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Pat
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Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earned
12/06/04 09:18 AM
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All of us here have a certain attraction for traditional stuff but unfortunately we often fail to rightly discern the difference between the traditional ways that are good and the ways that are best left in the past. We look for ways to make more money while not getting good value with what we have.
Few people are into life cycle accounting/costing. When comparing alternative purchases, do you really compare bottom lines or just initial cost? Many people make the error of thinking the cheapest product that meets their minimum needs is the "smart buy." Could be but often isn't.
Lifecycle cost includes: initial cost + cost to maintain over its useful life + operating cost + "well you get the idea." Lets take a simple illustrative example, choosing between two competing styles of light bulb for a table lamp.
Lets look at the real price of lighting. One type of lamp is a traditional tungsten filament incandescent lamp and another is a CFL (Compact Fluorescent Lamp.)
Initial costs (without labor): The incandescent costs say $1.00 and it takes 10 of them to last as long as a CFL so that is $10.
Lets say the CFL costs $15. Using the same cost per kilowatt for both lamps... each incandescent uses $8 worth of electricity over its life so that is $80 worth of electricity. So for incandescent you have $80 + $10 = $90. That is $90 to supply bulbs and electricity to give light equal to just one CFL but what is the total cost of buying and operating the CFL?
It cost $15 and uses $21.60 in electricity over its life so that is $36.60 so clearly it is the SMART CHOICE. You save $68.40 over the life of the CFL compared to using the traditional incandescent. Any incandescent light that gets 3 or more hours run time a day on average is a good candidate for replacement with a CFL in most cases.
This same approach is good for many purchase decisions. On the surface of the issue, when you are at Wally world to pick up a light bulb, you see the bulb you want for $1.00 so why would you pay $15??? Because it makes you a net profit of $68.40 and that is a good thing. How many of us would have saved $14? Buy the dollar bulb instead of the 15 dollar bulb and save 14 dollars???????? Many of us "SAVE" money making the same sort of decisions, over and over again, thinking if it does the job and is cheaper so it is the best choice.
Life cycle cost analysis should be a standard tool in your finance toolbox. You don't want to be stepping over the dollars in your haste to pick up the dimes!
Note: The prices of bulbs in the example above were fictitious but reasonable. If you do the math using actual lamp costs and electrical rates in your area, you will get similar results. I know of few incandescent lamp usages in the 15 to 100 watt range that if used on average of 3 or more hours a day couldn't be advantageoulsy replaced by a CFL except in certain extreme applications. Extreme applications are such things as as oven lights. CFL don't put out much waste heat and so are poor for incubators. There are now CFL that work good in the cold but you have to check the specs.
 Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Bird
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earned
[re: Pat]
12/06/04 01:17 PM
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Interesting timing for your example; I just got back from the store and one of the things I bought was a light bulb.  I've replaced most of the bulbs in the house with the CFL bulbs, but what I needed today was a bulb for one of these 3-way lamps, so I bought the regular 50/100/150 bulb (the higher priced one of what they had). So my question is . . . can you use the CFL bulbs in the 3-way lamps?
And back to the original topic . . . I agree and try to do just as you said. Sometimes the cheap item is best; sometimes it ain't. 
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egon
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: Pat]
12/06/04 03:48 PM
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All that computation gets me confused. Just go to bed when it gets dark.
Egon 
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Pat
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: Bird]
12/06/04 09:24 PM
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Bird, I bought some CFL made as 3-way bulbs. Don't recall where for sure but it was either Lowe's or Home Depot. I wouldn't be surprised if Wally World had them as they are carrying a good selection of CFL now.
I saw a similar analysis of the cost of ammunition. It doesn't take that long at all to justify a good quality loading setup if you discount your labor and think of it as a hobby not a chore. The analysis was for a Dillon setup, about as good as it gets. Of course this assumes you actually shoot a fair number of rounds and aren't like Egon who goes to bed when he runs out of ammo.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Bird
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: Pat]
12/07/04 05:53 AM
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In reply to:
some CFL made as 3-way bulbs
Should have known they existed, but since I'd never heard of such, I didn't think to look for them yesterday. 
As for the ammunition, I don't have to worry about that. I fired 50 rounds of .38 ammo to qualify this summer so I can legally carry a handgun if I should ever want to, which is unlikely. And other than two rounds at a coyote 3 or 4 years ago, that's all the shooting I've done in the past 16 years with a handgun. I did probably shoot 8 or 10 rounds with a .20 gauge in the last 10 years; one to kill a snake and the rest to scare the crows out of my garden. So life cycle cost analysis on reloading equipment was really easy.
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egon
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: Pat]
12/07/04 06:13 AM
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I may have misled you a little Pat. One can stay up after dark to procure meat for the pot. The reloading helps little as only a small rimfire rifle and a shot placed between the reflectors is required.
Bird's got me beat on shots fired over the last number of years. Think the last time I fired a shotgun was in the mid 70's. It did produce a Canada Goose. And Ya; I got to pluck and clean it.
Egon
Edited by egon (12/07/04 06:14 AM)
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Pat
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: Bird]
12/07/04 08:41 AM
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Bird, Right on brother! You couldn't justify even a used Lee Loader if you already had the hammer to pound on it with.
In the past I have done some lifecycle cost analysis trying to justify a new car based on gas savings and minor maint. Of course that was when gasoline was under $1/gal. In many of the scenarios even if the new car ran on wishful thinking and didn't use gas the old car was still a better financial situation.
Now with gas that hits $2 sometimes and could go higher, AND needing to get another or new car we went through all sorts of research and tradeoffs on capabilities, costs, repair records, brand histories, and on and on.
We are approaching 6000 miles on our Toyota Prius. Best tank was 506 miles on less than 10 gal in mixed driving (52.x MPG) but cold weather and short trips can knock us down to (when my wife drives) the 30's and (when I drive) the 40's. We really do like this car. It is powerful enough to merge and pass safely (the electric motor's assistance is great) it has fold down rear seats and a lift back with no barrier to lift cargo over. Will hold lots of stuff on a shopping expedition or set up the seats and cart 4 large adults in comfort (rated for 5 but that might mean 5 regular size folks.)
It will take a while to justify the approx $1800 premium for the Hybrid technology but we keep cars a long time, as long as they satisfy the following criteria in priority order.
1. Safe to drive
2. Reliable transportation
3. Economical to operate/maintain
and a distant 4th
4. Not so shabby as to be embarassing to be seen in
This approach to automobiles and lots of other things (but clearly not house building, in my case) is a relatively sound financial planning tool.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Bird
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: Pat]
12/07/04 10:47 AM
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Pat, my #4 for cars is "comfortable" instead of "so shabby as to be embarrassing". And no matter whether a car or pickup is new or used, I suspect very few folks know what it actually costs them to operate one. In fact, it's scary when you look at total costs. I sold my pickup several months ago and now I want a pickup, but haven't bought one and don't know whether I will because I know we wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost.
Of course, you'll never know exactly what a vehicle costs until you get rid of it and see what the salvage value was, if any, but we have a 2001 Ford Windstar that we bought 2 years old with 27k miles one it, and paid about half what a new one like it would have cost, and we both like it. And it has averaged 19.6 mpg on gas. Even so, if I assumed I could get Kelly Blue Book trade-in value for it, it has cost us $.58 a mile or $597 a month for the past 2 years.  Of course, as we keep it longer and rack up more miles, that will come down some (we hope), but how much driving do you think most people would do it they thjought each time they got in the car about having to put $.58 in the kitty for every mile they drive? 
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DocHeb
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earned
[re: Pat]
12/07/04 02:17 PM
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Can't use CFL's with dimmer circuits nor photocells. That eliminates most of my room lighting and my porch lights.
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Pat
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: Bird]
12/07/04 10:12 PM
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Bird, I think you missed a nuance of my criteria for KEEPING a vehicle, comment. Comfort is important to me, but that, for me, is a criteria for initial selection. I was listing criteria for keeping a vehicle. You may safely assume ALL the vehicles I have meet my comfort criteria but when to dispose of them is essentially based on the listed criteria. Mostly comfort doesn't deteriorate all that much if you come anywhere close to keeping up with up with maint.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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Pat
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Re: Is conservation income? penny saved=penny earn
[re: DocHeb]
12/07/04 10:45 PM
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Chris (AKA DOCHEB), I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you as to availability of dimming CFL and usabilty of CFL with photocells.
"Traditionally" dimming fluorescents required special dimming ballasts and were quite expensive. Do you have a Lowe's store near you?
Here is one solution: Lowes sells a retrofit kit that lets you put a small fluorescent lamp into an architectural down light (ceiling can) AND it is dimable with a standard electronic dimmer just like you would use with an incandescent bulb. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to use it in other ways. They have me interested but at $40 each, I'm not buying bunches and bunches.
I am rewiring chandeliers for bank switching so that I can light them in stages, a simple alternative to dimming, not so perfectly analog but rather discrete. This is because the larger of the three great room chandeliers was made for 25 each 25 watt bulbs and I intend to lamp it with either 4 Watt or 7 Watt fluorescents (or both) and bank switch them. The 4 watt gives the light of a 15 watt incancescent and the 7 is the equivalent of a 25.
Many of the photo cells (photo controllers) are not listed for service with fluorescent lights. This used to be much more common than now. The problem for those interested in the "why" is that fluorescent bulbs use magnetic ballasts which wreak havoc on cheap attempts to switch them on and off, especially off as they represent an inductive load with a resulting inductive "kickback", a voltage spike that damages the cheap simple circuits that work fine with the resistive load of the incandescent filament type lamp. For a little more $ you can buy photo controllers that are designed to handle fluorescent lights.
I have installed fluorescent porch lights on my mom's last 3 houses, two on this one. They come ready to hang with built in photocell and a 4 pin U tube fluorescent lamp (13 watt if I recall about equivalent to 60-75 watts.)
Alternatively go to Lowe's or Home Depot and buy a photocontrol module designed to be able to handle fluorescent lamps. The better ones say so on the package. There are several to choose from.
I have seen cheapie units that screws into a medium base socket and then accept an incandescent bulb that work on incandescent only but there are lots of "FLUORESCENT APPOVED" photocontrollers available. They may require a little thought in mounting them but are dead simple to wire up. Just put them in series with the switched power going to the lamp.
I haven't researched to find small dimming fluorescents, just serendipity that I saw the retrofit kit at Lowe's.
OK... I just did a Google on dimming CFL and got a plethora of hits. Here is a good one:
http://www.buildinggreen.com/products/dimmable.cfm
Title of piece: Dimmable CFL from Philips
Tried again... (next morning) liked this:
http://www.nolico.com/saveenergy/dimmable_lamps.htm
From their page:
"Our Dimmable Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs are compatible with most standard timer, motion detector, photocell sensor, and dimming circuits. With these bulbs, there is no need to purchase expensive "Fluorescent Compatible" timers, motion detectors, photocell sensors or dimmers. These will work with products which indicate that they are for incandescent only. They have a dimming range from 100% to 20% with no flicker or hum! The wait is over for high quality dimmable CFLs, and we have them at the best price!"
It is even better than I knew!
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (12/08/04 09:51 AM)
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