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MossRoad
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Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
10/13/03 07:40 PM
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When we first got married, our first house cost $20,000.00. All I remember is we had to pay 3 points to get the loan down to 12.5%!  We borrowed $18,000.00. If we would have payed it off over 30 years, we would have paid a total of $68,000.00 for a $20,000.00 house!
Needless to say, we paid it off very fast. Our 2nd house was also very inexpensive, so again, paid off very fast. Same thing when we bought our land. We are very fortunate that the cost of living in Northern Indiana is dirt cheap, thank goodness.
Now we are considering building a new home. Are there any advantages to paying a mortgage slowly VS paying off the house as fast as possible?
One thing I have heard is taxes. I know you can deduct the interest from the taxes, but on our last three mortgages, the interest never exceeded our standard deductions. We itemized several years in a row and the closest we ever came was $14.00 less than the standard deduction. It wasn't worth the aggravation keeping the books and all that work and we came up short of the giveaway. 
Another thing I have heard is interest rates. If you can put the money to work and make more in interest than the mortgage costs you, you should do it because you are using someone else's money to work for you. If this is possible, it sounds too good to be true. Is it?
So, can someone explain to me in simple terms any advantage to having a mortgage VS paying it off as fast as possible. I would really appreciate it. Also, any links to good reading on this subject, or book suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks.
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DUMBDOG
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
10/13/03 11:29 PM
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The only thing that I can tell you about taxes is that it is best to pay as little as possible, but why spend money on something so that you save a portion on it in taxes?
For example, you pay 16,000 per year in interest, another 2,000 in real estate taxes and another 2,000 in other deductions. Also assume that the standard deduction is 6,000 and you are in the 30 percent tax bracket. Your net deduction of interest over the standard deduction 14,000 and you saved 4200 in income taxes, but it cost you 16,000 to do it.
Any investment that the average person can get into that yields more than the mortgage interest rate is going to have risk. Pay of the house first, then you can afford the risk.
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EJB
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
10/14/03 08:37 AM
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>>Another thing I have heard is interest rates. If you can put the money to work and make more in interest than the mortgage costs you, you should do it because you are using someone else's money to work for you. If this is possible, it sounds too good to be true. Is it?
If somehow you could magically GUARANTEE that the money that you don't use to pay off your mortgage, can be invested in a *100% risk free* in a product that provides higher returns than the mortgage rate, than by all means take a mortgage and invest your "cash" and make money on the spread. (difference between what you are making on your investment, versus what you are paying on your loan).
I will submit to you that right now there is *NO* product that can give you a 100% risk free, guaranteed rate of return that will pay more than a typical fixed rate mortgage....so my advice, now and always (to everyone), is don't use a mortgage unless you have to. and if you have to, pay it off as fast as you possibly can.
Sounds like you have already been "mortgage free" at least a few times in your life already, so you know what a good feeling it is. I am have been mortgage fee for about 3 years...it is a very, very nice feeling. 
As far as the tax advantage of having a mortgage, that is a ludicrous claim...if someone can argue that a reason to have a mortgage is to get the tax deduction, then by extension, it would make even more sense to get a mortgage with the highest interest rate possible so that you can pay the most in interest, and get an even bigger tax deduction...that doesn't make any sense at all does it?
Avoid the mortgage, or pay it off as soon as you can...you'll be glad you did.
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tenebrous
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
10/14/03 09:17 AM
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If you do not need a mortgage then there is no advantage in having one with a few exceptions.
If you need to have a sum of money from time to time say the cost of a new tractor then a home equity line works well. The interest is deductible and usually lower in rate than any other loan. Just don't over use it just because it is there.
If you are able to invest the money at a higher return then it makes sense to have the mortgage. As already said there are always risks. The conventional mortgage is expensive to start out while a equity line can be free of any charges.
I used the line of credit on my previous home to build our new home. We did not want to be tried to a monthly payment. There was an equity line set up on our new home as soon as the bank would let us. I used that to buy equipment needed for the new house and a new van. We pay as much as we can each month and will pay it off as soon as possible.
Now in business it is another story. Leverage is very important and having mortgages on your business property allows you to control more and hopefully make more money. An example would be if you had 100k to invest in rental property, you could just buy one 100k property and collect the rent. Then again you could leverage and buy ten properties at 100k each and carry mortgages of 90%. That would give you control of ten times the property. If the rents are used just to carry the expenses you are much farther ahead as the tenants pay the mortgages and your equity grows.
The bottom line is if you do have a mortgage what are you going to do with the money.
I have an old friend that built a new house and took out a mortgage. He invested in the stock market and lost half his equity. He still has the mortgage and now has the remainder of his money in CD accounts earning far less than he pays every month in mortgage interest. His net worth decreases every month. Not what you or anyone needs to do.
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RobS
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
10/14/03 10:41 AM
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The main reason for any mortgage is to buy more house than you could afford with cash. If you can pay cash then you are most probably better off without a mortgage. The exception is where your cash is better served in a higher paying instrument of some sort.
The tax/interest deduction comes in to play once you've decided to go the mortgage route. Deductions and homestead exemptions are all ways to get even more out of your borrowed money (or borrow less money).
Of course, then there's the whole question of what kind of mortgage. I'm a little rusty on the subject but there's probably a "Mortgage for Dummies" book out there
So does all this mean you're close to building 
Rob
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Boondox
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
10/14/03 01:39 PM
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We own our 160 year old farmhouse. Heck, it was built by the Wife's relatives! But recently we considered taking out a mortgage on this property in order to purchase outright another in a less "civilized" part of Vermont. Part occupied by real people, in other words. The idea was to rent out our existing farmhouse and cottage, using the rental income to pay off the mortgage.
Used that way, a mortgage might be sensible. But in the end we decided being landlords was not something we excelled at, and we stayed put.
Pete
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MossRoad
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: RobS]
10/14/03 04:43 PM
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So does all this mean you're close to building
I think so. Time is right. Kids are out of day care so that means we can afford a mortgage(think I'm joking? Newborns cost $160.00 per week and you supply the diapers and food). Our two kids were $220 per week! That's $880 per month and that = a pretty nice chunk of house payment!
So, we will be talking to builder very soon and see which ones give us the warm fuzzy feelings.
As for the mortgage thing... YIKES!!! I'm the world's biggest tightwad and don't want to cough up any interest to any one. 
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farmerpsv
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
10/23/03 07:34 PM
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Mossroad,
the real trick on the mortgage thingy is how it's set up. the interest that you pay is loaded on the front end. for example, say your payment is $500/month, when you look at a 30 year amortization schedule you'll find that at the front end of the loan payments, the money is going hugely to interest and very little to principle. if you go to re sell in 3 or 4 years you'll find you've not made a great deal of progress on paying for the house itself. during the last several years this fact tends to be hidden because property values have increased, so when you sell, you still make money.
i don't believe a mortgage is a good deal ever if i can avoid it, but if for some starting out it can sometimes be hard to avoid. a few things you can do: go for a 15 or 20 year mortgage insted of 30. that's 10 years of interest you are saving. many can't deal with 15 years, but 20 is fairly do-able. go conventional instead of fha. one requires pmi insurance the other mip. when i last checked (things may have changed) the insurance on an fha loan can be financed into the loan (nifty, 30years interest on insurance!), but then you also add about half a percent on to your monthly interest as a premium. coventional is more expensive up front but doesn't add a monthly premium in the form of that half percent. also once you have 20% equity in the home, the conventional loan no longer requires the insurance, the fha lasts 30 years (again, last i checked).
the best trick i've found is pre-payment. most people have heard of adding money to a payment, but don't really understand why it's beneficial. the fastest way to pre-pay is when you initiate the loan. lets say you have 10k to put down on a 30 year 100k loan but are only required to put 5k down. rather than putting the 10k down and financing 90k, you put 5k down and finance 95k, but after signing the paperwork for your 95k loan, you immediately make a principle payment of 5k. this will make it as though you've been paying on the mortgage for about 5 years (check your amortization printout, it's very enlightening). if you figure your p & i payments are say $700, with an average of $650 of that being interest the first 5 years of the loan , that would mean you just saved $39,000 in interest with that simple maneuver. it'll drive your banker nuts hope this helps
paul
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MossRoad
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: farmerpsv]
10/23/03 08:39 PM
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Yeah, the amortization table is a real eye opener. On our first house the payments were about $250 per month for 30 years. That's 250 X 12 for a total of $3000.00 per year. Then you take 3000 X 30 and you get $90,000.00 On a $18,000.00 loan!!! YEOWY ZOWIE!!!
We always made double payments, so $500.00 per month X 12 months = $6000.00 per year. It payed of the house in 5 years! 5 X 6000 still = $30,000 for an $18,000.00 loan, but it sure beats $90,000.00.
The first $250 went towards the interest and the second 250 went towards the principle. That first extra $250.00 knocked of 29 payments at the end of the loan. 29 X 250 = $7250.00 that we did not have to pay on the loan. We were amazed. Had someone not told us about that we might never have known. The bank sure isn't going to tell you that stuff. I remember that I use to take the amortization table and cross that priniciple off every month. It was great fun.
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R_cannon
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
11/04/03 11:58 AM
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I have an Excel spreadsheet that you can put in an accelerated payment every month. Shows you everything.
If anybody wants it PM me with your email addy.
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greedyb
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
10/28/05 09:09 AM
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In my research it is always a better option to pay it off as fast as possible; even with a mortgage your best bet is to pay the house off as soon as you can. Just like in your previous house purchases the interest would still be making you pay more than just paying what ever you can when you can to get it paid of faster.
Everything you need to know before for your mortgage
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Cedar
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: greedyb]
10/28/05 07:07 PM
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With that said. . . . . Should one then pay down the mortgage as quick as possible or sink that extra money into a tax deferred supplemental retirement fund? I suppose it depends on the interest rate that you have on your home loan. Comments?
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BlueRidge
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
12/13/05 05:28 PM
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The best investment is to be debt free. Always.
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Pat
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: Cedar]
12/14/05 10:10 AM
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It depends.
You need to do some net present value calculations to compare the cost of paying down to not paying down versus other opportunities for placing your money. When home mortages were much higher rate it was tough to find safe investments to compete with buying down your mortgage. Folks who consistently did better than buying down a mortage were either psychic, very lucky, or maybe were into insider trading (sorry Martha.)
With lower mortgage rates and the current investment climate, I'm not sure buying down your mortgage will compete well with say a decent REIT (Real Estate Investment Trust) as an alternative investment but the mortgage is essentially backed by your real estate value. When you get 'er payed off it needs to have enough intrinsic value to have made it a good investment. A REIT won't have a guaranteed income but you should be able to get your money back as a typical worst case. What little experiences I have had over the past decades with REIT is very positive.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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stumpfield
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: Pat]
01/03/06 07:24 PM
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There a scenario that you might be able to take advange of a mortgage to save a few $$ and still be relatively risk free. This probably the only situation where a mortgage actually have an advantage.
If you are in a high income tax bracket (for example: 35% Fed & 10% state):
You take a $100,000 mortgage and pay 6% interest. Your annual interest cost is $6,000 (simple interest for the sake of this illustration) It costs you $6,000 per year.
You can recover that cost and a little extra by the following:
Take the deduction and save $6,000 * 45% = $2,700.
Invest the $100,000 in a tax free "insured" municipal bond that pays say 4% interest. $100,000 * 4% = 4,000
You will be $700 ahead. Of course, this assumes your tax rate doesn't change and you hold on to the bond for the next 30 years.
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Richard
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: stumpfield]
02/03/06 01:51 PM
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I'm not going to delve into much of the book but I'm in the middle of reading "Missed Fortune" by Douglas R. Andrew Missed Fortune website
I'm not affiliated with them.
A quick lowdown of what I've read so far...
Maximize !!! your mortgage, take the deduction. If you have built up equity, take it OUT
Put your equity into a Equity Indexed whole life policy. You can get immediate coverage that will exceed your mortgage (so immediate payoff if you pass away), you can get cash build up that later in life you can access tax free...
(again, I'm not pimping the idea, I'm just reading the book to better understand it)
He contends that (for example), he who OWNS his home free & clear is at more risk than he who has an 80% mortgage on it.
Example: Katrina. Take 2 $300K houses. Katrina blew them away. The guy who had his house fully paid for has lost everything. Yes we have insurance yada yada... BUT he's still fighting that fight probably.
Now the other guy who owned the house next door, also valued at $300K BUT had drawn 200K of his equity OUT and placed into an investment grade vehicle, not only still has access to that cash via equity value (unlike the first guy), he also probably also has insurance.
My (butchered) point that he's trying to say is by keeping the equity OUT of your house and under YOUR control, you can over time, substantially increase your liquidy AND net worth.
Example 2 and then I'm done (cause again, I'm not preaching FOR him, just trying to shake the thinking a bit)
#2 You own your house free & clear. It's worth $200,000. Markets go up 5% over next year. Your new net worth is now $210,000 fair?
Ok, what if you took $100K of that equity out and put it into an investment grade vehicle (which I'm now finding out is a equity indexed whole life policy).
Market goes up, your house STILL appraises for $210,000 right? so no change there. The house has no idea if you hav a mortgage on it, nor how much.
The $100K you withdrew & reinvested however, is now worth $105K.
So you add these back and your net GAIN, is $15,000 and not $10,000.
Before someone points out what might be obvious... he does clearly indicate you want to put your money into something that has ZERO downside risk so if the market DOES tank out, you won't be damaged.
Ok, disclaimer again, I'm not pimping the idea, nor them. I'm not affilated in any way.
I am simply reading the book and I must admit, it is really shaking some of the traditional concepts I'd had (ie, pay house off early)
It's FULL of examples and frankly, is easy/interesting reading.
I'm suggesting that if anyone cares about their financial future, go ahead & spend the $25 on the book and read it. Make up your own mind if some of the examples make sense. I didn't think I'd be swayed and I'm STILL going to look for some numbers to back the logic.
I'm about 1/2 way through the book and as boring as the book might sound, I can't wait to get back into reading it to see the rest of the ideas.
It's a VERY interesting book. Get it!
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twstanley
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: Richard]
02/03/06 03:40 PM
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I am trying to think of anything that has zero risk but produces a 5 percent return per year....
The other side of his equation is, mortgate that 100,00 house fully, then the real estate market drops 25 percent for that property, then you owe $100,000 on a property worth $75,000.
If you invested that 100,000 in something that turns out to have a bit more than zero risk, and that turns south, you now are out that 100,000 and still owe 100,000 on a property worth 75,000.
Where as the guy next door who paid off his propery now sits in a mortgage free house riding out he current fall in real estate values ( and apparently a recession as your investment tanked as well ).
Personally, debt free is my goal in life, I am slowly working my way there. The less you owe on your house, car, whatever, the less chance of losing it if you have a shortfall in income due to illness, job loss, whatever.
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: twstanley]
02/04/06 03:02 AM
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ingdirect.com has some interesting CD rates, 4.4% for a 12 mo, 4.8% for a 60mo. In my estimation, you'd be better off with a 12mo deal as rates are going up.
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stumpfield
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: Richard]
02/08/06 09:57 AM
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Here's my 2 cents....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Example: Katrina. Take 2 $300K houses. Katrina blew them away. The guy who had his house fully paid for has lost everything. Yes we have insurance yada yada... BUT he's still fighting that fight probably.
Now the other guy who owned the house next door, also valued at $300K BUT had drawn 200K of his equity OUT and placed into an investment grade vehicle, not only still has access to that cash via equity value (unlike the first guy), he also probably also has insurance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Taking equity OUT of your house does not eliminate or reduce your risk of Katrina. YOU still own the bank $200k and have to continue making payments even the house is no longer there. If your payment is greater than the return of your investment (which always the case unless you are taking greater risk and the market condition is in your favor).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My (butchered) point that he's trying to say is by keeping the equity OUT of your house and under YOUR control, you can over time, substantially increase your liquidy AND net worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It may increase your liquidity but NOT neccessary net worth. You are taking additional risk. It could increase or decrease depending on your luck. For zero risk, you are garantee to decrease your net worth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
#2 You own your house free & clear. It's worth $200,000. Markets go up 5% over next year. Your new net worth is now $210,000 fair?
Ok, what if you took $100K of that equity out and put it into an investment grade vehicle (which I'm now finding out is a equity indexed whole life policy).
Market goes up, your house STILL appraises for $210,000 right? so no change there. The house has no idea if you hav a mortgage on it, nor how much.
The $100K you withdrew & reinvested however, is now worth $105K.
So you add these back and your net GAIN, is $15,000 and not $10,000.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are making a BIG assumption here. "equity indexed whole life policy" does not garantee you don't lose money. Your $100,000 can go to zero. There's something called "credit risk". The company wrote the policy can go south. Your policy will worth nothing regardless of it's book value. This is just another form of annuities. It garantees a certain return as long as everything works out well for the company.
The book simply gave you an investment idea that may work to your advantage under normal circumstances. The author should at least point out there's a downsize to this idea.
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egon
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: stumpfield]
02/08/06 11:38 AM
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This house financing example has me really confused. I'm just not good at math!
No way can I get those quoted numbers to add up. It seems there is an unaccounted 100K there somewhere which I can't seem to find. 
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: egon]
02/11/06 08:13 PM
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Egon, Don't bother looking for the 100K. I found it and spent it on my house.
The numerical analog to illiterate is innumerate. Are you claiming innumeracy?
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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egon
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: Pat]
02/12/06 05:28 AM
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Uhh - not quite sure what you are talking about but now I'm really confused Still can't figure out how you got the 100K when it didn't seem to exist and then the descriptions have me reaching for explanations I can't comprehend??
Egon
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Pat
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: egon]
02/12/06 09:02 AM
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Egon, It is a bit like my experience/use of square radians. In working problems in Physics some calculations ended up with various units including some square radians (which we just discarded/ignored.) Other problems would have you taking the square root of something with no square radians but the answer had to be in radians, SO... I took some of the square radians discarded in a previous problem and recycled them.
This plus the whole idea of the tooth fairy and certain other metaphysical concepts and VOILA it sort of clicks into focus.
Got it now?
For me, a lot of this financial hocus pocus is like having a swarm of bees buzzing around inside my head, but well, there they are!
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Edited by Pat (02/12/06 09:03 AM)
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BlueRidge
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: Pat]
04/19/06 09:52 AM
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Put your equity into a Equity Indexed whole life policy.
The only people recommending whole life as an investment are:
1: People selling whole life.
2: People selling books to gullible people.
3: Sophisticated investment advisors who know that in some RARE situations rolling an IRA into a whole life policy can have some tax advantages.
Hmmm. People in category 3 are ALSO in category 1...
Hmmmm.
Whole life is a rip-off. As for the Katrina example.... More idiocy. If your house is properly insured, you don't have a problem. If your house is NOT properly insured, you have to replace it. Where will you get the money? Uh, how about that nice "investment" that you bought with your equity? Did we forget that the mortgage on that original underinsured house STILL has to be paid off?
TANSTAAFL.
Where's the "disgusted" smiley here, anyway?
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BlueRidge
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: MossRoad]
04/19/06 11:08 AM
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One thing I have heard is taxes. I know you can deduct the interest from the taxes,
It's amazing to me how many people don't understand something so simple. Tax deductions reduce the amount of tax you pay. They DON'T put money in your pocket. If you are at a 15% tax rate, and you find a $1,000 deduction, you reduce the tax you owe by 15% of $1,000, or $150. So if you had to spend that $1,000 anyway , and you can deduct it, great. You saved $150. But if you go out and deliberately SPEND $1,000 to get that deduction, you just spent $850 that you didn't need to spend! You paid out $1,000, and got back $150 of it.
Hey, for anybody who thinks that's a good deal, I've got a better one for you. You send ME the $1,000, and I'll send you back HALF of it! That's even better! You pay out $1,000, and get back $500! I'll take as many of those deals as I can find! No limits! Any amount! As often as you want! Call now! Operators are standing by!
Taking deductions on money you have to spend reduces your tax bill. SPENDING money unnecessarily to CREATE deductions makes you poor.
Period.
Another thing I have heard is interest rates. If you can put the money to work and make more in interest than the mortgage costs you, you should do it because you are using someone else's money to work for you. If this is possible, it sounds too good to be true. Is it?
It's too good to be true. No debt is ALWAYS your best investment, no matter what the numbers SEEM to say. A lot of people have gone broke using the "use other people's money" philosophy. A lot of people have gotten rich selling it on tapes and in seminars, though.
So, can someone explain to me in simple terms any advantage to having a mortgage VS paying it off as fast as possible.
There is none. See above. If all goes perfectly, the truth is you CAN sometimes make more money in the short term by investing borrowed money, which is exactly what you are doing when you carry a mortgage and invest your cash. If you borrow at 10% and invest at 12%, you are making 2%. But most investments that will return more than a mortgage are risky investments. And if the economy takes a downturn, the more in debt you are, the more likely you are to lose it ALL. THere is ZERO risk in being debt free.
Over the long haul, those who avoid debt are the safest and richest.
Here's some good reading:
www.daveramsey.com
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stumpfield
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: BlueRidge]
04/24/06 11:58 AM
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#################################
So, can someone explain to me in simple terms any advantage to having a mortgage VS paying it off as fast as possible.
#################################
There is none. See above. If all goes perfectly, the truth is you CAN sometimes make more money in the short term by investing borrowed money, which is exactly what you are doing when you carry a mortgage and invest your cash. If you borrow at 10% and invest at 12%, you are making 2%. But most investments that will return more than a mortgage are risky investments. And if the economy takes a downturn, the more in debt you are, the more likely you are to lose it ALL. THere is ZERO risk in being debt free.
Over the long haul, those who avoid debt are the safest and richest.
#################################
BlueRidge:
You are 99% correct. But if you are already rich (with very high income) then you can take advantage of a mortgage to make more money. This is why the IRS limits the amount of mortgate interest deduction to $1 million. See example in my previous post... This is the only case where you can borrow money at 12% to invest in a relatively risk free investment of 10% return and still come out ahead of the game. You will have to commit to a long term investment though. NOT short term! But in general, like you said, it's better to be debt free.
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BlueRidge
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: stumpfield]
04/24/06 12:47 PM
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Yep, it's the old adage - it takes money to make money. Rich men can afford to play games that are not wise for we ordinary folks. If Gates loses 100 million on an investment, it makes ZERO difference to his quality of life.
For most of us, losing a mere $100,000 would break us.
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stumpfield
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: BlueRidge]
04/24/06 01:08 PM
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This is not mortgage related but the same applies to your real hard earned money....
Found this in the la times.
Here's the link
Corrected bad link and deleted included text from the article.
Click on link to read the article.
Edited by MikePA (04/24/06 02:00 PM)
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BlueRidge
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Re: Any Advantage To A Mortgage?
[re: stumpfield]
04/24/06 03:13 PM
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I hate these people.
I once overheard a conversation (among some retired folks)about retirement options, and one woman almost angrily proclaimed that, "I bought an ANNUITY!", and glared around at everyone as if to challenge anyone to say anything bad about them. She'd been sold, and you could tell she sure didn't want anyone to upset her financial utopia.
A creature that would take advantage of a senior citizen just to make a buck is a pretty sorry excuse for a human being.
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