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cwarrix
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Compressed air supply in workshop.
04/18/05 09:13 AM
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I want to put my air compressor in the back of my shop, but would like to have outlets in the front and maybe a couple of hanging coil type hoses hanging from above.
What would be a safe pipe type to use? My neighbor used copper to do his small shop, is that safe? What about PVC? Also, what size pipe should I use, 1/2, 3/4, etc.?
The total run will be about 40 feet or so, plus whatever hose I plug into it.
Thanks in advance!
Chuck
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twstanley
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/18/05 11:06 AM
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I have seen pvc used, just make sure your don't exceed the psi rating on it. Make sure you brace it well so you don't flex and break the fitting on the end when you tug on the air hose, etc.
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Bird
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/18/05 11:51 AM
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Iron pipe is probably best, copper second, and PVC is a no-no according to all the experts because of the possibility of it shattering and blowing pieces everywhere. However, I used PVC and never had a problem. Most larger compressors come with some instructions for plumbing. Don't forget to put a drop leg somewhere to drain condensation from the lines.
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: twstanley]
04/18/05 11:58 AM
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Thanks for the quick reply. I hadn't thought about the bracing issue. I think I may go with something a little stronger. Thanks!
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Bird]
04/18/05 12:02 PM
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Thanks for the quick reply Bird. Not sure about cost on iron, I'll compare to copper and see what works. I don't have a lot of stuff going on in this shop, just looking for convenience more than anything. Trying to get the compressor in the back out of the way and a reel with the hose towards the front where it is easy to get to. Thanks for the tip about drainage also, didn't think of that.
Do you guys know what size pipe I should use? Is bigger better?
Thanks!
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Bird
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/18/05 01:00 PM
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Personally, I'd recommend 3/4" although half inch is probably adequate for most purposes. It depends on how much compressor you have and what tools you want to run on it. Sandblasters, sanders, grinders, and 3/4" or larger impact tools need a large volume of air. Many other uses don't need so much.
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Bird]
04/18/05 01:08 PM
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It's an old compressor, all I know is it is 220V and has a 60 Gal tank. I know that doesn't tell much, but that's all I remember about it. It's about 15 years old. All I need to run is an impact now and then, ratchet, die grinder, and a tire chuck to pump up tires of course  I'm not running a body shop or doing any heavy duty work, but I don't want to have to redo it down the road either.
I noticed most of the hoses that come on reels are 3/8", but some are 1/2" I was thinking of getting a 25' hose/reel to hang from the ceiling towards the front of the shop. I think I remember somebody saying you lose pressure the longer you go... But if I use bigger pipe to feed the reel, will that help keep the pressure up?
Thanks again for the help!
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Bird
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/18/05 02:47 PM
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In reply to:
if I use bigger pipe to feed the reel, will that help keep the pressure up?
Yes, but I don't think you need to worry about pressure, it's the volume of air moved that can be a problem. However, I don't think you'll have any problems. The compressor I had in my shop was also a 220 volt, 60 gallon tank, and I used half inch pipe, although it was only about a 25' run to my farthest coupler and less than 10' to the closest ones, and I sometimes hooked three 3/8" 50' hoses together. I had the three 50' hoses in 3/8" size, one 15' hose, and two 10' coiled hoses in 1/4" size. I'd still recommend 3/4" pipe, but for what you intend to do, half inch will work just fine.
I was repairing/rebuilding mechanics' air tools. With a 3/4" impact wrench, I could test it with a quarter inch air hose to see if it was working right, but the tool could not develop its full power because, even though I had enough pressure, you cannot get enough volume through a quarter inch hose (or even a 3/8" hose) for that kind of tool. A 3/8" hose is usually quite adequate for a 1/2" impact or smaller tool.
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Pat
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Bird]
04/18/05 09:30 PM
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I agree with all of Bird's recommendatons. Pipe just isn't that expensive and the savings from going with 1/2 inch are not enough to warrant any possible dificulty.
Although I agree with all Bird's suggestions I want to disagree with a small part of his comments (very small part.) The problem with small and or long lines IS PRESSURE. Not static pressure but the dynamic pressure.. Your compressor may pump up top 125 - 150 PSI and you will measure that (STATIC) pressure at the end of a very long and very small diameter line WHEN THERE IS NO APPRECIABLE FLOW! The problem is that there are dynamic losses caused by flow. There is "friction" in the lines. The larger diameter the lines (and fewer elbos) the less friction is involved when air is flowing.
Do your loved ones a favor. Don't take a chance on PVC. A few bucks saved is NOT WORTH IT.
In addition to the drainable water trap, out at the delivery end you might want to consider a filter to keep anything from anywhere from getting into anyplace it doesn't belong.
A regulator as close to the point of usage as practical is far better than regulating at the compressor. A regulator at the end of the distribution line can maintain say 90 PSI over a significant range of tank pressures, even with line losses. If you depend on the regulator at the tank, the line losses will cause you grief.
My new gravity feed spray guns have regulators and pressure gauges right at the handles. For all situations with air tools that I know of the pressure will be regulated much much better with a regulator near where the air is used as opposed to the compressor if there is an appreciable length of run to the using tool. If you turn the tank pressure down to avoid over pressuring a tool then when air is being consumed the line losses will give you poor performance. If you adjust to get a good air supply at high flow rates then when you stop the tool the pressure will rise to the value at the tank which may not be safe for your tool.
I am getting ready to install my new compressor. It too is a 240VAC 60 gal. I will be installing it under a shed roof on the other side of the shops outer wall so it won't be so noisy and not take up any shop space. I was all ready to start gluing up the distribution system lnes but was advised by those with much more experienced than I to NOT USE PVC. I was told that there is plastic pipe suited to air lines but PVC isn't it and that iron is the recommended way to go. Copper was not discussed. I see no reason why copper wouldn't work but I'd think it would be cost prohibitive compared to iron, especially in 1/2 inch.
Be safe,
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Pat]
04/19/05 12:06 AM
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Hi Pat, thanks for the input. I decided to go with 3/4 copper for three reasons, safety, it was actually cheaper than iron at Lowe's, and at least for me, it is easier to work with. I soldered many a mile of the copper stuff when I did the laundry room project.
Anyway, I have a regulator on the compressor end now and thought it might be a problem since it is the smaller 1/4" connection. It looks like they have a reducer that takes it down right out of the compressor, then into the regulator, then into the quick connect. It seemed to me like this would be a area of resistance??? In electrical terms it would be like having a circuit wired with 6GA wire all the way except for one little 6" run that is 22GA. Just my twisted way of looking at something I don't fully understand... yet!
So, the plan is to come out of the compressor with as big a pipe as I can, somehow tie into the 3/4" copper, have the water trap close to the compressor, then try to reduce bends as much as possible getting to the other end of the shop.
This water trap you and Bird mentioned, I thought it was just a valve to drain water out of the copper line, is it more than that? Is it like the little 6" section of pipe you put in a gas line to catch dirt, only with a valve at the bottom to drain the water? If that's the case, I could come out of the compressor, into a tee, a short section of pipe goes down towards the floor and into the drain vavle, and another section goes up and across the rafters to the other end of the barn/shop?
Now I have to figure out where the regulator goes... the plan was to feed a reel with 50' of 3/8" hose mounted overhead in a convenient spot in the front of the shop where most of the activity is. And with enough reach to get outside to pump up car tires, etc. If I stick with that plan, the regulator would be in the rafters with the reel... guess it isn't too bad to have to use a ladder to adjust it, shouldn't need adjusting too often. I may add a couple of additional outlets and could add individual regulators for them.
Thanks for the tips and ideas guys! This site has been a big help for all of my recent projects.
Chuck
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Pat]
04/19/05 12:09 AM
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Forgot to ask, how would you guys go from the compressor to the first pipe? I mean, do I need a hose or something flexible there, or can I plumb the copper right into the compressor?
Thanks!
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Pat]
04/19/05 12:25 AM
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Just found and interesting thread, thought I'd pass it on
http://www.ridgidforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=002635
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CJDave
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/19/05 06:17 AM
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I just have a piece of tractor hydraulic system hose that used to be part of a front-end loader as my compressor-to-wall piping connection. It seems to be real good at not transferring vibration to the piping system. By going to 3/4" as you indicated that you would, that pipeline becomes a storage reservoir and helps to dampen the pressure drop as air is suddenly taken from an outlet. What I do is drop down at various points with a tee and 3/4" copper and at the low point I have a drip leg with a petcock to drain moisture. Some of my 3/4" drops have regulators on them and some don't. I also have an extra 60-gallon tank upstairs in my shop that serves as an additional air reservoir. I can valve it in and out as I choose. I'm using a 3 HP Ingersoll Rand compressor that I got from Tractor Supply Co. It's a vertical with a 60 gallon tank. I have it in my equipment room, in which I also have the furnace, air conditioner, and high pressure water pump. 
CJDave
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Bird
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/19/05 06:54 AM
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Chuck, of course Pat's right about the static vs. dynamic pressure. I just don't see it as a problem for the distance and uses you mentioned. And of course, he's right about the location for a pressure regulator if you need a very precise pressure at your tool, but I didn't. So I've always had my own pressure regulator at the compressor. I came from the compressor to the regulator/filter with a very short pipe nipple, then from the regulator to my pipe with a high pressure rubber hose to absorb any vibration, although that probably was not necessary. And, yes, I had two drop legs with petcock type valves in my line to drain moisture. There are, of course, much more expensive filters than I used to catch moisture, and there are cheap single use moisture filters you can use right at the tool that are popular for paint spray guns.
I had a wall in my shop with my workbench on one side of the wall and the compressor on the other side so it was a very short run to the workbench where I kept two short hoses connected. One hose had the air gun I used for blowing off or cleaning things and the other I used to connect to air tools to test them after repairs. My pipe then also ran to an outlet by the overhead door.
In fact, you can see some pictures of my shop here.
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: CJDave]
04/19/05 08:43 AM
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Eventually.... after my many other projects, I would like to build on to the back of the barn and move the compressor out there like you mentioned. That would be nice and cut down on noise a lot. I think I'll use your idea of a large diameter hose out of the compressor to the pipe and stay 3/4" to any outlets from there. On the drops, I'll extend the pipe down a few inches past the outlet and put in some kind of valve to drain moisture. I'll probably put the regulator on the one outlet that I need it on, or possible rig it so it is portable enough to move to whatever outlet I want to use. I don't really need the regulator on the outlets I will use for pumping tires, or for the one with an air nozzle for blowing of tools and such. Thanks again for all the ideas!
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Bird]
04/19/05 08:51 AM
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Bird, your garage looks a lot like mine (pole building) except yours is much cleaner! I have my wife convinced the barn is suposed to be cluttered. Note to self, never show her pictures of yours!
At first I was thinking I only needed the one reel in the front that would reach everywhere, and maybe one other outlet. But now, I think I may add a couple more outlets and sort of dedicate their uses. Like you mentioned, one for the air gun thing, and another in the front, maybe even outside for car tires, then the reel for my impact and other small air tools. I think I'll move the regulator to the one drop that I will use the tools that need it most. Mainly because it already steps down to a small pipe right out of the compressor and I'd rather stay 3/4" as far as possible before constricting air flow. The other outlets won't really need regulated air pressure. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I could rig up a portable regulator that I could move to the point of use for the tools that need it. I'll have to kick that one around a bit more.
Thanks for the help and ideas!!
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Chillimau
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/19/05 02:27 PM
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Use 95-5 solder. Produces a stronger joint and can handle the vibration from the compressor. Even with a "flex hose" some vibration will be transmitted to the copper.
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Bird]
04/19/05 11:05 PM
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So, here's another question for ya. I was laying everthing out in the barn today, tryinh to figure out where I want everthing to go. I noticed that the outlet from the compressor is 3/8". If I leave the compressor with a really short 3/8 nipple and immediately go to 3/4, will the 3/8 section be a constriction? Or does it not matter as much since it is going to be so short?
Maybe I'm concerned about nothing. I mean, right now it comes out 3/8 and goes down to 1/4 through the regulator and then back to a 3/8 hose, and I have never had an issue with anything I've tried to use it for.
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Bird
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/20/05 06:55 AM
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Naturally, you can't move as much volume, maintain dynamic pressure, etc. as well as if it were all 3/4", but unless you have some really high consumption tools; i.e., 3/4" or larger impact, big sandblaster, etc., I doubt that you'll ever notice a problem. The 3/4" pipe will, to a limited extent, serve as that much more tank or storage capacity.
You mentioned my shop being clean. I don't like brooms, so I rarely used one in the shop. I had a blow gun with a really long nozzle, and I routinely "swept" the floor starting at the back and blowing everything out the front door, using 3/8" hoses. Now that would keep the compressor running continuously for quite awhile, but I never ran out of all the air volume and pressure I needed.
And if you're like most of us, your quick couplers are also 1/4" so your regulator isn't the only small hole the air has to go through.
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cwarrix
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Bird]
04/20/05 08:31 AM
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Thanks again Bird, I'm just going to go for it. I'll try to use the biggest pipe I can all the way with the least amout of bends an restrictions, sounds like it should be fine. I like the idea of using the blow gun to sweep the floor. That's how my barn gets dirt, I open the door and all the crap blows in. Seems logical to clean it by reversing the process 
Anyway, thanks again for the info. I'll try to take some picks when the job is done in case anybody is interested.
Thanks Again,
Chuck
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JKlender
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: cwarrix]
04/20/05 02:10 PM
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(If you use air to blow off the floor, try to remember to use a disposable paper face mask.)
If you have a plug at the bottom of your tank, you can mount your tank on a wall and use this outlet for your air source. It keeps the compressor up off the floor and the moisture out of your tank. Run all your air lines downhill to good sized drip legs and collect the moisture there. I chainfalled mine up about 6 feet and built hangers out from the wall and down from the joists. I bought my compressor back in the 70's and the tank is still not rotted out. Just a thought, if you are up to it.
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JKlender
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Here is a picture of what I have in my barn now, I haven't had time to pipe anything into my workshop area yet. The black box on the end is a circuit that kills the power to the compressor if it runs for more that 10 minutes at a time. There is a bypass switch on the side to allow you to run it longer. I had an airline blow once when I was gone an the compressor ran for many hours. The garage was full of oil mist when I finally got there. Didn't seem to hurt the compressor though.
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Defective
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: JKlender]
04/20/05 05:35 PM
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Wow...
Just got this scenario stuck in my head...
Trying to have a conversation on the phone when the compressor starts up...
Ever see what happens when a 38 cal slug hits a compressor?
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JKlender
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Defective]
04/20/05 05:53 PM
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The phone is going to be relocated to the area I walled off last fall for a work area. It's pretty low on the priority list right now. I'm still unpacking, wacking trees, and planting grass. Besides, no one ever calls us old retired guys, anyway...sniff....
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Bird
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Re: Compressed air supply in workshop.
[re: Defective]
04/20/05 05:53 PM
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In reply to:
Trying to have a conversation on the phone when the compressor starts up
Yep, I've had it happen, and since my hearing is pretty bad anyway, just had to tell whoever I was talking to to hold on a minute while I went turned the switch off on the compressor.
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