05 01:28 PM
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Good information, Pat!
Michelle, we may sound pretty pessimistic, but we also may have very good reason to be. My aunt and uncle tried to make a living with mixed farming in north central Alberta. They understood it was a lifestyle and not a way to become rich, and still ... when it came down to it .... my aunt dies of a heart attack, because the welfare money she was getting for medication ... she spent on groceries instead. My uncle still lives on the land, but it's not being farmed ... he's just getting by on his pension (the Canadian equivalent to Social Security). I've known several successful farmers - one was an elderly gent who happened to be the father of a brother-in-law's wife. He was farming a section of grainland with equipment that he'd paid for a long time back, and spent time and money maintaining. Because he didn't feel the need to grow every year, he wasn't at the bank every day with a new scheme to get bigger (more land, bigger equipment). He was also the only farmer in the area with money in the bank (and lots of it). My step-brother is also quite successful - raises cattle in northern Alberta. He's also resisted the urge to keep getting bigger and keep upgrading his equipment, and - consequently - he has money that would have otherwise gone to servicing loans. In both cases, of course, these two worked a whole lot of years to get to where they are today .. 35 years in the case of my step-brother ... with a lot of dry and tough years.
I'll echo what Pat said ... as long as you're upfront with your budget, it is doable ... but you need that "reality bites" look. Wishful thinking and "windfall" attitudes will sink you faster than a stone. My brother is trying to turn long-haul trucking into a career and I really worry about his future. He doesn't understand the concept of owner/operator at all ... thinking that by just turning his rig in every three years (at the end of the lease period) will keep him in new trucks and he won't have to worry about repairs because it'll all be warranty. This leads him to believe that a good month - with extra money left after loan and operating costs ... is a windfall. He seems to forget that he needs to have a cushion in case something happens (that warranty will fix the truck, but only miles hauled provide a paycheck ...) ... and he seems to forget that small fortune he owes our mother - who keeps bailing him out (sadly ... for any chance he'll ever mature).
Everything costs, in this day and age, and only very good accounting habits give you any chance - of staying ahead of the bills, of getting operating loans, of keeping ahead of the IRS, of being ready for vet bills, etc.
Unfortunately, it's not as easy as it used to be. "Used to was" (as we'd say in the day) you could count on your neighbors to come over for a barn raising, take care of your stock or crop if you were indisposed, bring over chicken soup if you had a cold, help you out at harvest (and, of course, expect the same from you should the roles be reversed). Today, however, you can only truly count on yourself ....
Again ... the very best of luck with your activities, and we all do wish you every hope of success!
pete
it's a shame that common sense isn't
http://www.dahlhausminiatures.com
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Pat
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: wingnut]
05/05/05 09:25 PM
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This afternoon I rode along with a friend/neighbor on a 100 mile round trip where he saved about 100 dollars on ag chemicals. The time was recreational as we had a chance to chat but with diesel at $2.19/gal for a 1 ton flatbed (15 MPG) this was not all gravy. Anyway I asked him if he knew of any small farmer in the area (this guy was born and raised here and knows everyone) that, on average, was operating in the black with no support from outside (non-agricultural) income.
--- Nope ----
Some do better than others but everyone we know either has a job or retirement ncome, or investments, or other sources of income to finance their agricultural interests. Some folks go on cruises, some buy expensive new cars, and some eat out a lot, all expensive endeavors. Alternatively you can put the money into your agricultural "lifestyle" if you can aford it.
My friend is probably the most enlightened and progressive cattleman in the immediate area, has about 400 acres and 50 head of mostly black angus but still has to subsidize his cattle operation with his retirement check. He allows as how IF he were totally debt free and had no interest payments to anyone he would run at about an approximate breakeven (most of the time.) If he didn't have health coverage in his retirement then breakeven would be out of reach. This man is frugal as well as intelligent. He lives in a portion of his shop building and has no frilly clothes or new vehicles. He works about 60-80 hrs a week.
If he can't do any better then I hold no illusions as to what I can do on 160 acres so I will try to keep the ag ops from bankrupting me and enjoy the LIFE STYLE.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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DUMBDOG
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Pat]
05/06/05 01:02 AM
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After reading this post several weeks ago. it was my opinion that there was a lot of wishful thinking going on apart from the realities of the real world.
I grew up on a 320 acre farm, my folks raised seven kids. We never had any extra money, but we never went hungry and always had clean clothes. When my Mother passed away seven years ago, the seven of us ended up with the land and a house in town where my mother lived where she moved when she retired from farming after several years of running the farm after my Dad died.
My whole point of this is that I am agreeing with the others that there is no money in farming, when you are done you are lucky to have what my folks had and that does not take into account the need of good health insurance so you do not lose the farm, no pun intended. Not much has changed in farming, since the sixties, when my family farmed, other than the operating expenses and the ability to produce more from a given area of land. The prices of raised goods have not gone up that much, which a trip to the grocery store will prove, the portion given to the farmer is quite small and most of the meat is not raised the way it used to be, but in like factory type settings.
To answer the question of why do I farm. it is because I can afford to. My rental properties pay for our living expenses and my day trading pays for the farming. Someday when I truly retire, when the equipment and land are sold, there will be a profit on paper, but it will not take into account the countless hours of soil preparation, planting, weeding, picking and the seven days a week selling at the farmers market.
My wife and I have been on the cruises, taken the trips with the motorhome and the Harley, but there was always something missing. Even though it is only 46 acres of which 40 is garden, it is highly intensive farming, which takes us both back to our roots. It is truly a labor of love, to produce something that people need and not just want.
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egon
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: DUMBDOG]
05/06/05 05:52 AM
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It is truly a labor of love, to produce something that people need and not just want.
A comment worthy of note!
Egon
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egon
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Pat]
05/06/05 05:58 AM
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Be carefull Pat. Once that plantin starts it may become addictive!
Many times I wonder about the assuredness of inexpensive food supplies we all seem to take for granted.
Egon 
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Pat
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: egon]
05/07/05 08:42 PM
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Egon, If there were a serious glitch anywhere in the chain of operations and processes required to produce food and get it to the consumer, chaos would result, anarchy would rapidly follow with a complete breakdown of the social order. Hoards of city folks with no meaningful food source beyond pets and canabalism would go to the countryside to forage and take by force if need be what they can find. It would not be a pretty picture.
There are many urbanites who have the mistaken idea that in case of natural disaster, widespread terrorist acts, war, or whatever that they with a few friends and plenty of guns and ammo will go out in the countryside or mountains or wherever and somehow "magically" survive. This falacious belief is of epic proportion among many gen x types but certainly is not limited to them.
These are the same people that you can't give food to like pears, vegies or whatever if it isn't made into a ready to serve dish, pie or whatever. They won't eat anything that doesn't come wrapped in plastic from a store.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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mysticokra
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: Pat]
05/20/05 11:00 AM
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Just a note for later thought. "Land Use" and "Land Ownership" are two different things. You can often acquire land use for less than the interest costs of a loan to buy it. Raising cattle on rented land allows you to build an income producing business than can be liquidated fairly easily. You may wish to read Gordon Hazard's book "Thoughts and Advice from an Old Cattleman". Just be aware that he is focused on selling to the wholesale market. You could find a lot more margin in selling to the end customer via restaurants or a private client group.
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CharlieTR
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Re: How to finance becoming a farmer?
[re: qtkitty]
06/16/06 08:21 AM
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Were you able to find more info on FSA Laons?
From what I remember a few years ago when I looked into it...
They have the following requirements.
(Note: They don't actually make the loan, they only garentee the loan and insure low interest rates). (1) They wanted the applicant to have a solid education in farming, ranching, forrestry, etc. (2) You must have had one profittable year. (That's hard if you haven't started yet!) (3) You must have good credit, but not able to acquire a loan by traditional means. (?). Those are the big items I remember. I think I read in the USDA/FSA news letter I get from my county, that they just issued the first FSA new farmer loan in that county's history. So they must be very rare indeed.
Good Luck, and never give up!
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