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BrianP
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Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
03/31/03 12:32 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback on how to floor a horse barn. Seemed like a rather contraversial subject though. Since I don't have any horses (yet) I can probably think a bit more about the floor.
Now I'd like input on doors and windows. Again, assuming a horse (they are likely the biggest critter I would have to accomodate) what are good door dimensions for the stalls, entrance doors and so on?
I think windows are nice for light and ventilation. What heigh should they be placed (i.e. how high up from the floor).
This is going to be a modest barn (40' x 25'), and I'd like to get it mostly right. It seems that in most of the free plans, doors & the like are up to the builder.
Thnaks in advance
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: BrianP]
03/31/03 10:53 PM
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Most people go 4' OC for the posts on either side of the door. This gives 4' minus the width of the post. This usually provides a good opening size for use with a 4' wide sliding door.
Horses love windows, especially if they open. They should be covered with a steel (or AL) grill (a barred grill like used on stall fronts) to keep the horses from the windows. It's much easier to get the grills first, then get some cheapo sliding windows the right size to work with the grills. Planning ahead before you build will save you the hassle of having to have custom window grills made. The other option for window grills are the non-welded kits that can be trimmed to size with a sawz-all. We actually did the later and it worked out pretty well. It was easy to trim the width and we didn't have to trim the height (but you could trim every bar if you wanted). I'll try and take a picture and put it up next week (the wife is away w/ the camera). Our windows are 3x3 and about 4' off the ground. A lot of people go w/ the 3x4 wide and that also looks good.
>I'd like to get it mostly right. It seems that in most of the free plans, doors & the like are up to the builder.
I found he best thing is to go around and look at a ton of barns and talk to people about what they like and dislike. The main thing with horses is that everything should be very heavy duty and very safe for the horses (no small protruding objects).
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GERARD
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/01/03 10:01 AM
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We put an opening window in each stall, 4 x 4. Used 1/2 sheet of 3/4 plywood, then bounded it with 2x4 fram arounf the perimiter and an x pattern in the middle. Two hinges allow the whole thing to swing open and let the horses stick their heads out when stall bound. I'd make them at least 4 feet off the ground, much less and a big horse could actually think they could jump out and may try!!
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BrianP
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: GERARD]
04/01/03 03:30 PM
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Thats an interesting solution, especially since you are in upstate NY. This is going to sound like a stupid question, but do you have to heat horse barn? I'm right near Toronto, and I think our winters are milder than yours, and I wouldn't think you have to keep a horse warm during the winter.
Plus, a 4x4 plywood 'window' is not going to get broken by the average horse!
Now 'tall' should the door ways be. I'm guessing 8 feet?
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Benson
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: BrianP]
04/02/03 08:29 AM
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Glass windows are nice if you do not keep an open barn in the winter. They let light in and let the horses look out without letting in the sub zero wind. I live in Southern New England and the winters here are bad enough. I would guess they are much worse in Toronto.
The barn doesn't have to be heated for the horses, they don't really care. It is more important to keep their water a little on the warm side so they are encouraged to keep hydrated. Any water that sits to long in the cold of winter will drop pretty quickly to the freezing point. Horses will drink this cold water, but not as much as they should. Dehydration increases the risk of colic. A hot water heater (and a heated utility room for it) in a barn is a wonderful thing all year round.
Our barn is not heated but we have a kerosene rocket heater we use for our own comfort. Whenever we go up there and it's really cold we turn it on and it's feeling much better in 5-10 minutes. You'd be amazed how cold a barn stays once the cold really sets in and the floor freezes. The kerosene heater is really great for taking the edge off 
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BrianP
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: Benson]
04/02/03 08:41 AM
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Actually, I suspect Toronto is warmer than where you are. I used to live in Montreal (talk about cold!) and it seems that its almost always a fair bit warmer here in winter.
That's a good suggestion about the water & windows. I read elsewhere that heated water bowels are the ticket. I seem to remember that those are self filling, which brings up antoher question: how do you keep the water pipes from freezing in an unheated barn? I guess plastic piping is the name of the game, but I would think the water would eventually freeze anyway.
Its funny, my wife & kids have left all kinds of 'how to build a barn' books all over the house, and these details seem to be missing ....
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Benson
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: BrianP]
04/02/03 09:55 AM
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>I guess plastic piping is the name of the game, but I would think the water would eventually freeze anyway.
You don't, unless you have some complicated self-drainage scheme or compressor to clear the lines.
>Its funny, my wife & kids have left all kinds of 'how to build a barn' books all over the house, and these details seem to be missing ....
That's very typical. I once saw a small tractor review in a horse magazine that said to make sure you get a mid-PTO on your tractor because you can't have a loader without it. A lot of these people know plenty about horses, but that doesn't mean they know much about barns or equipment, especially if they never pickup as much as a pitchfork.
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GERARD
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: BrianP]
04/02/03 10:04 AM
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Don't heat the barn but as stated not a problem for the horses. Just getting them out of the wind is fine for them. We do have heated water buckets which are the best things we ever bought. No more busting ice out of buckets and, as stated, better for the horses cause they drink more. We also have glass windows for light since when the dutch doors are closed they don't let any light in. Basement type windows that open out from the bottom work well since you can put bars on the inside to prtoect the glass from the horses but still open them from the inside to let in some air. Also keeps out even a driving rain while still letting in some air. The self waterers you refered to have pros and cons. If I had 20 stalls they'd be nice. Downside is unless you also spring for meters you can't track when a horse stops drinking (early sign of problems). With only a few horses adding water to the buckets will be the least of your chores, lets you monitor intake, and you don't have to worry about frozen pipes. The heated buckets only draw 40 watts and have a built in thermostat that keeps the water at 50deg.
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Benson
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: GERARD]
04/02/03 10:39 AM
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>Downside is unless you also spring for meters you can't track when a horse stops drinking (early sign of problems).
Excellent point, I forgot about that.
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weedsportpete
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: Benson]
04/02/03 11:45 AM
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We also skipped the auto-filling buckets because of that (not seeing how much they drink), but I sure would like to get the heated buckets.
We managed to find some 10qt flat-sided buckets and used two in a stall and they are much easier to lift. These are not standard sizes. The bigger buckets are very heavy to lift; we dump out the previous day's water and wash out the buckets every morning. Sometimes there is a full bucket of water and it is very heavy for some people. We would like to get more of these smaller buckets, but for now we would rather use more buckets, partially full, than fewer buckets totally full. We use the bucket clips that screw onto the wall and have a little plastic snap tab on them that keep the horses from throwing the buckets around, but they are a minor pain when taking the buckets off, especially heavy buckets.
We bought this farm from a guy who bought it from a dairy farmer. The stalls are all different sizes and there are several different configurations. I'm not going to tell you which is better but I like having a stall door that is not all the way on one side or another of the stall, so when you open the door, you can have the grain and/or water buckets just inside the door for easy access (you don't have to go in). This is handy when horses are ornery, and its faster. If I had all the money in the world, I'd start by getting those stall wall panels with the swing out feeders - easy access from the aisle. Some of our horses have a combination hay rack/grain bin on the wall. One horse uses it, the other immediately pulls out the hay onto the floor (so we gave up on him). So these things don't always keep things cleaner.
Back to doors - we have sliding doors, and I wish we had dutch doors, because 1) sliding the door open covers up the wall next to it, where we could have put a blanket rack or halter hanger, or whatever, and 2) we want to let our horses look out into the aisle for curiosity / socializing, but with sliding doors, we have to use stall guards/chains across the doorway, which are not going to hold a horse back as well as the bottom of a dutch door.
Pete
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors *DELETED*
[re: BrianP]
04/12/03 12:38 PM
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Post deleted by SteveB
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:20 PM Attachment
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The wife got back w/ the camera. Here's some photos.
First the stall fronts and sliding doors.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:23 PM Attachment
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I used National sliding door hardware with the "nail on board" type of track. I would highly recommend this type of track compared to the ones secured w/ lag bolts. Simpler and stronger.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:25 PM Attachment
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This type of track alowed me to nail a board to allong the top of the stall fronts. Since my stalls were built free standing in a clear span building this I did this to stiffen up the stall fronts.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:26 PM Attachment
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Edge protectors.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:27 PM Attachment
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Wall braces.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:29 PM Attachment
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Feed tubs. We went with the rubberized type. A little extra time on the table saw to knock of the sharp corners off the support rails helps prevent the horses from doing it themselves.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:30 PM Attachment
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We put a kickboard acrross the entrance. Keeps the shavings in and provides something for the sliding door to ride on.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:31 PM Attachment
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Stall mats on top of stone dust.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:32 PM Attachment
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Barred window from inside.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:32 PM Attachment
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From outside.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:35 PM Attachment
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The pole barn kit I bought used the same kind of National "nail on board" slider tracks. The Fabral metal siding trim came with cover for this type of slider that seals the whole thing up perfectly.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:38 PM Attachment
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The kit also came w/ extruded aluminum "Easy Rails" for constructing the exterior sliding doors. These made for extremely light, strong, and simple to build interlocking doors. They are absolutely fantastic.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:40 PM Attachment
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Easy Rail doors from the inside.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/12/03 06:42 PM Attachment
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And the most important thing in the barn (except the fly system), the 2' fan on a thermostat. This is a little overkill for a barn this size, but the barn is never hotter inside than out (in the summer anyways  ).
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RobS
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/13/03 06:41 AM
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Steve, that's an impressive barn! I'm not a horse person so most of the details are beyond me but your workmanship and attention to detail are first rate. I'm hoping to build a barn in a couple of years... I'll be sure to check back to your photos for ideas. Nice work
Rob
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cowboydoc
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/13/03 09:41 AM
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Overall your barn and stalls look great.
One thing. I see where you cut out a couple bars to be able to feed. It's not a question of it but when one of your horses is going to get seriously hurt there. If they ever get scared or bored they are going to try to go through that space with a leg, head, etc. Save yourself from future vet bills and heartache and come up with something now that they can't get a leg or head through.
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: cowboydoc]
04/13/03 12:54 PM
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You really think so Richard? Up in this neck of the woods every stall I've ever seen has had a feed opening above the feed tub. I saw some stall grills at a show once that had a feed opening with a door on it, but I can honestly say I've never seen one in use in a barn. The opening is sized so a horse can't get their head thru, maybe only stick their nose out a few inches. Worst case senerio, I don't think these grills would hold a horse at all. They are the cheap non-welded type where the bars just sit in holes in the metal channels. They were easy to put up and the right price at the time, and actually they've worked just fine. I bet a horse could pull one of those bars right out if he ever had the mind to. Just bend one bar a little and it would pop right out.
How do you access you're feed tub? We try to be very safe with our stalls so I'll want to look into it some more. This is why we went with those hanging rubber feed tub. Where we used to board our horses they had the plastic corner tubs. You would think they would seem safe enough. But the horse had chewed on the lip of the tub and it had a few little cracks. One of our horses caught its eyelid on the jagged edge and tore it pretty good. Fortunately it healed up fine. We put a new feed tub in there but it was back to the same condition within months. The rubber tubs have been working out much better.
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/13/03 04:25 PM
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Listen to the man, I don't always agree with him but he has had the experience with numbers and youngsters who can get into trouble for fun. bcs
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SteveB
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: Justaplain]
04/13/03 05:59 PM
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I know Richard knows his stuff when it comes to horses, that's why I asked him how he does it
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cowboydoc
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/14/03 08:15 AM
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Steve,
Most of the stalls have a door on them that you open to feed the animals and close it when you're done. Your full grown horses may not get a head through there but if you ever have any little ones they can. Alot of times horses will fight or kick back and forth across the stalls. Then you just have a horst that is feeling good on a certain day and is bucking around in the stall. This is where they will slip a leg through somewhere. If those stall fronts are really that cheap you may want to think about those too. It's your decision. I'm just pointing some things out. I have just learned over the years that anything a horse can tear up they will tear up. Anyplace they can get hurt on they will get hurt on.  You certainly can't put them in a rubber room but the stuff you can do something about is easy to do.
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Benson
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: cowboydoc]
04/14/03 12:26 PM
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I've never heard of a feed hole incident, but I can certainly see how it could happen. I have heard of a young horse getting its hoof stuck between the bars. I guess his little hoof was just the right size to go in one direction then get stuck. This happened where we used to keep our horses. One guy had to scale the stall wall and sit on the horse's head to keep it from thrashing and someone else had to go and find a big pipe to stick between the bars and bust the weld off. The horse came out of it okay though.
I'm under the opinion that things should be designed to be sturdy, but be able to give if required. I know many people consider this essential for fencing and I think the same is true for stalls. Let's face it, there's not to many stalls or fences out there that are going to hold a horse if he doesn't want to be held.
I don't think our current stall fronts are a problem for our two ol' timers. They've been living in stalls with feed openings all their lives. But I have been looking for an excuse to learn how to weld. Hmmm, perhaps some fancy new stall fronts, welded, powder coated, and with a feed door is just the excuse I was looking for.
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cowboydoc
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: Benson]
04/14/03 12:37 PM
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I'm under the opinion that things should be designed to be sturdy, but be able to give if required. I know many people consider this essential for fencing and I think the same is true for stalls.
Well like I said to each his own. I think a stall should be bull proof. If you get horses to fighting or a horse that decides to kick the wall you don't want that wall giving. You want it solid. Most stalls are that way. The stalls we have you can keep Belgians in. But everybody has to make their own decisions. I just point out what has been my experiences right or wrong. There's always alot of opinions on how something should be done. 
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Benson
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: cowboydoc]
04/14/03 04:50 PM
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>If you get horses to fighting or a horse that decides to kick the wall you don't want that wall giving.
I agree a horse kicks shouldn't generally be a problem, although a good squarely landed kick is easily capable of cracking a 2x6 liner.
I've seen a horse that was chained to an eye hook throw its head up and straighten out that 3/8" diameter piece of steel like it was a piece of licorice. I've also seen a 1100# horse drag a 60' steel panel round pen 150 yards before it fell apart around her. All I know is that I have seen the average horse is capable of producing an incredible amount of force, never mind what Belgians can do. From what I've seen I don't think most stalls would stand a chance against a truely motivated and panicked horse. Perhaps in such extreme cases failure is better than entrapment. Just my humble opinion 
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LazyJ_Arabians
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: Benson]
04/15/03 11:15 AM
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I've learned to appreciate a swinging stall door and the fact that my horses all know the latch is the weakest link if they need emergency freedom. I've re-attached maybe four latches in the two years I've maintained this philosophy. Kinda like when my farrier nags me because my wife's Tenn Walker mare won't tolerate being tied, something always gets broke. I just remind him she'll ground tie just perfect. A horse appreciates a stall for the safety and solitude to allow a few hours of REM sleep and under normal circumstances doesn't want their "bedroom door" open but can relax knowing they can get out if they need to. You'll never read about this theory in "Western Horseman" but it makes sense to me given my understanding of my horses.
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cowboydoc
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: LazyJ_Arabians]
04/15/03 01:59 PM
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You're right that you'll never read about any of that anywhere.  It goes against all of the research on horses that is for sure. Given the option, in research studies, just about all horses preferred to be outside, even in the rain or cold, rather than kept in a confined area. It's completely against a horses nature to be kept inside or in a confined area. As far as REM sleep goes they have found that horses only require a minute amount. You can read about this in the last few issues of Equus. There has been quite a bit of research on this. They found that horses can get REM sleep under any conditions. They subjected horses to heat, cold, loud noise, no noise, etc. and it didn't make any difference in sleep. A horse will adapt to the surroundings in a very short time.
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BrianP
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: SteveB]
04/15/03 03:52 PM
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That is one sweet looking barn. I don't think I'll share the picture with my wife, however. I want her to think I'm doing a good job.
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LazyJ_Arabians
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: cowboydoc]
04/15/03 04:57 PM
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And I keep reading in the mags where horses sleep as soundly standing up as laying down. Doesn't take much barn time to make you wonder where that idea came from. In my barn on a calm night in the wee hours you'll find exactly one horse, a rotating lookout, standing and semi-asleep and the rest will be belly up and semi-unconscious. That doesn't happen when they're outside, you rarely find more than one or two even laying down?!?
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Benson
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: LazyJ_Arabians]
04/16/03 07:52 AM
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Our two horses always slept lying down in their stalls where we used to board them. After we brought them home a couple years ago it took almost a year before they resumed this practice. Now sometimes we have to go in their stalls and hook a lead rope on and give them a tug or two to get them up. Lazy beasts 
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cowboydoc
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Re: Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors
[re: LazyJ_Arabians]
04/16/03 07:57 AM
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Every horse will adapt to their surroundings. If you force horse to be inside then they will adapt. Over time if they associate the barn with their "safe zone" that is where they will lay down. If you watch horses in the wild they will have a safe place that they go at night as well. Mostly during the day you will only see the younger horses lay down. You rarely, if ever, see the mothers lay down. A stud hardly ever lays down if there are mares around. It also depends on the age of your horses. An older horse will lay down alot. They do this because they are getting or have arthritis or other deg. problems. Getting off their feet doesn't have alot to do with sleep but has to do with some relief.
Once we start isolating horses and take them out of their natural environment they will develop all kinds of un-natural behaviors. It's impossible to make any kind of assumptions about horse behavior from a captivity standpoint. In their natural habitat horses are just as wild as any other animal. It is their remarkable ability to adapt that allows them to survive in our conditions. Horses don't have half the health or any behavior problems in the wild. You don't see colic, founder, etc. You also don't see cribbing, weaving, etc. in the wild either. Horses have adapted to even New York City! But to get an accurate picture of what horses really do and need you have to watch them in the wild to see what they really do not what we've adapted them to.
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